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Four Corners: Ice Rush.

"Some are cutting ice with heroin to guarantee mental addiction."

*Bangs head against wall.*

Decent doco though, thanks for sharing. The only reason it's so big in the country towns is because of epic boredom and low socio-economic prospects.
 
there was an underlying theme of childhood neglect/abuse stemming from most of these users/cooks. Makes sense that the bikies would 'groom' these kids into a life of crime and drugs. I wish they did have more anonymous middle to upper class users to really get a sense that this is a universal problem that doesn't discriminate.

They also didn't really take the next step and offer possible action plans or methods to curb this problem. Why not include talk of possibly oral dexamp maintenance programs, free testing centres for purity, State of the art rehab facilities at a subsidised price. Something bold, it has to be bold and innovative because this inst going away.
 
This is a heavily biased documentary, it clearly goes out of its way in an attempt to show the worst side of methamphetamine use it can, and to me comes across as implying that these worst case scenario outcomes are practically the norm for ice users. The quote highlighted by Acanthus is a prime example of propaganda and deceit in an attempt to make the problem seem more sinister than it actually is.

I can't help but feel that kid who talked about cooking is full of shit, I have a really hard time believing that people who have the resources and know how to synthesize methamphetamine would go to the trouble of teaching drug addicted 15 year old kids how to do it and then trusting them to do it on their own. I don't think a drug addled 15 year old who has been up for four days would be very hard for the Police to get talking and surely criminals involved in the manufacture of methamphetamine would draw a similar conclusion. There is always the chance that he was truthful when talking about his own circumstances, but I can't help but feel his claim that it is commonplace for criminal organisations to exploit drug addicted teens as cooks is hyperbolic at best.

The shortage of treatment options in rural Australia is a troubling situation that clearly needs to be remedied. If the claim made in the documentary that the average age of ice users is falling in regional area's is correct then this is certainly a problem and something needs to be done to address it.

I think it is unfortunate that while this documentary attempts to highlight some real issues surrounding methamphetamine use in regional Australia, it cannot help but resort to using scare tactics and painting a picture that exaggerates the problem to do it.

It was also ridiculous when they referred to 'meth' as a cut version of ice, I understand that meth is a slang term for the lesser purity product that the lady purchased, but there are plenty of other slang names they could have referred to it as which would be much less confusing. As Bluelighters this is obvious, but to a lot of people who watched the program I feel like this could cause some confusion as to what ice actually is.
 
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^ I have to agree with your assessment. I also feel they neglected the real issue at hand - why these people are getting into meth, especially at such a young age (if the age angle is accurate). If it wasn't meth, it would just be another drug, admittedly perhaps a less harmful one, but there are underlying issues here being ignored in favor of fear mongering.
 
drug_mentor said:
I can't help but feel that kid who talked about cooking is full of shit, I have a really hard time believing that people who have the resources and know how to synthesize methamphetamine would go to the trouble of teaching drug addicted 15 year old kids how to do it and then trusting them to do it on their own.
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I knew a 'cook' through a friend that had a young kid coming over and teaching him how it's done, think he was about 16. The older cook was clearly unstable and has been busted since. Ramshackle synthesis with very little proper equipment. I think there's quite a few of these ramshackle cooks that can turn out some half-reacted rubbish - don't have to very smart to do that.

Was talking to some people yesterday that were certain meth and ice are two separate drugs (Ice isn't methamphetamine according to them) 30-50 year olds talking about smack based pills and when trying to figure out what a drug was from a description from a younger woman they diagnosed 'fantasy for sure, mate' (was a tablet and the effects sounded exactly like MDMA to me) You just have to shake your head...so many people are so set in their beliefs.

Haven't watched the doco yet will tonight. Agree that it's so important for programs like this to be clear and accurate.
 
Was talking to some people yesterday that were certain meth and ice are two separate drugs (Ice isn't methamphetamine according to them) 30-50 year olds talking about smack based pills and when trying to figure out what a drug was from a description from a younger woman they diagnosed 'fantasy for sure, mate' (was a tablet and the effects sounded exactly like MDMA to me) You just have to shake your head...so many people are so set in their beliefs.
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Ugh :p I don't bother even arguing with people about stuff like that anymore. Can't convince someone who thinks they're an expert because their mate told them something while they were smashed 2 years ago.
 
drug_mentor said:
I can't help but feel that kid who talked about cooking is full of shit, I have a really hard time believing that people who have the resources and know how to synthesize methamphetamine would go to the trouble of teaching drug addicted 15 year old kids how to do it and then trusting them to do it on their own. I don't think a drug addled 15 year old who has been up for four days would be very hard for the Police to get talking and surely criminals involved in the manufacture of methamphetamine would draw a similar conclusion. There is always the chance that he was truthful when talking about his own circumstances, but I can't help but feel his claim that it is commonplace for criminal organisations to exploit drug addicted teens as cooks is hyperbolic at best.
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I watched this with my wife and we both said the same thing. No doubt there is *some* element of truth to what the kid is saying, but as a whole - his story simply doesn't add up, right down to him telling it, on TV without any distortion of his identity. It just doesn't make any sense, on a lot of levels. But sure there is some truth behind it, no doubt.

The older lady on the other hand, I completely believed and her story and with her daughter, that was just fucking tragic.

All in all, not a terrible doco.. Ice is a terrible drug...

This actually got my wife and I talking about our beliefs in legalisation; whilst we definitely 100% agree with decriminalising ice and legalising everything else - including heroin (for a LOT of very good reasons) - it is actually quite hard to argue for legalisation of ICE. (Though it should definitely be decriminalised).
 
This actually got my wife and I talking about our beliefs in legalisation; whilst we definitely 100% agree with decriminalising ice and legalising everything else - including heroin (for a LOT of very good reasons) - it is actually quite hard to argue for legalisation of ICE. (Though it should definitely be decriminalised).
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I agree. I mean I have to establish that yeah, I believe that possession should 100% be decriminalized, turning users into criminals achieves nothing. But beyond that, most of the harms methamphetamine causes to it's users are inherent to the drug itself, not side effects of illegality that could be addressed by different controlled and legal distribution systems (like MDMA, opiates, hallucinogens, marijuana, etc). No amount of legality will make it less neurotoxic, less addictive, less likely to alter people's behavior, less likely to harm various organs (kidneys and cardiovascular system, directly, but the whole body indirectly via self harm, lack of sleep, etc. which seem to emerge in the majority of addicts).

Stimulants in general are a hard sell for legalization, for the same reason. Likewise, I would never in a million years support the legalization of cocaine, it's just too toxic in it's natural state.

The best I could get behind, given what we currently know, is oral dexamphetamine, made in abuse-proof formulas to prevent snorting/injecting (I know it's generally not the done thing here, but IV amphetamine use - racemic amphetamine at that, although god knows what the appeal is - is a big problem in some areas of the world, so it could become a problem if availability was increased by legalization if steps weren't taken to prevent it). Even then, I'm iffy, given the failure of the use of d-amp in attempts to create replacement therapy for meth addicts. Or perhaps another stimulant synthesized without the neurotoxicity and kidney damage (which granted could be a side effect of poor production methods, as I don't believe it occurs with pharmaceutical amphetamines) of meth or the awful cardiovascular damage of cocaine, a shorter duration to prevent it messing with sleep as much as meth does - a milder version of a methylphenidate/MDPV style dopamine reuptake inhibitor? Of course the latter is famous for inducing erratic behavior, sexual misconduct and fiendishness, and I've even seen similar fiendishness in people injecting methylphenidate.

In the end, I dunno. I'm just thinking out loud (metaphorically). I guess like every drug (and each individually), we need to be careful as we move along the spectrum from complete prohibition towards a form of regulated legality, taking small steps and scientifically evaluating the effect each time until we hit the ideal point which minimizes the overall harm caused by both the drug itself and the attempts to control it's use. We know the current system is failing horribly, but until we risk the first step along that spectrum and evaluate the effects, we won't know for sure which system will work. But my suspicion is that when the dust settles in a century or so, stimulants will be the class of drug under the tightest control.
 
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The problem with decriminalistion is that it leaves production in the hands of dodgy backyard clandestine cooks, drug syndicates or both.

Assuming that there would still be a demand for meth in that kind of environment. Who knows?
 
The problem with decriminalistion is that it leaves production in the hands of dodgy backyard clandestine cooks, drug syndicates or both.

Assuming that there would still be a demand for meth in that kind of environment. Who knows?
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I agree, that it is a problem. But taking all of the other drugs out of their hands would shut down a lot of their income and infrastructure, which would hopefully serve to slow the spread of meth, possibly halt it entirely. Nobody just wakes up and decides to try meth one day, they have it offered to them by their weed/pill dealer, or someone passes a pipe at a party, or they take it because they couldn't get any pills for the night, and so on. If the rest of the chemical spectrum was available to various degrees through regulated and legal channels, I can't see a lot of people bothering with seeking out what would be an extremely underground scene of overpriced (the price would have to go up to compensate their lack of income from other chemicals, I'd think, but I'm no economist, although I do serious doubt people would pay more than the already exorbitant price meth demands), dirty, black market meth. Of course there'll always be some, and online distribution would remain, at least for a generation or two, but eventually I imagine (or maybe just hope) it would die out, especially with all the extra funding available to go into treatment, and shutting down large scale distribution. And there's always the possibility of a safer stimulant being found to replace it as a legal substitute.

I mean honestly, I have a hard time imagining many of those country kids would want to waste their time smoking meth (god knows what you do in a country town on meth - other than smoke more meth in a dingy room and generally tweak out, I guess, I really don't see the appeal) if they had a legal source for clean MDMA, ketamine, acid, etc. Those drugs aren't without their problems, but they're a hell of a lot more engaging than sucking off a crackpipe and picking your body apart or wiping your TV screen down for hours. And yeah, I know not all meth users end up like that, but look at Western Europe. Meth never took off there, despite attempts by the powers that be, except amongst very small and specific circles, because they have such easy and cheap access to a wide variety of interesting substances (putting aside the RC issue, which is another thing entirely).
 
I'm all for generous end use amount of all drugs to be decriminalised, say under 3 grams of anything or 5 trips or 5 pills etc etc but yeah you get the point. Whatever the set limits are, with it all known to everyone so it doesnt clog up courts and stuff peoples lives for end use.

As for shards, someone mentioned in a post a while ago in another forum here that in Canada shards were hardly ever seen in their local cities and were really looked down on but people were quite open and didnt look down on if you take speed tabs which he said were very common and popular, relatively low dose speed tabs I think they said.

Maybe an idea would be to get some hardcore addicts off the shards by offering them cheap pharmaceutical speed pills that could only be taken orally and not abused other ways, to help them slowly withdrawal from using the really high potency shards. This way if they did that via a doc and scripts they could also be assessed for anything else and be basically checked over.

I dont know what the answer is but I dont think many people wont more people addicted to ice.

I enjoyed the doco, even with the inaccuracies that have been mentioned. But I like watching shows and docos about drug use and addicts etc. I still find it hard to watch people shooting up, have never liked watching it and I tend to look away, i hate needles in general tho, even getting shots or blood taken I am a big wuss.
 
poledriver said:
I enjoyed the doco, even with the inaccuracies that have been mentioned. But I like watching shows and docos about drug use and addicts etc. I still find it hard to watch people shooting up, have never liked watching it and I tend to look away, i hate needles in general tho, even getting shots or blood taken I am a big wuss.
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Same here :) maybe a good thing for me in retrospect.
 
Maybe an idea would be to get some hardcore addicts off the shards by offering them cheap pharmaceutical speed pills that could only be taken orally and not abused other ways, to help them slowly withdrawal from using the really high potency shards. This way if they did that via a doc and scripts they could also be assessed for anything else and be basically checked over.
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Problem is that this has been tried before in numerous studies and trial programs, and generally didn't end well - amphetamines are just too different from opioids, pharmacologically, for it to work (there's no blockage effect, or increased tolerance, as there is with moderate - high dose methadone, and with bupe, and you can't ''maintain'' someone on amphetamines because they eventually have to stop dosing and sleep, which means dealing with the comedown and the cravings on a nightly basis, and even regular d-amp will still get people tweaked and mess with their psychology - then the issue of dosing, even XR formulations wouldn't work at once a day, especially for people who don't live 9 - 5 lifestyles). The whole addiction with meth is as much the rush and the lifestyle as the question of dopamine levels, d-amp isn't going to replace that for most people, especially since they can get dosed then go home and immediately pick up the pipe/needle, all it will do is worsen their chance of staying off meth by giving them a daily comedown and continuing to artificially raise their dopamine levels and mess with their psychology. Hell, even with all the barriers that exist in opioid replacement therapy to prevent patients getting high, plenty still manage it (I did it at least 2 - 3 times a month for most of my first year on bupe, even on 24mg and with few takeaway doses). And none of those barriers would exist with a d-amp program unless you drug tested the patient every 72 hours. Do you give them TA doses? methadone quickly builds a vast tolerance and comes as a liquid formulation which makes injection a pain (although many still do it), and bupe has dimnished returns with an eventual ceiling dose, neither of them are particularly recreational, whereas d-amp certainly is.

I'm sure there's a small portion of users it would help, but I think (or would like to think) if it was a viable solution for the majority it would have been implemented by now. And I just don't see it working.
 
I also doubt the story that the main interviewee is telling, about him being a major cook at 15 and such. Doesn't make good business sense and sounds like he would be way too much of a liability, and he's saying all this with no face/voice/location protecting? Surely his big-player distributors wouldn't take kindly to that? :-S

Is there anyone that beleives that what he was saying is basically the truth, sans the expected inaccuracy in anyone's verbal testimony?
 
Glad I waited till 33 to try this drug. Even a few years ago I probably would have ended up severely dependant.
I wish the program had have shown the other 90% of users that don't go murdering people and wandering the streets like extras from the walking dead. Some, allot of users do boring shit like their housework or practice diminished scales for 6 hours and call it a day.

This drug also needs better information about its effects. Super calm, chatty and a bit sleepy was not at all what I had expected.

Same old fear based properganda that does more harm than good.
This drug has so many ways that it could grab you. That's what's the adds should explain
 
pisspotnrock said:
tag-a-jake
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Lol

This drug also needs better information about its effects. Super calm, chatty and a bit sleepy was not at all what I had expected
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Could not agree more, I imagined crystal meth to make me far more charged up. Calm, collected and chatty wasn't really the expectation. The drug is far more pleasent having small amounts once in awhile, when any media has covered it, it only highlights how people behave when they've had high doses over multiple days in a row.
 
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