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  • Film & TV Moderators: ghostfreak

Favorite on screen sociopaths

As someone said before, I see psychopathy as a specific inherited neurological disorder, where as sociopathy is conditioned through the social situations the victim grew up in. Some psychiatrists use the term interchangeably, others see them apart from each other. I see Patrick Bateman as a Malignant Narcissist, which is one of the most severe forms of aspd/narcissism.
 
i believe that the whole theory that character traits are genetic to be bullshit.
This skepticism is much more problematic for real life psychological theory than it is in any fictional narrative. All that matters for "on screen sociopaths" is that their character derives from what is revealed in the past movie, book, comic, etc., narrative that fleshes out their character. There are no genetics in fiction. Past narrative encompasses the "genetics" of a fictional character (in almost all cases). This may be a captious point but that's where the discussion seemed to be leading anyways. Not that either are that well defined anyways.
 
Robbie Rotton|Lazy Town

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& Daniel Plainview especially, amirite?

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Yessir!... ;)
 
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I see Patrick Bateman as a Malignant Narcissist

Last I checked, people with narcissistic personalities generally refrain from hacking up hookers with chainsaws (as a rule). But yeah, those narcissistic traits are certainly present as well, which makes Bateman a far more interesting and nuanced character study among Hollywood psychopaths than, say, Dexter Morgan.

Also, neither Patrick nor his brother Sean ever reveal exactly why or how they acquired their malicious traits, which I suppose only contributes to their morbid mystique.
 
Last I checked, people with narcissistic personalities generally refrain from hacking up hookers with chainsaws (as a rule). But yeah, those narcissistic traits are certainly present as well, which makes Bateman a far more interesting and nuanced character study among Hollywood psychopaths than, say, Dexter Morgan.

Also, neither Patrick nor his brother Sean ever reveal exactly why or how they acquired their malicious traits, which I suppose only contributes to their morbid mystique.
"an extreme form of antisocial personality disorder that is manifest in a person who is pathologically grandiose, lacking in conscience and behavioral regulation, and with characteristic demonstrations of joyful cruelty and sadism".
You failed to read the term "malignant" in front of the term "Narcissist", and when the two are combined, they are worlds apart of a typical narcissist. Look at The Joker (Heath Ledger) and then look at Patrick Bateman. I'm too lazy to go into detail.. but one is a pure psychopath, and one is truley a malignant narcissist; and then we have Dexter Morgan. who is a sociopath. The differences and the similarities should be clear. A psychopath could care less about what others think of him, whereas a malignant narcissist cares greatly on their perceived image. That is the only difference. Dexter Morgan is in between.

And for real life example.. The Zodiac and The BTK could be classified as Malignant Narcissists.. because they sent letters, and taunted police to feel superior.. whereas Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, and John Wayne Gacy killed on their own time, in their own privacy, and in complete and utter privacy without publicity because they enjoyed it. They didn't need to feel superior by tricking officials, they just did it to satisfy an inner urge, caring less about what the world thought about it. There are differences, as subtle as they can be, they are there. Welcome to the world of profiling.
 
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I would go as far as to say Sam Jackson's character on Jackie Brown...he's certainly only about himself. But a sociopath...hard to say...alot of his actions were for survival, still I think his character is very spot on and a great performance.
 
"an extreme form of antisocial personality disorder that is manifest in a person who is pathologically grandiose, lacking in conscience and behavioral regulation, and with characteristic demonstrations of joyful cruelty and sadism"...You failed to read the term "malignant" in front of the term "Narcissist", and when the two are combined, they are worlds apart of a typical narcissist.

Ah, yes, you're definitely right on this one. My mistake. I had never encountered the term 'malignant narcissist' before, whence my confusion.
 
I love Dexter and think it's one of the greatest shows ever. It has lost some steam but what would Dexter be in this game? And I love American Psycho but it wasn't a nuanced performance, it was actually way over the top. Dexter is much more nuanced and not nearly as violent either.
 
And I love American Psycho but it wasn't a nuanced performance, it was actually way over the top. Dexter is much more nuanced and not nearly as violent either.

Have you read the books? Darkly Dreaming Dexter and American Psycho provide first-person studies of their characters upon which film/television can barely touch.

Either way, the performances weren't really my intended target - I think that both Hall and Bale are/were great in their respective roles (I've actually never seen Bale do a better job than he did in AP, now that I think about it). It was rather the characters' one-dimensionality that is so typical of 'psychos' in movies and TV shows that leaves me slightly unsatisfied. I think that both Bateman and Morgan lack, seemingly by definition, any significant capacity to change, leaving it up to other characters and events in their lives to drive the story forward in a humanly meaningful way. Both are strictly one-dimensional in that psycho-/sociopaths are considered to be 'incurable' - and they both appear to be incorrigible indeed. The only reason I prefer Bateman is his sheer extremity: The extent of his depravity and pathology are enough to make me blush. Dexter seems more contrived to me, a kind of hammy, streamlined Hollywood rendition of psychopathy that attempts to pass itself off as something plausible to its audiences for the cheap thrill of awaiting the next episode. American Psycho was more black-comic satire than slasher horror/suspense. I never cared about/for Bateman either, but, then, such sympathy was never required of me to thoroughly enjoy the film and comprehend its intent. With Dexter, it's a different story. The show almost demands that I cheer on and empathize with a vigilante murderer who appears more comfortable than is humanly plausible with his status and role in society. People with antisocial personality disorder (or some variant thereof) generally are as emotionally shallow and manipulative as Dexter tends to be, but the character's level of self-control and tolerance for stress is absolutely unbelievable, verging on supernatural. Psychopathy is presented in Dexter as a kind of superpower-curse that one typically encounters in mythology and superhero stories. In real life, I believe that most psychopaths are truly miserable people who don't consider themselves to be as fundamentally different as Dexter seems to think he is. Dexter glamorizes a personality disorder that predisposes its namesakes to all manner of irresponsible, victimizing behavior as a helpful tool that allows its eponymous character to do what must be done in order to uphold his convictions and protect his 'loved ones' (but how could this be? he's a psychopath, he doesn't have any convictions nor loved ones!; but he does!; but he doesn't!; but he does!; etc.). When you combine little qualms like these with Hall's incessant, droning voice-overs, you don't get a show (or a lead) that I would ever refer to as nuanced. Don't get me wrong, I think Dexter is a fine television program, but I make such judgements on a relative basis, i.e. compared to most other shows on television. That said, American Psycho and Dexter can't be compared side-by-side as though apples vs oranges were a fair competition...but I still reserve the right to prefer one species of fruit over the other.
 
Ah, yes, you're definitely right on this one. My mistake. I had never encountered the term 'malignant narcissist' before, whence my confusion.

Didn't mean to come off rude, I was just drunk. There's just so many variations it gets confusing. Still haven't really grasped my mind around Dexter Morgan. He seems kind of Schizoid, or even slighting autistic (aspergers), with the need for sadism. That's why I don't really like labels, you just can't define one person with one term.

Jean Paul: never heard of that movie, but I'm going to watch it now. Sounds a lot like "The Good Son" with Mcauley Culkin (sp), which I advise you to watch.
 
Getting back to Bateman. I thought it was a pure cheap out that he never actually killed anyone and it was all in his head, The Usual Suspects syndrome? And yes Dexter has catered to audiences for a series, but that's b/c it's a series. I have read both books and I find them both enjoyable, I just Dex has a better sense of humor and is more down to earth. Would like to give major props for those who put up the actor from the movie "We Need To Talk About Kevin"< it was a spectacular movie. Back to American Psycho....in the end of the movie we never know what Bateman really did or didn't do. It was too ambiguous for me. At least Dexter may be insane but we do get to see the reality, even with Fight Club, it comes to the narrator late but we get the whole picture. American Psycho is flawed in the end, it coulda been a masterpiece, instead it's just a really good movie.
 
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Gotta be Robert de Niro as Travis Bickle in 'Taxi Driver' as my favourite but Christian Bale in 'American Psycho' was good but his character in the book was much more evil.
 
It was too ambiguous for me. At least Dexter may be insane but we do get to see the reality, even with Fight Club, it comes to the narrator late but we get the whole picture. American Psycho is flawed in the end, it coulda been a masterpiece, instead it's just a really good movie.

As I'm sure you're aware, this is a matter of subtle, delicate taste. For you, ambiguity is either threatening or distasteful because it acts as an affront to the basic 'rules' of narrative storytelling and refuses to admit of any closure. However, I see these open-ended qualities of films like AP as being far more 'in touch' with the world in which I live than the tidy resolution or the climactic moment of ultimate redemption/realization, mostly because such wildly implausible things have never actually happened to me nor to anyone that I have ever known, and likely never will. I do not perceive an external position of certainty upon which to predicate my opinions about the world, and neither, in my view, must the camera that purports to offer me a unique glimpse into a thrilling or interesting aspect of that world. Perhaps you go to the movies and watch television for other reasons; escapism and 'entertainment' are words that come readily to mind. For you, an impartial, utterly reliable camera-narrator ('eye of god') is absolutely required as a criterion of merit for a film that attempts narrative excellence. For me, it is not.
 
That was very well worded and also too preachy. I see movies for all kinds of reasons and I like what I like b/c that's who I am. As to where in another movie I wouldn't of cared if we had an ending that didn't resolve things in a universal way, but this one just bugged me. But aside from us debating let's get back to the game at hand.

Tom Cruise in Collateral...maybe not the most fave sociopath but nonetheless.
 
Nick Stahl from the brilliant film Bully ( a movie that takes murder seriously and doesn't cop out).


And you can claim "eye of god", that's just your way of not taking into account that American Psycho played itself too straight all along to then go to another level. It just didn't ring true, and the book is by far better.
 
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