Flight MH17 - What happened?

[Chatative]

I figure we may as well have a thread soley for this... I'm not feeling especially creative right now so shit title.

Putin calls for a ceasefire in Ukraine:

All sides in the conflict should immediately cease fighting and move to peaceful talks.

Direct contact on the ground in Ukraine between the opposing sides must be established as soon as possible.

We are watching what is happening in eastern Ukraine with great concern and sadness. It's terrible, it's a tragedy.

Meanwhile, Malaysia Airlines' European chief exec defends the choice of route:

Gorter also defended the MH17 route over a warzone. Many other airlines have used the same airspace, he said, and that it had been declared safe.

"It is a tragic incident and could have happened to any of us," Gorter said. But he confirmed that Malaysia Airlines is now avoiding the route.

And Malaysia Airlines' official statement:

MH17’s flight plan was approved by Eurocontrol, who are solely responsible for determining civil aircraft flight paths over European airspace. Eurocontrol is the air navigation service provider for Europe and is governed under ICAO rules.

The route over Ukrainian airspace where the incident occurred is commonly used for Europe to Asia flights. A flight from a different carrier was on the same route at the time of the MH17 incident, as were a number of other flights from other carriers in the days and weeks before. Eurocontrol maintains records of all flights across European airspace, including those across Ukraine.

In April, the International Civil Aviation Organization identified an area over the Crimean peninsula as risky. At no point did MH17 fly into, or request to fly into, this area. At all times, MH17 was in airspace approved by the ICAO.

It looks rather like Malaysia Airlines are getting off the hook somewhat. (not that it'll make a difference for them) It sounds like the ICAO will come under scrutiny for declaring the route safe.

Perhaps this was something no-one could have foreseen. although I reckon it's less likely to be a direct cause of the conflict & more likely to be terrorism. i.e. someone purposefully shot it down hoping to blame the other side or stir something up.

 

[Sammy G]

 

[Sammy G]

"We assess Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 … was likely downed by a surface-to-air [Sam] missile, [likely] an SA-11, operated from a separatist location in eastern Ukraine."

She says its speed, altitude, route, flight plan and tracking were all ordinary: "there was nothing frightening or provocative about MH17."

"Of the operational Sam systems, only the SA-11, SA-20 and SA-22 are capable of hitting an aircraft at this altitude. We can rule out shorter range Sams including SA-8 and SA-13 systems not capable of hitting an aircraft at this altitude."

"Because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it is unlikely that separatists could operate it [without technical assistance] … We cannot rule out technical assistance from the Russians."

Samantha Power, US Ambassador to the UN.

"Our priority is to establish fact,"

"Prior to [the investigation's conclusions], we must not jump to any conclusions … or make accusations."

Liu Jieyi, Chinese Ambassador to the UN.

 

[mattnotrik]

Eyes to the skies people this is real, happening now

bloomberg bloomberg

dont ban guns

 

[Sammy G]

Fuuuuuuuck. And our man from Russia says:

"We place all blame on in Kiev," Vitaly Churkin, Russia's ambassador to the UN, says, adding that this is not the time for "unjustified … broad statements and insinuations"

"We think it right to bring an international commission to … investigate not only the disaster but into the extent the Ukrainian aviation authorities carried out their obligations. Why did the Ukrainian aviation dispatcher send a flight to … an area [where strikes were being carried out]?"

About Kiev's decision to close airspace over east Ukraine, he asked "why couldn't this have been done earlier, rather than waiting for hundreds of victims to be incurred?"

He then denounces the Ukrainian military's "storming, air strikes, artillery, tanks, and volleys, indiscriminate in nature."

"The punitive operation is increasingly full-scale, and a disaster for civilians and infrastructure. Dozens of civilians have been killed, transport systems destroyed, community and medical centers targeted."

"There's been no evacuation in these areas by Kiev. People have to leave by themselves, risking their lives. There are many reports that people fleeing war, in particular seeking refuge in Russia, are increasingly targeted by the Ukrainian armed forces. Russia has hosted more than 10,000 refugees from eastern Ukraine."

"Artillery and mortar shelling by Ukrainian armed forces has become regular, the targets border crossings and civilians. We see these provocations as aggressive acts

"Kiev's government has decided to stamp out dissenters after the February uprising, calling them 'bandits or terrorists, some sort of insects or non-humans'", describing a commercial in which Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko "stamps" on insects.

"We place all blame on the powers in Kiev and call on the Ukrainian side to take strong measures. … Negotiations for the crisis are still possible, but the right choice must be made."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-found-as-anger-at-russia-mounts-live-updates

EDIT: Aaaaand his Ukrainian counterpart:

Yuriy Sergeyev, Ukraine's ambassador to the UN, in turn blames Russia, saying "if Russia did not support the terrorists, and if they did not provide sophisticated weapons systems", then MH17 would not have crashed.

"We believe that an international investigation will bring the truth to light and bring the perpetrators to justice."

He then mentions an "intercepted, recorded conversations" between men alleged to be rebels with Russian links, as well as the alleged social network post of Igor Girkin aka Strelkov, a separatist leader. He alludes to "photos and confessions, including of two recently detained Russian citizens who were going to join terrorists as experts, [who] said the Buk system had recently arrived from Russia."

"Russia has never called on its citizens to refrain from joining armed groups in Ukraine. This fact alone should speak for itself. … "We call on Russia to cease provocations."

 

[rickolasnice]

Did you know that over 100 passengers on board were Aids experts / activists?

:O

 

[parttime crackhead]

Fuck knows what happened to MH17. That plane that blew up over Ukraine was MH370. Probably wired full of explosives. Perfect way to bolster support for Obama's latest round of Russian sanctions. It also nicely takes the spotlight off Israel rolling tanks into Gaza.

 

[Sammy G]

Fuck knows what happened to MH17. That plane that blew up over Ukraine was MH370.

Pssst... wrong way round.

It gets even stranger if you take into account the fact that rebels reportedly allowed an aviation inspection team from Kiev free access, but then turned away OSCE inspectors. Whether that was because the Ukrainian investigators got there before the rebels guarding the site were sure of their orders, I don't know. Though previously the word from the rebel camp was that they'd grant OSCE inspectors access.

Which brings us to the fact that the separatist rebels aren't one organised group anyhow, but a disparate bunch of groups. Which could mean that only a tiny number of people are aware of what actually went on, assuming it was fired from separatist territory. It would also make the kind of US infiltration and subterfuge that we've mentioned a distinct possibility.

Of course, there's always a good chance that it was a trigger-happy rebel who thought they'd spotted a cargo plane on radar and couldn't be bothered to carry out further checks before firing, as has been strongly suggested. Nothing would surprise me to be honest.

And yeah, Gaza gets conveniently forgotten about. What a world, eh?

 

[parttime crackhead]

Pssst... wrong way round.

No, I meant that. I admit that it's a bit of a wild shout.

 

[Sammy G]

I wondered for a second whether you meant it. And yes, that is a wild shout. Doesn't really make much sense at all either. Then again, this is the US and Russia we're talking about.

Can't see a way for Russia to escape further sanctions and international scorn with this one, as even if it does turn out to have been a clueless separatist militant who pulled the trigger, they're going to argue that the arms came across the Russian border and they must have had Russian training. Unless, of course, the investigation turns up proof of some dirty business. Which of course is unlikely to happen, either because of subterfuge, or because it simply was a calamitous faux pas on behalf of the militants.

You'd think that if Russia were arming them with SAMs in the knowledge that commercial flights were still passing by, they'd at least give them proper equipment to determine their targets though, wouldn't you? Even more so if (as has been suggested) there were Russian personnel among the separitists.

I can't see Putin taking the risk of an international incident such as this for the sake of keeping hold of Crimea.

 

[parttime crackhead]

I can't see Putin taking the risk of an international incident such as this for the sake of keeping hold of Crimea.

Exactly. It's either false flag or it's, as you said, a clueless militant. Russia would have had that plane on radar going through Ukrainian airspace, there's no chance they would have let someone they were controlling do that.

 

[Vurtual]

Of course, there's always a good chance that it was a trigger-happy rebel who thought they'd spotted a cargo plane on radar and couldn't be bothered to carry out further checks before firing, as has been strongly suggested. Nothing would surprise me to be honest.

Or a west ukraine/nato bod pretending to be the same (as in the syria gas false flags)

A buk system isn't simple (i've used them in a game ) - it would need some expertise to use. It could have been a russian buk (with personnel) sneaked across the border (seems unlikely, but i'm sure the cia can furnish some photos either way); but the west ukrainian army had apparently just moved a battalion with Buks in into that area the day before (and have buks-a-plenty (and say none have been taken by rebels)).

If you're knowledgable enough to use a buk from the console, i'd guess you're clever enough to spot a civil airliner (just by the altitude/trajectory); this weighs against accidental rebel shooting and for false flag for me, but who knows.

There's various audio eavesdrops being shown implicating both sides, all easily faked - hard to know (but without 'evidence' i tend to err on the side of western neo-imperialism being the culprit usually and it doesn't see me wrong much (biased? moi?).

I get the creeping feeling that facts may go by the wayside in the face of ramping up a bit of world war, just after those pesky ruskies start undermining the dollar house of cards with their BRICS bank (that may just be pcparanoia)

 

[Sammy G]

Aye, like I've already mentioned, the rebels are in some cases barely even on nodding terms, yet they're being referred to as if they were an homogenous unit. For all we know, the rebel group which is guarding the crash site could also have been well and truly infiltrated. Hence the hostility toward the OSCE investigation.

The 'evidence' produced so far really hasn't been compelling, as you say.

 

[parttime crackhead]

I get the creeping feeling that facts may go by the wayside in the face of ramping up a bit of world war

I get the same feeling.

 

[Hangover]

NSFW:

 

[parttime crackhead]

Barack Obama has seized on the shooting down of the Malaysian passenger jet to redouble international pressure on Russia over its support for Ukrainian separatists, calling it a “wake-up call” for Europe.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/obama-mh17-wake-up-call-europe-ukraine-russia

You blew up that plane Barry. Aye, you

 

[ponch]

Wouldn't surprise me if Russia were involved to be honest. The longer the conflict goes on in the east the longer they get to keep Crimea.

They are probably pumping in a fair bit of money to keep the people of Crimea sweet, buying their allegiance. No doubt there will be fierce opposition when they really get down to what to do about it, which is seemingly a long way off. I can see the east of Ukraine being a war zone for a while yet.

The lease on their Sevastopol naval base was due to expire in 2017, they have been constructing a new base on Russian soil at Novorossiysk but that isn't due to be completed until 2020.

 

[Sammy G]

I suggest anybody who gives a shit tries to find a translation of the ten questions for the Ukrainian government which the Kremlin has published, but mysteriously no western media seems to be acknowledging.

They disappeared from the fucking COMMENTS section of two Guardian articles, without the usual 'this comment does not meet standards' business. Alright, they could be part of a propaganda operation, but they seem perfectly resonable questions to me.

Try looking for a statement from 'Carlos' the air traffic controller, about the (alleged) presence of two Ukrainian fighter jets which were supposedly flying very close to the airliner. Again, could be bullshit, but it's intriguing stuff.

The simplest question went along the lines of 'why has the Ukrainian government deployed Buks in the first place, given the fact that the rebels don't possess a single fighter jet?'.

I expect to be labelled a Putinbot anytime soon, btw. Go on, I dare ya.

Waiting for my Russian flatmate to get home so I can ask her what the word from back home is.

 

[parttime crackhead]

I suggest anybody who gives a shit tries to find a translation of the ten questions for the Ukrainian government which the Kremlin has published, but mysteriously no western media seems to be acknowledging.

These

TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?

2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?

3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?

4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?

5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?

6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?

7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?

8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?

9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?

10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.

 

[Sammy G]

That's them. Nice one.

It'll be interesting to see whether we get a response from Washington Kyiv.