Feminism

[mugen]

when i was still at uni and those fuckers at unsw taught me not law but social justice/policy/academic ramblings, we had to look at feminist perspectives on <random thing that feminism has nothing to do with> quite often.

i had always conceived of feminism as seeking to achieve recognition that, at least mentally (the physical aspect is undeniable), women are precisely as capable as men are; that they are the equals of men. In that sense, feminism is a legitimate and commendable movement.

however, it would instead seem that 'feminism' in its contemporary usage connotes a hilariously perverse and ironic return to attitudes of the 1700s, whereby proponents now claim that women are homely, frivolous and frail things more concerned with passion and emotion than reason; that rational thought as traditionally conceived of is inherently 'male' and something to which females are not attuned; that females are interested less in competition and abstract cost-benefit analyses than in nurturing relationships; and that notions of individuality are male.

all of that is, of course, absolute fucking drivel and is egregiously denigrating and patronising to women. it is, furthermore, completely devoid of empirical proof and, even in a priori terms, illogical nonsense given that it asserts 'different but equal' while positing that women are in every objective sense inferior creatures to males.

ah post-modernism how we love ye for the great intellectual advancement ye have brought to mankind 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

 

[mugen]

Are women "equal" with men in society? yes i think so. In most things but not all. Women should have more rights when it comes to childcare and maternity leave and so forth. They should be able to be 'allowed' to raise a family and take time off when new children come into their lives and know that when they want to return to work their job is secure

Fuck off. The fact that a career and child-rearing are exclusive or impractical alternatives (and that you would therefore rather not have to make an unappealing choice between the two) does not mean that business and the rest of society should have to pay so that you can goddamn self-indulgently avoid the choice and do both at the expense of business and society. Until such time that I am 'allowed' to 'take a year off and sail around the Mediterranean on a yacht' knowing that when I return my job is secure, your claim is utter bullshit.

 

[mymymymysharona]

i'd hate to identify with any type of 'group'- even if i overall agree with their ideology- cause i hate being allocated particular rules that go with it.

ie. id rather think it not say it. much easier.

 

[MoeBro]

hear hear, mugen.

 

[onetwothreefour]

mugen - are you the mugen of is/not soires and pbs fame? if so, your radio show is fucking mad. it inspired me to grab a shiny new membership and all.

 

[onetwothreefour]

why are you assuming that men can't be feminists. as i've mentioned before(mostly to the derision and laughter of most of you other fuckers) i definitely consider myself a feminist.

i tend to identify most strongly with the strains of thought most articulately expressed by simone de beauvoir and (to a point) germaine greer - though i find some of her more extreme views kind of pointlessly arbitrary. i can also empathise with some of the third wave stuff too, but mostly i find its postmodern aspects kind of contradictorary. i'm all for reclaiming the power and all that, but can you really call yourself a feminist if you look like christina aguilera (that's a generalisation, since you can, but ya know what i mean).

i consider myself a feminist because i believe strongly in the idea that everybody should be given a basic modicum of respect, regardless of their gender. i think breaka's point is valid, but misguided: no, the sexes really aren't the same, and any idea of "equality" that doesn't take this into account is absolutely bound to failure. nonetheless, feminism in my opinion should be (and in its best instances is) about taking power away from the patriarchal structures of society and increasing the opportunities to the previously subjugated "second sex".

i don't see why there's any reason that i, as a male, can't subscribe to this philosophy just as a female can?

on a side note, buffy, angel, and firefly creator (and alien resurrection script doctor) joss whedon calls himself a feminist too.

 

[gher]

If there were no male feminists in the first place, the movement would have never got off the ground. Back in the early 20th century, women had no right to vote and thus had no political voice. If it wasn't given to them by men, they'd all still be in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant.

I should really delete my above post to save embarrassment.

But it took me too long to type.

Most people here would agree that it hit the nail on the head.

 

[onetwothreefour]

that's a pretty controversial statement, gher.

surely most people (including myself) would argue that the vast majority of feminism's strength (in both its first and second wave incarnations at least) came through its female demographic. angry mass protests, extreme exposure, etc.

obviously its effect was in a way mediated through the male-dominated structures in place, but that doesn't necessarily mean those men agreed with them - perhaps just that they felt themselves backed into a corner by the ostensibly mob mentality and public perception of the feminist movement.

 

[gher]

Maybe. I didn't particularly like history in high school so I dropped it as soon as I could, but the lessons we had on the Great Depression included things about the Women's Suffrage movement and that it was assisted (morally and financially) by the husbands of its members, particularly the ones that happened to be politicians and businessmen.

 

[onetwothreefour]

history is absolutely not a strong point of mine, so i'll take what you said as the truth. what i meant though was that your statement that "they'd all still be in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant" was controversial.

obviously you're exaggerating (and hey, i laughed ), but i guess i'm pointing out that even without the help of these men i imagine the feminist movement would have gone full steam ahead.

it's probably a bit of a moot point now though.

 

[zephyr]

because men and women are not equal. the idea ludicurious. One is not better than the other.

THEY ARE DIFFERENT. PEE-PEE'S AND VAGINALS ARE DIFFERENT. NOT EQUAL.

I am also high intoxicated. Therefore not able tpo conduct conversation now.

DO YOUR ASSIGNMENT DOOFQUEEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha, I just realised the irony of the word 'Queen' In your name.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

+1 I am pretty fucked up so this actually makes sense. All you need is to do your assignment fucked up DQ, the answers are all here.

 

[m4dd0g]

What does this word today mean to you? A woman who is proud to be female and sticks up for women's rights

This means a lot of females who wouldnt consider themselves feminist and no men ...

To me a feminist is: "Someone who actively champions the cause of female rights"

Why do you think (apart from above) it comes with negative images?
As with a lot of causes; it attracts a large number of crazy misguided emotionally unbalanced people who are externalising their personal issues onto the nearest moral high ground. The net effect of their titanic efforts is to embarrass the reminder of the female population.

Do you think there is a need for feminism?
As a considered political view when keeping an eye on policy. barely.
As a 'grass roots' movement recruiting people and pushing for legislation changes. no.
The only social effect of the latter is someone to avoid at parties.

Are women "equal" with men in society?
Im not too sure. There is still some discrimination in some male dominated areas but I would have thought no more than being ugly and trying to get a hospitality job or how the complexity of vending machines excludes the average emo.

For the record men and women arent mentally equivalent either. Different strengths there too.

 

[endlesseulogy]

Masculinity sucks (apart from several novel scanarios) and is responsible for the death and destruction of this planet. It's time to start thinking about the moon again people. The sun brought us food and agriculture, but with it, came greed.

Feminism on the other hand has lost it's way. As far as i'm concerned it never really existed. Women are still 2nd class - even though now it's more subtle since the introduction of token laws. I believe female politicians and law makers would seriously change our destiny as humans. The leaders of the big co-operations that are destroying our planet are all males. The leaders of most countries are male. It truely is a man's world. I dare say women are smarter. Women are often better at looking at the big picture rather then man's instinct to see things through a pin-hole. Unrelentless and ignorant Greed is the name of the game for most males.


There is a huge sexual element to this puzzle also. Women may seem free, however they are still tied down to the sexual domination of men. You just have to observe how the Silverback gorilla treats his women - in order to understand our primate undertoes. We really have not come that far in evolution. The grand irony is that men and women are really co-dependant. We need women to make men.

 

[mugen]

^^^

the above is an example of why ppl dun like feminists: some impossibly stupid people identify themselves as feminist and the stupidity of the proponent is thereafter associated with feminism.

 

[preacha]

^^

*nods*

 

[endlesseulogy]

Please feel free to elaborate and share your views in more detail rather then just flinging a blank insult my way

 

[Samadhi]

Are women "equal" with men in society? yes i think so. In most things but not all. Women should have more rights when it comes to childcare and maternity leave and so forth. They should be able to be 'allowed' to raise a family and take time off when new children come into their lives and know that when they want to return to work their job is secure

hmmm, while i think that there are companies etc out there that don't treat women as fairly as they should with regard to returning to the workplace after having a child, there are organisations out there (such as my workplace - federal government department) that are very fair when it comes to mat. leave and return to work. We have access to:

*14 weeks paid maternity leave (can be taken at 28 weeks 1/2 pay)
*Access to carers leave/can use other leave on top of mat. leave to extend time off
*Upon our return to work, we have an opportunity to work part-time for up to 2 years.

I think that's pretty fair! I also think that applies to alot of other govt. departments, state and federal. Not sure about the private sector, i've not been in private for a few years.

My responses?

If you are female do you identify as a feminist? In a way yes, but not an "active" feminist. Having said that, i like for a man to open a door for me on occasion, and do other gentlemanly things. For example, the last time i caught a plane home, as we were exiting, a guy stepped back and let me pass, saying "ladies first". It was really sweet and i told him what a gentleman he was.

What does this word today mean to you? I agree with m4ddog. A feminist is a person who actively advocates the political, social and economic rights of women.

Why do you think (apart from above) it comes with negative images? I think that the "feminist movement" seems to attract alot of man-hating women with major chips on their shoulders, and as they seem to be the ones that are most vocal about feminism, are the ones in the spotlight.

Do you think there is a need for feminism? Not so much a need for "feminism" but i think there needs to be a little more equality in the workplace...for women AND for men. Case in point: As i said above, women at my work get 14 weeks fully paid maternity leave, but men only get 1 week parental leave, and then have to dip into their annual/carers/flex leave. Sure, women need to heal, etc after birth, but men need time to bond with their kids as well.

Are women "equal" with men in society? In alot of ways, yes they are, although there does seem to be a bit of a "boys-club" mentality in certain workplaces, including mine.

Is there a gender reversal? i.e women have MORE rights then men today and have it easier because men feel they have been "over powered" by the women's movement? Absolutely, and i've given an example of that a couple of questions back.

 

[endlesseulogy]

We have access to:

*14 weeks paid maternity leave (can be taken at 28 weeks 1/2 pay)
*Access to carers leave/can use other leave on top of mat. leave to extend time off
*Upon our return to work, we have an opportunity to work part-time for up to 2 years.

Thats very true. However if you look at the big picture, on a global scale, women are still 2nd class. As doofqueen's initial thread is not country specific, my points are based on the status of women globally - as Australian women are a tiny blip on the radar screen.

 

[Samadhi]

I totally agree with you, EE, i guess i was speaking on a more local scale. Further to your 2nd class comments, in certain Middle-Eastern and African countries, women are not even treated as human beings... Feminism would be useless there, until women are actually recognised as citizens at all.

 

[anna!]

I don't consider myself to be a feminist. I enjoy many rights as a woman, and indeed I am the sole breadwinner in my family (my husband is a stay-at-home dad). But I am not interested in women being "equal" with men. I would rather see gender become a non-issue.

As a mum and a worker, I'm tired of being made to feel like I have to "do it all" to be happy, just because women in my mum's generation burned their bras. I don't like the fact that other women look down on housewifey types, perhaps even more than men do.

My mum has a print hanging on her wall - a bunch of men and one woman sitting around a boardroom. The caption is "An excellent point, Ms Anderson. Maybe one of the men would like to make it?" Hilarious, but despairingly true. It would be so much nicer if everyone's contribution was taken solely on its merits and not because they are a woman (whether in a good or a bad way). Similarly I would hate for a thought or opinion of mine to be praised just because I am a woman, and I would loathe winning a job because of my gender.

Neutral for me, baby!