Following Drug Bans (2C-X)

[FractalStructure]

Im confused, this is sort of an opinion thread, my personal thoughts on this, etc. If you believe it belongs someplace else, please move it. I put it where I thought it belonged but I could be wrong. Dex, what do you mean by "thumbs down"? I am only expressing my feelings on what I think is totally unfair legislation.

If you dont share these opinions, you dont have to write in the thread. And if you think its irrelevent cause it only applies to the US, as someone said above, you are probably wrong. I am kind of annoyed that anyone would criticize this thread. Im not asking any questions, just trying to provoke some discussion on this topic.

 

[FractalStructure]

Hmm this thread has been roaming around here for a while but how is this not American drug discussion? Please someone, anyone, enlighten me why I should not move this? I am willing to leave the redirect for a very long while though but unlike the thread it can't be bumped.

^^YOU CAN TOTALLY MOVE THIS, you have my permission.

I just want it where it is most relevent, i guess.

 

[PepperSocks]

I also hope this blanket ban doesn't spread north. We're already known for being a source of pot and synthetic drugs to the US, and are under heavy pressure from Washington on just about everything.

I think if the thread moves to NSADD it'll get drowned out. Like Pegasus said; it's more of a "what's good in my area" type of forum.

As FS said; it's important because once the US does something, other governments usually follow.

Although, take it easy, it's not going to make dent in the supply. 2C-B has been illegal everywhere since the 90s and it's still mass produced in China and shipped everywhere.

If you feel nervous and there's some you really want, stock up now.

 

[FractalStructure]

I'm actually more concerned about whether the government is gonna try to schedule the tryptamines next... or something more sinister, like using the SOPA bill and using it to pull rc websites. If they can do it to legit canadian businesses, they can do it to gray area tryp/phen vendors. This ties into a much larger issues dealing with "over-security", a certain type of oppression, and denial of voice.

As FS said; it's important because once the US does something, other governments usually follow.

I feel like in this case, the US is one of the last countries to pass these laws, they've let the 2c's be since I was a teenager (when I was first aware of them, and I recall barely a soul knew what this strange "2ce" was), spice and k2 have been allowed to be sold openly in shops (but not things like mephedrone like in the uk, just spice and salvia, etc) for years as well, and only now are they "getting serious" about it. But whats the point? To create more dangerous analogs? I think the ones we have are just fine. I feel like the main problem is not that I really want to "stock up before its banned", its more like... when it is banned, many much more dangerous analogs will come out, then those will get banned, and we really do not need this kind of "security". Kids will always do drugs, if thats what these politicians are supposedly so worried about, they are actually just making kids take more dangerous drugs.

 

[kingme]

so... thats about every chem out there except the NBoMes. right?...
i was kind of surprized it took them this long to work out this bill...

 

[Jakeperson]

Yeah. Means there will be a new wave of psychedelic RCs to hit the market.

Saying goodbye to the 2c's will hurt, new compounds will be great though.

 

[FractalStructure]

^No, there are many, many more. Which we will not discuss

I posted earlier, this happened mostly because this was done so openly and even if you google, say MDAI, or JWH, you'll find a source (and no this is not Source Discussion lol!) and thats just an example of how easily they've made it for the govt to catch up. What I wonder is, why aren't they bothering the DXM users for example? Or Salvia? I thought they were gonna do something after someone I knew actually jumped off a 17 floor balcony and catch a whole lot of media attention. It was his second time smoking it, and he was naive enough to smoke it on the balcony, his sister saw him, and he pushed her inside, and just jumped off the ledge. (This was in Brooklyn)

Also, we all know BL is monitored, if you like a substance don't say for example "OMG IM SO HAPPY MXE SLIPPED UNDER THE RADAR!" (saw this exact example in a different post). If you really like something, don't talk about it on public forums, and certainly don't openly advertise it on sites like EK, I feel like this is what really killed the rc industry. I wrote a similar post elsewhere, but I feel like the vendors (and some users) just wanted to squeeze every last dollar out of these chemicals, making them so open that this was inevitable. I wish people took some precautions (but not so that it became inaccessible, just tone it down a bit... stick to onion maybe, I dunno).

There are certain chemicals that cannot be replaced methyl with ethyl as easily as a cathinone. Think certain kinds of divine, shroomy tryptamines. If these are banned, I will cry. They have and will not ever hurt anyone (to the point of death) unless someone is seriously poisoned with a gram of some straight acetoxy. And I feel like thats what happened in the Blaine case, and unfortunately, phens like 2ce can cause overdoses when handled by morons like the kid claiming he was giving out 2ce (I still hear it was MDPV, which makes banning the 2c's ridiculous, and even so, they should just get 2ce, not the whole chain, they're just "declaring war" on the internet now)

Yeah. Means there will be a new wave of psychedelic RCs to hit the market.

Saying goodbye to the 2c's will hurt, new compounds will be great though.

unless they pass some serious UK style substitution laws.. which I saw some of in this legislation for certain modifications of cannabinoids and such. And really fuck these "new compounds". As I said, they will further and further deviated from serotonin/dopamine (depending on tryp/phen) or the original chemical (we will soon all be consuming 4-ho-5-meo-dmt, and that is not happy news to me). Just because drugs get weirder, doesn't mean they get better. I actually thought this 2c family and the 4-subs are all amazing chemicals, THAT ARE IRREPLACABLE. If you compare a 2c molecule to dopamine, you won't see much difference. if you compare a tryptamine to serotonin, same thing. Now, go ahead and look at 25c-NBOME. Even the structure scares the shit out of me (not to mention my friend telling me "its like acid with black visuals!" ::

 

[HofmannBlotter]

Actually the "2C-E" overdose was show as "BromoDragonFLY".

Anyway if you live in Europe you shouldn't be worried cause EU shops will still sell 2C-X to EU citizens (I don't know about US customers btw...).

Well we'll still have the lovely Tryptamines, DOx, NBOMe which are great !

And we don't forget our Mushrooms too

 

[Jakeperson]

If you compare a 2c molecule to dopamine, you won't see much difference. if you compare a tryptamine to serotonin, same thing. Now, go ahead and look at 25c-NBOME. Even the structure scares the shit out of me (not to mention my friend telling me "its like acid with black visuals!" ::

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of Phens but don't be put off of 25c so easily. It could almost be better than most of the Phens getting banned. Of course weirder doesn't mean better but further research will uncover more irreplaceable compounds.

 

[lolusername]

Atleast there are other more obscure 2c- drugs that can be picked up on by the RC industry, and maybe they will bring the 2c-x-fly drugs back.

 

[twelvesevndi]

Actually, they incorporated it into a different bill. S. 839 is abandoned but the 2cs carried over into the link at the top
H.R. 1254....

sorry, I am really confused. It seems to me like the house bill that passed has no mention of the 2c series?
If the senate merges the passed house bill (bans cannabinoids and stims) with the senate version (bans only the 2c series) and that passes the senate, wouldn't the merged bill go back to house to be voted on?

i'm putting these here for my own reference
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s112-839
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1254

Also, we all know BL is monitored, if you like a substance don't say for example "OMG IM SO HAPPY MXE SLIPPED UNDER THE RADAR!" (saw this exact example in a different post). If you really like something, don't talk about it on public forums, and certainly don't openly advertise it on sites like EK, I feel like this is what really killed the rc industry.

i feel you, but at the same time i don't. also you go on to contradict yourself at the end of that paragraph. surely you shouldn't mention that on a public site if you're so worried?

unless they pass some serious UK style substitution laws.. which I saw some of in this legislation for certain modifications of cannabinoids and such. And really fuck these "new compounds". As I said, they will further and further deviated from serotonin/dopamine (depending on tryp/phen) or the original chemical (we will soon all be consuming 4-ho-5-meo-dmt, and that is not happy news to me). Just because drugs get weirder, doesn't mean they get better. I actually thought this 2c family and the 4-subs are all amazing chemicals, THAT ARE IRREPLACABLE. If you compare a 2c molecule to dopamine, you won't see much difference. if you compare a tryptamine to serotonin, same thing. Now, go ahead and look at 25c-NBOME. Even the structure scares the shit out of me (not to mention my friend telling me "its like acid with black visuals!" ::

hahaah i do think its funny the US keeps going after single compounds at a time. is our government that fucking inept?! there's always another cannabinoid agonist, ffs.

i think you're way off with what you're saying about 25C-NBOMe ... its just a benzyl ring with a methoxy group, attached to the nitrogen in 2c-c... surely this isn't a hard concept for you to grasp given your interest in chemistry. don't feel intimidated!

 

[Bi0hazardOpeth]

Hmm this thread has been roaming around here for a while but how is this not American drug discussion? Please someone, anyone, enlighten me why I should not move this? I am willing to leave the redirect for a very long while though but unlike the thread it can't be bumped.

+Important

[Discussion]

I think quite simply, it is that the US has a history of forcefully attempting to impose its drug laws on many countries of the world, in return for aid and helping with debt issues. This doesn't mean it will be applied everywhere in the world, or in the near future at least (let's hope not). However, exposing these prohibitions to people around other parts of the world could help them better understand the possible threats and work towards ways of countering these measures in their own countries. This is more about documenting the upcoming possible intentions of the US, in implementing the reach of these laws as far as possible in the global scale. With increased awareness of the ignorance behind many of the laws, this can be battled.

National self determination is being usurped by multi-national corporations and Globalist laws from supranational institutions like the IMF, World Bank, NAFTA, CAFTA, which attempt to implement the same policies around the world, so where ever a corporation operates it gets to choose its conditions rather than the will of any nation-state. This is very similar to how the 'Lisbon Treaty' in the EU - sets up a new government structure that silently steals the power of the elected EU MEP's - and removes local authorities from many of the changes made in EU policy. (If you are interested in this - Please watch a documentary created by the Actual Elected MEP officials of the EU, who are trying to expose this other take-over / national usurping of laws and self determination of countries own policies. @

Lisbon Treaty: The next step in the EU - The End of Nations and Local Sovereignty | This is one of the most important things anyone in the EU could watch
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4291770489472554607

[Examples]

But to be blunt, here is what I'm talking about - the US has veto rights on many of these supranational institutions and has potential means of mass implementing policy across certain areas of the world.

Here is a recent Article from the US Huffington Post:

U.S. Drug Policy Would Be Imposed Globally By New House Bill - Oct 7, 2011 - Also Targeting Website's exactly like this. I think this is very important in a dire way, and needs to be seen worldwide - People need to think of ways to help counter this in their local countries.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/06/us-drug-policy-war-congress_n_998993.html

(Excerpt)
"The House Judiciary Committee passed a bill yesterday that would make it a federal crime for U.S. residents to discuss or plan activities on foreign soil that, if carried out in the U.S., would violate the Controlled Substances Act (CSA) -- even if the planned activities are legal in the countries where they're carried out. H.R. 313, the "Drug Trafficking Safe Harbor Elimination Act of 2011," is sponsored by Judiciary Committee Chairman Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas), and allows prosecutors to bring conspiracy charges against anyone who discusses, plans or advises someone else to engage in any activity that violates the CSA, the massive federal law that prohibits drugs like marijuana and strictly regulates prescription medication.

"Under this bill, if a young couple plans a wedding in Amsterdam, and as part of the wedding, they plan to buy the bridal party some marijuana, they would be subject to prosecution," said Bill Piper, director of national affairs for the Drug Policy Alliance, which advocates for reforming the country's drug laws. "The strange thing is that the purchase of and smoking the marijuana while you're there wouldn't be illegal. But this law would make planning the wedding from the U.S. a federal crime."

(CONTINUED in the Full Article @ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/06/us-drug-policy-war-congress_n_998993.html

 

[Biovail]

The US public hasn't even accepted medical use of marijuana yet, let alone recreational use of of hallucinogenic drugs like 2C-X. And this will be true as long as the public remains ignorant of the facts.


A quick anecdote:

I had Thanksgiving dinner with my family a few weeks ago, during which my aunt brought up a story about this drug called "butterfly" that people these days were using. How part of it is "rat poison" and how these kids are "eating rat poison" when they take this drug.

With this sort of information being passed around by word of mouth, the pro-drug movement isn't going anywhere fast. The only change we get is going to be slow, and it won't be until today's "responsible trippers" reach retirement age that a majority would be in support of hallucinogenic drugs. Unfortunately, at the rate government is futilely restricting these drugs, this will never happen. More importantly than the drugs themselves, the government is restring knowledge about drugs, which is a crime many times more severe.

IMO, the only way these drugs will be legalized is if they get caught up in the rest of the movement against the increasing restrictions of America's freedoms.

 

[Roger&Me]

More importantly than the drugs themselves, the government is restring knowledge about drugs, which is a crime many times more severe.

This is actually not true, there is a ton of great information about psychedelic drugs in the academic literature -- which is actually being funded in an ongoing manner by government grants! Of course, this information isn't free -- unless you are in school or work for a university, you're going to have to fork over some cash for the articles. If anything, its not the government that limits information, it's academia and industry that does.

However, I even know of some cities whose public library systems have subscriptions to many academic journals, and you can get the articles for free with just a library card -- so its probably more so just human laziness that is causing this widespread ignorance regarding drugs. Most people refuse to do anything that requires effort, and reading and learning to understand the academic literature takes a large amount of effort and work.

I say this all the time, but the root of this problem is a lack of education. If we did a better job of educating people about basic science in public schools, people wouldn't think absurd things like how "part of" a recreational drug is "rat poison" etc because those types of notions are only held by people who don't even understand basic chemistry. But since drug education is conducted by police officers and inept journalists, instead of people with training in pharmacology, the general public has terribly misinformed notions.

So what can you do? Well, learning your shit is a good start. If you speak the facts in an unbiased manner, and have the literature references to back up everything you say, how can a person effectively argue against you? The only thing you can possibly do is educate yourself, and attempt to educate others by gently persuading them with reason. Approach the topic as a legitimate scientific topic, not as a policy debate, and you'll be surprised how you can reform people's misguided beliefs. Of course, some people are just too simple in the head to listen to reason, but most people will be strongly swayed by an argument based on sound reasoning, even if they are unwilling to admit it publicly. The key is to maintain objectivity, and stick to what you can prove (eg., going around quoting Terence McKenna or Timothy Leary isn't going to do any good for anyone -- but quoting David Nichols might, since he's a legitimate scientist who works within the confines of the system, and deals only in concrete matters than can be supported with evidence).

 

[FractalStructure]

With 25C-NBOME, I am not passing judgement on it, and I was ranting about something, so of course its not perfect. All I meant is that compared to the regular mescaline/2c series, NBOME's are significantly different, and when I first saw the structure, I found it really odd. Just a personal observation. Whereas if i compare a 2c-x molecule to dopamine, its not that far off. Thats all I meant. I'm not saying 25C is "bad", its just an example of how every ban deviates the chemicals a bit more. But 25C is also considered much more "interesting" then 2cc (though I love 2cc for what it is).

As for my example of "dont mention MXE if you like it", of course I had to give an example to make my point, so I did have to mention something on THIS forum. But it is something I think should not be done as casually in general.

 

[FractalStructure]

U.S. Drug Policy Would Be Imposed Globally By New House Bill - Oct 7, 2011 - Also Targeting Website's exactly like this. I think this is very important in a dire way, and needs to be seen worldwide - People need to think of ways to help counter this in their local countries.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1..._n_998993.html

This sickens me. I hate this us-bullying, what even gives us the right to do things like this? I am also shocked that for these laws the senate just passed, there was a 10% approval rate, doesn't popular opinion mean a damn thing?

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

More importantly than the drugs themselves, the government is restring knowledge about drugs, which is a crime many times more severe.

This is actually not true...I say this all the time, but the root of this problem is a lack of education. If we did a better job of educating people about basic science in public schools, people wouldn't think absurd things like how "part of" a recreational drug is "rat poison" etc because those types of notions are only held by people who don't even understand basic chemistry. But since drug education is conducted by police officers and inept journalists, instead of people with training in pharmacology, the general public has terribly misinformed notions.

So in other words, given it's control over the educational system the educational system, the government is in effect restricting knowledge about drugs by providing education on the subject only through fearmongering and propaganda rather than factual information.

As for the laziness, that's the brilliant part. Freedom of access to information does not make an informed populace! Not to mention, all the rational arguing in the world won't be able to sway the forces of American-bred <snip>

 

[Biovail]

This is actually not true, there is a ton of great information about psychedelic drugs in the academic literature -- which is actually being funded in an ongoing manner by government grants! Of course, this information isn't free -- unless you are in school or work for a university, you're going to have to fork over some cash for the articles. If anything, its not the government that limits information, it's academia and industry that does.

However, I even know of some cities whose public library systems have subscriptions to many academic journals, and you can get the articles for free with just a library card -- so its probably more so just human laziness that is causing this widespread ignorance regarding drugs. Most people refuse to do anything that requires effort, and reading and learning to understand the academic literature takes a large amount of effort and work.

I say this all the time, but the root of this problem is a lack of education. If we did a better job of educating people about basic science in public schools, people wouldn't think absurd things like how "part of" a recreational drug is "rat poison" etc because those types of notions are only held by people who don't even understand basic chemistry. But since drug education is conducted by police officers and inept journalists, instead of people with training in pharmacology, the general public has terribly misinformed notions.

So what can you do? Well, learning your shit is a good start. If you speak the facts in an unbiased manner, and have the literature references to back up everything you say, how can a person effectively argue against you? The only thing you can possibly do is educate yourself, and attempt to educate others by gently persuading them with reason. Approach the topic as a legitimate scientific topic, not as a policy debate, and you'll be surprised how you can reform people's misguided beliefs. Of course, some people are just too simple in the head to listen to reason, but most people will be strongly swayed by an argument based on sound reasoning, even if they are unwilling to admit it publicly. The key is to maintain objectivity, and stick to what you can prove (eg., going around quoting Terence McKenna or Timothy Leary isn't going to do any good for anyone -- but quoting David Nichols might, since he's a legitimate scientist who works within the confines of the system, and deals only in concrete matters than can be supported with evidence).

Very true, and this is the reason I'm a member of bluelight

But scheduling these compounds as Schedule I substances certainly restricts research and makes it more difficult for scientists to study their effects on humans. For one, the government must approve every one of these studies before they can be undertaken. And if nothing else, it must be harder to secure funding for illegal psychedelic chemicals than legal ones.

Another problem is, citizens don't have to operate within the confines of the law in order to take drugs. But scientific organizations can't publish a study conducted with illegally obtained chemicals (as far as I know..) which sucks from a harm reduction standpoint.

 

[PepperSocks]

I've noticed something that sort of goes against that grain. Ever notice how all the psychedelic research being done is on the schedule I's (MDMA, LSD, psilocybin), and there's none being done on the legal analogues?

I think it's easier to get approval for LSD research than it is for an analogue like ETH-LAD. There's so much information on LSD so it's the safer avenue.

As long as the rules are followed Schedule I research should be no harder to conduct than research on any other chemical. I recall Rick Doblin even mentioning this. This being a reason why he doesn't care what schedule drugs go into as long as the rules are followed (which state schedule I drugs are researchable, but not a prescription drug).

The trend however, that the permits are rarely given out. But if one were to apply for a research permit on say 2C-I, it would likely be more frowned upon than a research permit for a schedule I drug.

 

[Biovail]

LSD was probably a bad example seeing as it was originally synthesized as a possible respiratory and circulatory stimulant and was proved to have much valuable and legitimate therapeutic potential before becoming scheduled. Psilocybin and MDMA have also shown great efficacy as tools in counseling for people with terminal illnesses, etc. Same goes for marijuana.

As far as I know, the only legit uses for the 2C's are the cool visuals, sex enhancement, and general trippyness. And seeing how the government now classifies the drugs as some of the most dangerous chemicals known to man, the only reason to research them would be to show how not-dangerous they are, which obviously goes against their political agenda currently.

I find this to be a more likely explanation than assuming that Schedule I's get more research attention. Plus 2C-B has been Schedule I for a while, and I've seen very little if any new research on it lately.