Oh & I didn't read your question...it could be harm reduction related in the sense that I want to know so perhaps I can intervene in preventing someone like my brother, an addict, from finding them. & that's the opposite of what we're here for? um, have you even LOOKED at any other forums on here? The first forum I saw on here was a thread full of "how to defeat the time-release mechanism on the new op 80s so that they could abuse them. Every other post is about insufflating or injecting some time of damn opiate, and the moderators don't seem to mind that haha. So don't try to say that's what 'we're' here for, as if you're speaking for everyone.