Following the Way (Psychedelic Christianity)

[Thorns Have Roses]

God does not appear to disapprove of intoxication in proportion, but rather disapproves of "getting fucked up" and have your sense of duties in life deteriorate as a consequence.

Bingo! According to the Catholic Church, Biblical admonitions against drunkenness mean that to drink so much that you do not know what you are doing is a mortal sin, to be tipsy is only a venial sin, and anything less than that is perfectly fine. We can apply this to other substances in theory, though as a practically speaking the Pauline admonition that Christians abide by secular authority leaves most opposed to our activities. I would imagine that most here with an affinity for Christianity do not take it with Born Again seriousness, but see the Bible as almost all allegory and metaphor, useful for extracting universal spiritual truths but not a divinely inspired (or authored) revelation of the One True Path.

Anyway, OP, I don't have time to address your conversation topics at the moment, but I'll get around to it soon.

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

I'm not christian or anything, but this thread is disappointing. I wish those that don't share a mindset with black metal had just stayed out. I was just curious to see what sort of discussion had occurred here and mostly it's just people bashing.

Exactly - that's actually why I posted a response in the first place; it's quite embarrassing really; perhaps I'm old fashioned in thinking psychedelics can make you a better person; that might be questioning religious dogma but it might be also questioning your own beliefs, motivations and behaviour to others; the thread was started by someone with faith in christ who wasn't totally closed minded and rather than engaging with them as a fellow human in what could be an interesting debate they have acted childishly and with hate - ways of acting they want to blame on Christians. That we have freedom to choose what we believe protects all belief be it psychedelic "plant spirits", atheism, buddhism, science or whatever.

Christianity was linked to fly agaric by ONE scholar and not that convincingly IMO.

Anyway I'm not going to say more here - the troll-wanna-bes aren't going to let anyone with a different opinion to them have a platform and aren't going to think about the debate any further than posting fascile smart-assisms

 

[jason7]

Maybe if you take the right psychedelic you'll become aware of the true divine presence and realize that it isn't the crude mythological god of the Jews who craved burnt sacrifices and liked to make up weird laws which always seemed to have a clause wherein more laws can be added at any later time when the original contract only stipulated 10. You see, the Divine Presence isn't a "god". A god is a primitive thing in comparison to the Divine Presence. Incidentally, the Divine Presence never had any sons, human or otherwise. Sorry. It simply exists and permeates everything. It doesn't try to rule people or get them to bow down to it because that would be pointless and actually rather self serving and despicable.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

As for specific experiences, I had imagery/thoughts very reminiscent of John Chapter 15 on 2c-e:

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

I also relate Romans 6 to dissociating psychedelic experiences.

 

[Asante]

An important way wherein I deviate from Christian orthodoxy, lets start with quoting the very beginning of the Bible, and thereof the first 2 days of creation:

Genesis 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

What much of orthodox christianity insists God is doing here is create a universe outside of himself, like a carpenter makes a table or a painter makes a painting. I see it completely differently: God is creating dualities out of his Wholeness, and this makes the universe in all of its guises PART of that God, and not a creation outside of it. If you read Genesis 1 in that way. its completely in line with Hinduism, Buddhism and the like.

That would make everything a part of God and as a consequence, ourselves also. Jesus has this to say about it:

John 10:30-38

King James Version (KJV)

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

But here the Bible and I depart. Personally I believe in that every single thing is Divine and essential to the Whole. That we have a path that goes from the lowest state of consciousness to the highest and then back to the lowest, forevermore, and that we in fact ARE that one God in all of its guises. So there is only YOU and nothing but YOU, and all you do unto others you do unto yourself. So maybe thats behind:

Matthew 7:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Since in my worldview there is only that one God and nothing beyond it, and we are all facets of that same gem, I don't believe in sin on the God level. In every dilemma both options are good, as God is you, the dilemma and any of the outcomes. The only way you can go astray is to choose away from, rather towards, the shortest route to the highest evolution, becoming the Highest Consciousness. But theres only eternal journey, no definitive parking in eternal reward or damnation. By splitting himself up into dualities God made of himself a lowest and highest consciousness, and as our essence is consciousness we go that journey forevermore. No sin, everything is God's Will, no eternal Heaven or Hell, all of us BEING that one God...

That would make most Christians very uncomfortable to consider me one of their own, as it deviates considerably from common Christian dogma. But my entheogenic journeys and sober meditations and philosophizing all point to it, and this interpretation of things resonates with all world religions.

To get back ontopic:

God speaks to you within yourself, and its within yourself that you willl find him. Psychedelics are all about looking within yourself. They whack your senses so hard that reality comes apart to a degree, and with it your unspoken assumptions come apart. You are forced to question and look beyond that which you held as true, old secure beliefs no longer offer comfort. What greater way is there to find God than in this whirlwind of sensory distortions, where only the essence of You and God remain unchanged? Society distracts us with its smoke and mirrors, but eat from that fungus, or that cactus, and for several hours you are strongly invited to look within.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

: God is creating dualities out of his Wholeness

So like, sygzygies?

, and this makes the universe in all of its guises PART of that God, and not a creation outside of it.

I don't think that Christian theology considers the universe separate from God, but I'd have to do some digging for quotes, their position is a bit abstruse (oh, and the Jewish mystics have some really cool stuff to say on the topic of creation vis-a-vis God). I mean, that might be the viewpoint de facto, but not the viewpoint du jure.

Since in my worldview there is only that one God and nothing beyond it, and we are all facets of that same gem, I don't believe in sin on the God level. In every dilemma both options are good, as God is you, the dilemma and any of the outcomes. The only way you can go astray is to choose away from, rather towards, the shortest route to the highest evolution, becoming the Highest Consciousness. But theres only eternal journey, no definitive parking in eternal reward or damnation. By splitting himself up into dualities God made of himself a lowest and highest consciousness, and as our essence is consciousness we go that journey forevermore. No sin, everything is God's Will, no eternal Heaven or Hell, all of us BEING that one God...

The Eastern Orthodox Church considers becoming God-like/coser to divinity (theosis) to be the primary goal of life, and sin is actions that go against this. So sin is a spiritual illness, rather than a legal violation or personal offense against God like the Western sees it.

 

[webbykevin]

blessed are the cheesemakers - obviously it's not meant to be taken literally it refers to any manufacturer of dairy products.

hahahhahhahha

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Keep in mind the topic is about psychedelic use within a Christian context. This thread is not the "How do you feel about Abrahamic religions?" thread. (A)theism vs misotheism is covered by the Philosophy & Spirituality subforum, not the psychedelics drugs subforum (where, need I remind you, Be Respectful is Rule #1.)

- Works by sympathetic/relevant (Christian) authors

St. Teresa de Avila's Interior Castle is a relevant mystic work, though I find her writing style difficult to bear.

I got very into non-religious eastern thought-schools like Tao and (Zen) Buddhism

Those traditions are very popular with the psychedelically inclined, and there is room for overlap with Christian thinking. I've zoned about out of syncretic thinking, but lemme try to conjure up the idea-space...

 

[exists]

The way i interpreted is - If the believers really believed why are they not outraged at the way the world is ?

Well, the last time I voiced my outrage, I landed myself in jail (I obviously wasn't listening to the correct voice). I'm not sure how to proceed currently, and my social anxiety is off-the-charts, so yelling in the streets isn't something I envision myself doing in the near future.

But the world is fucked, no doubt about that, and people are just running running running, not paying attention to the greater issues at hand.

What I'd like to do, is learn telepathy so that I can reach everyone at once. I've already stated why I think materialism and the concept of telepathy aren't at odds with each other, in other threads (there may be a sound scientific basis for it), but that doesn't mean I can "prove" its existence just yet

Anyway, my message would consist of these things: use less fossil fuel and other "dirty" energy sources; shorten the distance between home and work; focus on making Earth a garden planet; eat less meat (it takes much more energy to produce food from animals than food from plants); keep exploring science and technology; explore ways of using less energy all-around; stop working for/supporting large corporations; and last but not least, stop killing each other!

So...erm..yeah..nothing to do with psychs...I just found it interesting that we both found different meanings to that sentence.:D

Figures. I'm not always too swift, socially-speaking

 

[flat-line]

Ok I took a step back and thought about the reality Christianity and Psychedelics.

If we look back in history to the first contact Christians had with psychedelics. “Witches” that used herbs? Datura, Fly Agric, etc. The righteous Christians burned them alive while they watched and thanked their “lord”.

Then we have the conquistadors who came in contact with many different tribal shamans. They made their ancient centuries old ceremonies that had psychedelic substances (peyote, mushrooms, too many too list) “illegal”. Then proceeded to destroy all form of them. Then killed, cut off noses, tortured them and other forms of cruel suppression.

Now days we have a legal system built by Christians that sentences thousands and thousands of people to prison each year for using psychedelic drugs.

So a pretty fierce track record of repressing psychedelic drugs by Christianity.

So I try to think of good Christians that use psychedelics... ? Ted Haggard uses meth from time to time ? A Christian guy on Bluelight said he uses them.? and…..?

I'm still seeing death, persecution, hate, suppression, along with some molested alter boys. But I just don't really see much else as far as Christianity and Psychedelics.

 

[exists]

^Much of the same can be said of science, but we do not blame science because people use it incorrectly

 

[exists]

I also relate Romans 6 to dissociating psychedelic experiences.

Hmm, interesting. That chapter is about being "dead to sin," and, in being in a kind of state of death, living. The dissociated state definitely seems like a state of grace, because you can easily shed certain mentalities and behaviors that feel wrong.

 

[DragonFly31]

I am all for spirituality, but I feel one must exist certainly outside of the traditional churches to hold such a thing true as psychelic christianism. Certainly I feel we can agree it's not a common theme.

Such passages as Peter 5:8:

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. "

Of course there are many others. But most psychedelic drugs, if not all, have a profoundly intoxicating effect. It's hard for me to see how you can reconcile such passages of the bible with taking psychedelics.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

^Much of the same can be said of science, but we do not blame science because people use it incorrectly

Nuclear and chemical weaponry are the first which come to mind

 

[rickolasnice]

Who is it that decides what a correct way of using a religion / bible / whatever is?

I keep hearing of people using it "incorrectly".. then who decides what the correct way is?

 

[EarthBounded]

Take some acid at church next sunday and let us know how it goes.

 

[bennyZA]

I knew some friends who took a bunch of acid before a Zen Buddhist all day sitting. So they woke up at 3am, dropped a couple hits each, then did all day zazen sitting (sitting in meditation for 12 hours, with 15 min breaks where you get to stand up and walk every 50 minutes or so) they said it was a terrible, terrible idea.

 

[webbykevin]

Yeh 5 grams of mushrooms at a vipassna silent retreat was an error of judgement I'm not proud of

 

[kidklmx]

The Eastern Orthodox Church considers becoming God-like/coser to divinity (theosis) to be the primary goal of life, and sin is actions that go against this. So sin is a spiritual illness, rather than a legal violation or personal offense against God like the Western sees it.

C'mon, why is everyone ITT overlooking this great discussion between Asante and NKB, which is actually on topic, instead of useless religion bashing? I think people are overlooking the general problem with (Abrahamic) religion. It is not the belief which is inherently bad, it is the abuse by those who seek power which is bad. The problems we (I, too, hate the church) have has more to do with western society, which seeks to control, than with anything else. Please bear in mind that the bible was written by people, some may have their own agenda. It is not the direct word of god that is written, but the findings and interpretations of some people that they've uncovered through their spiritual journey. What we read is even more far off from "the word of god", since it is a translation made by the institution which infamously used that to keep those lowly peasants from thinking so they would mindlessly continue harvesting crops. This is bad, but has nothing to do with "psychedelic christianity". With wars, religion was just used to gain more power, money or land. This speaks to an inherent problem with our world, mindlessly following things is not exclusive to religion, no need to bash those that seek truth.

In pure essence, all religions cover the same thing. This general "feeling" which science does not seem to cover, yet. It's what we all experience through these drugs, so any condescending view on a religion is just pure hypocrisy IMO. You can be a pure atheist, it's certainly the more rationale decision, but then these threads are not for you. And like I said, whatever you find wrong with religion is just part of a bigger problem, why don't we focus our attention to that? (seriously, if every atheist would do that then the world would be a much better place)

P.s I don't have access to a good keyboard right now so I'll probably improve this post later on

 

[Asante]

Seems like the people for whom this thread was created are either pushed into the defensive or ran out of their own thread, a sad state of affairs.

In my experience with psychedelic Christians and in being a "sympathizer" I notice that the Bible is regarded as a document that holds truth but which got severely tainted by it having been copied down for generations by an entity which has strong interest in the Bible supporting their views: the Church. Christian fundamentalists call that "cherry picking" but doesnt God intend us to eat the cherries and not the leaves, twigs and roots?

1 Thessalonians 5:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

It helps a lot to compare the Bible with other holy manuscripts of other world religions and look for the samenesses, not the differences. Look at science, particularly quantum physics, looking for resopnance of these same truths. But, above all these sources, look inwards because the living Divinity is part of us, whereas in books it is only talked about, often in reference to experiences that we ourselves have not had.

This is what makes psychedelics exceptionally valuable, they do not theorize about reality they influence it, they are like a particle accellerator smashing your reality and letting you examine the bits. Psychedelics magnify that which truly IS within you and especially those parts outside the realm of of words. And there, beyond things we learned, beyond words, there lies Divinity, welcoming us with open arms when we reach out to it. Or, as the Quran puts it:

Allah says, “Take one step towards me, I will take ten steps towards you. Walk towards me, I will run towards you.”
[Hadith Qudsi].

Psychedelics have a tendency, if properly used, to disarm your bias, just like prayer and meditation can.

A Rosary, a Mala, One Way.