False Positives for MDMA with Color Changing Reagents

[futura2012]

Hello ADD would really value anyones time or input on this.

Been getting an issue on ED of recent where users are complaining about test kits testing positive for E Tablets.

The test result is showing MDMA content. As a result users are then consuming them.

User reports range from sketchy come downs to small pupils to a host of non MDMA related symptoms. From an HR perspective this is not good.

Unfortunately a new breed of pill is becomming more and more common now.

The thread in ED is titled "Ecstasy HR Question that I have no valid answer to"


I am wondering if anyone can advise a method to some how sniff out these bunk pills. Users have expressed interest in investing in MP test gear basically anything to try and improve safety. anything that is reasonably simple to do and doesnt require $1000s. I am sure an investment in some equipment would be okay for the majority of users.

Just looking for anything to help us really. I think this will fall down to a chemistry related topic but we are all ears for any suggetions.

Thank you in advance to the Moderators on here and to all the ADD members.

BZP and MDMA combined is very dangerous desperately in need of a solution to combat this.


Here is an example of what is going on:

First test appearing to be MDMA only...

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30077#comments

Second test of god knows what...

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30130#comments

Third test, again confusing. Edata submission made...

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30135#comments

Fourth report with odd tests, but a closer Mecke hit...

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30200#comments

A couple of reports come out with no pictures of pills or test results saying these are legit MDMA only presses...

...and this is what we get...

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2605

 

[sekio]

unfortunately, color changing reagents are the easiest test for the layman to do. Really GC/MS testing has to be done, because color-changing tests don't make any effort to seperate and identify the individual components. MP testing will be a devil to do accurately with mixtures of crude pill extract.

As you can rather plainly see it is possible for someone to make a pill with a complex mixture in it, that tests "positive" for MDMA with the common reagent tests. Hence the Maruqis/Mecke/Mandelin are really only a verification method - they are designed not to fail if you test pure MDMA, not designed to always positively identify it.

There is nothing the lay-man can do but avoid "bad" pill batches. MP equipment is expensive, more color-change ragents won't really help. The "next level" is GC/MS testing, or TLC.

Perhaps a method for silica TLC using Marquis/Mecke as "developers" would work to seperate gnarlies from MDMA. Low cost and effective if you know hwo to do it.

 

[futura2012]

Hello Sekio

Much appreciate your input.

So I assume a MP test from a pill scratch would just melt at the substance with the lowest melting point. Would that be a correct assumption?

Perhaps a method for silica TLC using Marquis/Mecke as "developers" would work to seperate gnarlies from MDMA. Low cost and effective if you know hwo to do it.

Would you mind explaining this in a bit more detail. Some how you use the reaction marqis liquids in the chromotography is that what you mean?


My other thought was is there anyway of getting the MDMA to dissolve in a particular isolated way? maybe a certain solvent?

My other thought is could you crush up one of these pills, dissolve the contents and some how only recrystalize out the MDMA salt?

I guess doing this we are getting in the land of acids and solvents kind of moving out of the "user" zone.

I guess fractional distillation would work :D but its trying to find something that we can advise people to do that is quite simple.

Theres a lot of moaning about these reagent tests as the MDMA crystal now is also getting heavily cut particularly in the States.

Its frustrating not having an answer.

I also wondered about UV light? I noticed a picture where by someone claimed MDMA crystal illuminated under UV light.

My other thought was a microscope.

 

[sn23]

Hey futura, you got a quite complicated subject there.

MP analysis can be rather sensitive, so that even relatively pure substances can have too low melting points. A pill is a complex mixture, besides MDMA they at least contain fillers which could easily be enough to fuck the MP up. The lowest melting substance does not necessarily melt first. It could potentially form a mixture with another chemical which melts at a lower temp than any of its components (look up some info about eutectic mixtures if you're interested). I'd expect a pill scratch and even extracts to have a 'bad' melting point, even if the pill is only reasonably pure MDMA+fillers.
Because of that MP analysis is only suitable for very well known systems (industrially used alloys and such) and for almost pure substances to check if it's pure or not.
I guess, with regard to obtainable informations, the MP is worse than colour reactions.

As sekio pointed out, normal phase silica TLC is likely the best 'low cost' method. But still, at least the TLC plates, various organic solvents and colour reagents are needed.
TLC distributes and separates the components according to their physico-chemical properties on a plate (as spots). The separation pattern relative to starting point and solvent front is an indicator for the identity of the individual spots. Colour reagents add another dimension to the analysis, because - in addition to chromatographic properties - chemical information about the spot can be obtained.

Yeah, extraction and recrystallization would be a possibility if a few doses of purported MDMA are worth the hassle.

Fractional destillation of MDMA would require a good (expensive) apparatus and a vacuum pump (expensive).

Lots of substances glow under UV light and lots don't, so that wouldn't be conclusive either.

I'm sorry, but there just is no quick and easy and affordable way to conclusively test pills.

Analysis of such complex mixtures is frustrating.

 

[Transform]

So the problem is that they're positive for MDMA, but also contain other things? Why not investigate other reagent tests?

There are the normal ones, but there are also all of these too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Drug_testing_reagents

 

[sekio]

I'm sorry, but there just is no quick and easy and affordable way to conclusively test pills.

Fractional crystallization won't help unless the major component of the pill is MDMA.

Silica chromatography is basically suspending the MDMA on fine white ovendried sand and "washing" it selectively off with the right mixture of solvents. It's the "gold standard" for fishing out compounds from messy mixtures, but it wouldn't really help to do it on tiny volumes, too much work for too little compound.

 

[Folley]

With these reagent tests as my references:


http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=29579
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=23689
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=21580
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=21578
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=23624



I say it's really not that hard at all to tell if a pill is just trying to trick the tester or not... 15mg or less of MDMA stacked against a medium dose of piperazine isn't going to produce a black enough puddle to fool even a newbie. People should be able to tell if a pill just has a tiny amount of MDMA to fool the test relatively easily.

Now, a pill that has a substantial dose of MDMA (less common, because then why not just make a good pill?) and is adulterated with another substance or even more than one is going to be a lot harder to spot, but the marquis is actually pretty damn good at being able to discern substances in the same sample.

Sooo... I still stay just rely on the reagents. I only buy the well known pills anyways because I have 3+ months in between each roll to shop lmao, but if I found a new pill and it tested perfect to all the reagents I would have no hesitation in taking that pill

 

[pofacedhoe]

or just buy mdma crystal...

 

[Folley]

or just buy mdma crystal...

Crystal might be more commonly adulterated than pills, I know that a good probably 60% of the "Molly" sold in the US is methylone or another cathinone.


I've PERSONALLY seen and taken a capsule that tested for MDMA and was adulterated with TFMPP. I didn't have a reagent at the time, but when I tested a bit of it 5 months later it had a purple reaction positive for MDxx. There was no mistaking what else was in that shit though

This is actually what I took:
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2371

Minus the procaine and lidocaine, I think someone added that so they could send it into ED and know the doses. What I got was like sticky/gooey clumps of brown shit