Forgiveness

[MrM]

MrM, I shouldn't have used the term 'ego extinction' -- that's a loaded term, since extinction implies permanence. It's a good ideal to set one's sights on, but I think a more reasonable short-term goal, as you alluded to, is keeping the ego subordinate to the superego, so that its machinations are always in service to a greater good.

Fair enough.

I just brushed up on my Id, Ego and Super Ego (thanks wikipedia). I think my own view of my mind doesn't seperate the ego and super ego quite like Freud would.

He describes the ego as 'logical' and the super ego as 'moralising'. I suspect my problem with this lies with the fact i tend to try to moralise logically. Where would you say this leaves me in terms of ego and superego?

I guess the other important difference between the two (allegedly) is that the ego looks out for self interest and the super ego for others. If i moralise based on logic maybe this just means my super-ego is logical rather than religious or spiritual, but the important distinction remains that the interests of one part of my mind that concerns itself with self (ego) is sometimes in conflict with another (super ego)?

 

[The_Winner]

I think we can control the mind with the mind. Self awareness is nothing if not a feedback loop of some kind and meditation (for me at least) involves temporarily altering the nature of the thoughts in my mind to alter my experience of my mind.

Practicing meditation is intended to arise your awareness/mindfulness of the present moment (a state without any thoughts, but just pure awareness of what is, in which you can use your mind, if needed).

I don't agree with this idea the ego or conscious mind are the source of delusions and some 'higher awareness' we have is illusion free. No one understand the universe completely, or even some small % of that. Given we have at best incomplete understandings of any given part of reality i would argue that we are all, in part, deluded. Some of us have models of reality that sinc up better or more usefully with the universe than others, but no one has it perfect. I don't think the ego causes these delusions and without it we'd all know better. I think delusions are an inescapable reality of not knowing everything perfectly but making an effort anyway.

I'm not claiming that once you become totally aware, you will magically understand all the secrets of the universe. I'm just claiming that you would see reality the "best way possible" to see from your perspective. You wouldn't care for the unknown in that state of being, since you would understand, that something, that can't be known is not important.

I just can't agree with you, that ego doesn't create delusions. There's actually so many examples of it, that I wouldn't know, where to start.
For example, one performs worse at something than the other. One's ego would often create a feeling of worthlessness - "I'm worse than him" or something along those lines, which is a delusion.
Or you get into a conversation with someone and you start to argue over something feeling the need "to win" the argument and that often leads into negative emotions for you and your conversation partner.
That's also a delusion your ego creates. A delusion, that somehow you will be better off, if you win the argument. But it's only to feed your ego.

You nor the others will really gain from these delusions, but often the opposite.
If in the first example you could just truly feel happy for the other person for his good performance you would both be much better off.
And if you didn't have this delusion, that you need to win every argument, you wouldn't create suffering from it and you could listen to others with much more open mind yourself.

I'm not saying everyone has exactly these ego delusions, but these are one of the most popular ones, I guess.

 

[infectedmushroom]

I think the model;

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

is the process which im sure myself and many people go through subconsciously to attempt to forgive. If you smoothly move through the process, you're left with the ability to forgive and healthily remove residual negative feelings and emotions towards that person/event.

 

[MrM]

Practicing meditation is intended to arise your awareness/mindfulness of the present moment (a state without any thoughts, but just pure awareness of what is, in which you can use your mind, if needed).

I see this as the same as what i said - changing the thoughts in your mind to change your experience of your mind. Focusing on the present moment without any other thoughts getting in the way is still thought, and 'pure awareness' or similar is a state of mind that can be experienced.

I'm not claiming that once you become totally aware, you will magically understand all the secrets of the universe. I'm just claiming that you would see reality the "best way possible" to see from your perspective. You wouldn't care for the unknown in that state of being, since you would understand, that something, that can't be known is not important.

I completely disagree with this. You don't just 'see' or 'understand' without thinking or effort. Even when you literally see something and do understand what it is (like a bannana) your brain is doing all sorts of things to examine the colour yellow, edge detection on the sides of the bananna, memory recall on previous bananna seeing experiences to put it in context, etc. I don't think that surpressing the conscious mind is likely to improve the ability to see and understand, rather the opposite.

I also think it is a mistake to suggest either that anything you don't understand can't be that important or that anything that isn't known is unknowable and likewise not important. There are too many things that used to be in this catagory that we now do know and understand (even if not perfectly) and have subsiquently found to be important.

I just can't agree with you, that ego doesn't create delusions. There's actually so many examples of it, that I wouldn't know, where to start.
For example, one performs worse at something than the other. One's ego would often create a feeling of worthlessness - "I'm worse than him" or something along those lines, which is a delusion.

I am not arguing the ego doesn't create delusions. I am arguing that it isn't the only source of such mistakes and that it can also be the cure.

If i think i am not as good as someone else based on some line of thought then i am mistaken. Individual worth can't be calculated by how good someone performs at, say, basketball. My conscious understanding of this fact is what prevents me feeling down every time i see someone who is better at sport than me.

Or you get into a conversation with someone and you start to argue over something feeling the need "to win" the argument and that often leads into negative emotions for you and your conversation partner.
That's also a delusion your ego creates. A delusion, that somehow you will be better off, if you win the argument. But it's only to feed your ego.

As a theoretical example i would agree this is a good example of the ego causing friction. However i wouldn't agree than any argument or discussion is necessarily about the ego driven 'need' to win. I am arguing now and i think i am correct, but if i knew i was correct i probably wouldn't even bother with the discussion (and i might well be wrong anyway).

You are taking an opposing point to mine. I'm assuming this is no more because of your ego driven need to beat me than vice versa?

I enjoy a good discussion, even if agreement isn't achieved. Does that mean i'm arguing due to my hedonistic nature rather than my evil ego?

 

[The_Winner]

I see this as the same as what i said - changing the thoughts in your mind to change your experience of your mind. Focusing on the present moment without any other thoughts getting in the way is still thought, and 'pure awareness' or similar is a state of mind that can be experienced.

I guess I see now why you haven't understood me (nor what is meditation). I encourage you to try out this little experiment on yourself, which will reveal to you, that you and your thought are separate. Close your eyes and try to not think anything for about half a minute.
You will see, that you are not in control and your thought will start racing.

Trying to be aware of the present moment is not thought, it's awareness with no thoughts.

I completely disagree with this. You don't just 'see' or 'understand' without thinking or effort. Even when you literally see something and do understand what it is (like a bannana) your brain is doing all sorts of things to examine the colour yellow, edge detection on the sides of the bananna, memory recall on previous bananna seeing experiences to put it in context, etc. I don't think that surpressing the conscious mind is likely to improve the ability to see and understand, rather the opposite.

Yes, I agree that it takes effort to "see without thinking", especially when you are just starting out with it. But I also think the more aware you are and the less you think, the deeper you see. Thinking is a tool, not a necessity to function.
Think of how little you actually control of your body. There's all kinds of uncontrollable, but vital processes going on all the time inside you.
Now think of all life and of its ability to think. Why do you believe thinking to be so important for awareness? I know we can use it to solve all sorts of problems, but that doesn't mean, that we need to think to be aware/to perceive.

I also think it is completely silly to suggest either that anything you don't understand can't be that important or that anything that isn't known is unknowable and likewise not important. There are too many things that used to be in this catagory that we now do know and understand (even if not perfectly) and have subsiquently found to be important.

I was talking about the worrying over something, that is unknown, referring to your previous post, in which you said "no-one understands the universe perfect" etc.
I have nothing against peoples passion of exploring the unknown or inventing new technology and actually am all for it.
Btw, if you aren't aware of this, many great insights of great men have actually come from no thought.

I am not arguing the ego doesn't create delusions. I am arguing that it isn't the only source of such mistakes and that it can also be the cure.

what is/are the other source(s)? And how can ego be the cure?

If i think i am not as good as someone else based on some line of thought then i am mistaken. Individual worth can't be calculated by how good someone performs at, say, basketball. My conscious understanding of this fact is what prevents me feeling down every time i see someone who is better at sport than me.

I'm happy to hear, that you can do that with your mind, but I know many people, (actually most I have met in my life) including myself, whose mind has developed these automatic negative thoughts, which work the other way around of your very rational mind. I'm not only talking of sports here, but all situations, where even a slightest competitiveness can be applied. Schools are a great example also.

Maybe you don't understand, because you haven't experienced it, but I doubt it hard.

As a theoretical example i would agree this is a good example of the ego causing friction. However i wouldn't agree than any argument or discussion is necessarily about the ego driven 'need' to win. I am arguing now because i think i am correct, but if i knew i was correct i probably wouldn't even bother with the discussion (and i might well be wrong anyway).

You are taking an opposing point to mine. I'm assuming this is no more because of your ego driven need to beat me than vice versa?

I enjoy a good discussion, even if agreement isn't achieved. Does that mean i'm arguing due to my hedonistic nature rather than my evil ego?

I wasn't directing my example towards you, merely spoke of a very common ego delusion.
Also I was not saying that any discussion is ego driven, was just presenting an example, in which ego often does its magic.

 

[MrM]

I guess I see now why you haven't understood me (nor what is meditation). I encourage you to try out this little experiment on yourself, which will reveal to you, that you and your thought are separate. Close your eyes and try to not think anything for about half a minute.
You will see, that you are not in control and your thought will start racing.

I think i know what you are getting at. What little experience of meditation i do have is enough that i've encountered the basic problem of the racing mind that doesn't shut down on command, not to mention my occasional insomnia.

I would perceive the cause differently to you though.

Conscious thought is the top most layer of a complex mental process. My conscious thoughts as i type this sentance are about what i am typing and why, but in the background my heart is still beating, i am still breathing and all the subconscious processes involved with remembering words, typing, moving my fingers etc are working away to produce the very top layer that i am aware of.

When you try to shut down the topmost layer of thoughts you start to notice those below. Consciously focusing on nothing is a lot more difficult than you might think as a result, but i don't consider that this means consciousness is somehow 'less' or subordinate to a higher awareness, almost the opposite.

The closest i get to focusing totally on the present moment is when i fly the trickier faster rc aircraft i own. I have to be totally focused on controlling a little object that is not myself off in the distance for about 10 mins or so until the battery runs down, and i have no other conscious thoughts in my head except those dealing with the moment to moment requirements of controlling a fast aircraft remotely. It's also quite fun I still think of this as thought though.

Why do you believe thinking to be so important for awareness? I know we can use it to solve all sorts of problems, but that doesn't mean, that we need to think to be aware/to perceive.

Because the way i see it whenever i have awareness that is a form of thought, it may just be an unusual form if i, for example, use meditation to alter my mind and focus my awareness inwards.

what is/are the other source(s)? And how can ego be the cure?

I would say one example is the one i used earlier - the immediate anger response to someone hitting you can occur entirely without logical thought (freud described the ego as logical) and yet through logical thought i can surpress this response. I'm not sure you agree with this or not though.

I wasn't directing my example towards you, merely spoke of a very common ego delusion.
Also I was not saying that any discussion is ego driven, was just presenting an example, in which ego often does its magic.

Fair enough, i wasn't offended.

 

[The_Winner]

I think you have consciousness, thought and awareness all mixed up.
As you said yourself, your mind doesn't shut down on command. Doesn't that prove to you, that you (your awareness of your mind not shutting down) and your thought are separate?

I consider consciousness to be the same as awareness. There are different levels of it. If one lets one's mind run rampant without any awareness of its motives, identifying oneself totally with it, I consider one to be at a very low level of consciousness (or awareness).

Meditations intention is to raise that level of awareness, in which for example you will start to see through your own and possibly others ego. Much like you described yourself never getting mad at yourself, when someones better than you in sports - that also can be considered mindfulness (high level of consciousness/awareness). So if you manage to do that all the time, good job.

There's actually so much literature on this and this very same basic idea is the basis of many (if not all) spiritual teachings. But it may be, that I'm just not very good at explaining it. So I'll try to find something, that does it better.

edit:
http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf/mindfulness_in_plain_english.pdf

Start from page 7, if you're interested in what I mean.

 

[mav3rick]

Awesome discussion!

I personally will forgive someone for a wrong-doing however, I'll never forget about it. I'm very black and white when it comes to forgiveness/chances. Two chances, that's it.. If that person doesn't value me and my relationship with them enough to be honest/forthwright etc then I don't particularly want to continue it..

I still have my best friend of nearly 14 years and one other close friend who understand how I am and haven't pushed those boundaries. Yet, I've lost heaps of good friends because of it.

Haha, ahh Freud, I loved all the ego/super ego stuff at uni.. All very interesting!

 

[voxmystic]

Have you ever wondered why some countries (e.g Britain) have such low rates of murder and some countries (e.g Somalia) have such high rates? Is it because more Somalians make the conscious ego driven decision to be bad people than British people? Are Somalians on average just not as good?

An ethologist would tell you the answer is no and point to studies of things like bonobo apes vs chimpanzees. Both very similar species - one lives in an environment with much more plentiful food sources and fewer population based pressures, and experiences much lower rates of 'ape on ape murder' accordingly.

I wonder then, how you might explain the horrendous violence that goes on in the united states? surely we have the lion's share of resources. perhaps there is something to the theory that violence is ego-driven. as a sweeping generalization, i'd say that americans have more bloated egos and a stronger sense of entitlement than people elsewhere.

a smart person, whose name escapes me just now, said, "holding a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die." it's hard to see the wisdom in that while you are mired in anger and resentment, but it turns out to have merit. if you've ever kept yourself awake all night having imaginary conversations with a perceived enemy, or absolutely ruined what could have been a great day with someone you loved by brooding about someone you hate, you'll know what that means.

i used to have a terrible time forgiving. i remember a specific incident that i held resentment about for years. one day ot just felt too heavy, and i put it down. the overwhelming lightness was like a drug. it's like putting down a boulder that you didn't know you were carrying. after that, forgiveness became easier.
i think, for many of us, it's a learned skill.