Explaining Psychedelics to others

[crOOk]

Well I apologize for overreacting, however you have to accept that not everyone's subjective experiences will cohere with yours. I've done high doses of mescaline, including whole bridgesii cacti multiple times, and I highly doubt that mescaline hcl is somehow "more deep" than these experiences given the alkaloid spectrum of something like bridgesii. I enjoyed the experiences very much, but it simply wasn't my thing, it wasn't anywhere near my favorite psychedelic. I have intimate experience with 2c-e, DOC, 2c-i, and others, and while I wouldn't put all of the RCs I've done above mescaline, I would certainly put 2c-e above it, and that's my right and I would never claim either a "superior substance" by any objective criteria.

But the pharmacology of classical psychedelics and MDMA is quite different, which I'm sure you know... one is a releaser and one is a receptor ligand. Of course their effects on the body are going to be quite different, and their metabolites are going to be different as well. I don't claim to know much about malignant hyperthermia but it seems a bit useless to say that because both act on the same receptors, it is odd that they have differing side effects.

While I do admit that my last example was very bad considering the different mechanisms of the two drugs, I wonder why you keep attacking me on a level like that. It's gonna leaed nowhere and I'm not gonna join in.

Regarding the mescaline hcl, I was referring to hcl salts of an alkaloid mix obtained by performing an a/b extraction on dried cactus plant matter. I apologize sincerely for having suggested I'd know anything about what you enjoy and don't enjoy.

 

[IamMe90]

While I do admit that my last example was very bad considering the different mechanisms of the two drugs, I wonder why you keep attacking me on a level like that. It's gonna leaed nowhere and I'm not gonna join in.

Regarding the mescaline hcl, I was referring to hcl salts of an alkaloid mix obtained by performing an a/b extraction on dried cactus plant matter. I apologize sincerely for having suggested I'd know anything about what you enjoy and don't enjoy.

Did you really take that as "attacking" you? You posted something that was factually questionable and I pointed that out, I didn't make any kind of personal attack or any reference to anything about you. Now I'm not the one that needs to calm down Let's all just chill

 

[crOOk]

But the pharmacology of classical psychedelics and MDMA is quite different, which I'm sure you know... one is a releaser and one is a receptor ligand. Of course their effects on the body are going to be quite different, and their metabolites are going to be different as well. I don't claim to know much about malignant hyperthermia but it seems a bit useless to say that because both act on the same receptors, it is odd that they have differing side effects.

While I do admit that both the 2nd and 3rd example were unfitting and unneeded (the latter being caused by a a misconception about the effects of MDMA), I wonder why you keep attacking me on a level like that. It's gonna leaed nowhere...
I replied to your statement "the psychedelic experience is generally very similar in effect within classes" (which followed the not-so-subtle insult) and simply tried to name examples where this is not the case. The first one being dmt and mescaline (or psilocin to come structurally as close as possible) and that one was sufficient to show that the experience can be vastly different despite a very similar structure and being considered to be in the same class. Further examples would be DPT and AMT or DiPT and 5-MeO-DMT. They all share common traits, but can't really be compared when it comes to their impact on the mind.

Regarding the mescaline hcl, I was referring to hcl salts of an alkaloid mix obtained by performing an a/b extraction on dried cactus plant matter. I apologize sincerely for having suggested I'd know anything about what you enjoy and don't enjoy. Oh and btw, alkaloid extract and plant matter are a whole different ballgame and I've personally never managed to ingest enough cactus to get to where the alkaloid salts alone take me and even if I did, the slow absorption can cause the trip to build up over 4h before reaching a plateau which is not comparable to seeing your puke sparkle like a see of diamonds within 15minutes after ingesting the drug. Oh right, you don't really think the difference is worth talking about and even mentioning that it might take you anywhere you haven't been yet seems to trigger a defense response.

It should also be noted, though, that there are many subtypes of 5-hydroxytryptamine receptors which account for many different types of hallucinations and sensation (which is why I suggested organic chemistry). These mechanisms are the root source of the psychedelic experience.

Relating all this to the topic, many people will take you much more seriously if you really understand what is happening in your body, and can show them that it is legitimately not unhealthy, and even good for you.

So I joked "Mescaline is good for you because it's natural" which you then took as reason to insult me by telling me to learn basic biochemistry. Now you're holding onto that cheap shit by implying that neither are people taking me seriously, nor do I know what is going on in my body.

I'm sorry if you think so because this way neither of us will learn anything from one another. I actually consider myself to have pretty good knowledge of the human body overall, but it's not easy to remember everything from the anatomy of the toes over the developement of the teeth to the effects mdma has on your body. Kudos if you can, but with calling such exceptional talents your own it seems hardly fair to expect the same from me.

Therefore a suggestion: Before pointing out what you consider a false statement in the form of a plump insult, why not educate other people with the correct version instead? I personally would love to hear your version of how different psychedelic experiences relate to different 5HTr's... That being said, I do not consider psychedelics "good" as a whole. They have some medical uses (few though) and I personally have enjoyed them immensely and extensively, but I would most definitely rather consider them a threat to a person's health before I claim they're "legitimately not unhealthy", especially not when considering the fact that some of these chemicals you two are referring to (DOC and 2C-E) have never seen any clinical trials sufficient to determin a safety profile.

Aside from that, the problem was the being taken TOO seriously instead of not seriously enough.

 

[crOOk]

Did you really take that as "attacking" you? You posted something that was factually questionable and I pointed that out, I didn't make any kind of personal attack or any reference to anything about you. Now I'm not the one that needs to calm down Let's all just chill

Yeah just chilling would probably be a good idea, I always feel some e-shame when these discussions occur, I thought you were attacking me specifically because while pointing out my error, you used the same phrasing as me ("I'm sure you know") which kinda seemed as if you were mocking me. :D Now if you were actually serious: I didn't really know that much about the mdma effects profile, but needless to say I surely should have known that mdma causes presynaptic serotonine release (whereever) considering that this information must've crossed my path many times. Well, if you were serious then I guess I was just being paranoid, but that easily happens when to people are pretty much on the same page demonstrating their disagreement on what was meant to be a lighthearted initial response and one of them insulting me directly. I apologize if that's the case (sincerely this time).

And btw, my example wasn't only "questionable", but plain misplaced and based on misconceptions I had at the time, you were entirely right to point that out and not leave it standing in the room.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

cr00k, you are far too defensive.
Ad hominem remarks have no place in debate and serious discussion; this is even in the forum rules.
I am not attacking you; people are not attacking you.

(In the first place, how would I know you were joking?
Remarks like that are presenting misinformation; there are many naturals that are not in any way safe.)
Telling you to learn basic organic chemistry is not an attack.
You should know this before you engage in a debate regarding the material.
And you should definitely check your information before you make a post.

Additionally, I am not implying anything.
You'd do well to not read into words too much.
I speak concisely, and my words carry no deeper meaning than their Merriam-Webster.

Regarding the rest of your post, it is a known fact that these RCs have not been clinically tested.
Therefore it is, of course, irrational to place a label of safe on any.
However, the neurological processes that generate the psychedelic experience are not adverse to physical health.
The effects on mental health are individual, but anecdotal evidence has at least shown that they are minimal (in moderate doses).

As for psychedelics as a whole, I would classify them as positive.
"Good" and "Bad" are fallacious concepts in my opinion, due to their subjectivity.
However, the basis of my classification as positive is that the majority of empirical psychedelic research (not theory or application, only legitimate physiology and anecdotal experience of integration) has shown that psychedelics are more useful than detrimental in applied fields.

 

[huolesoh]

crook
I personally have always recommend ridiculously high dosages for psychedelic-naïve people. Like the difference between climbing a waggly ladder and sky diving if that makes sense.

no yes i see what you mean. i have been developing a concept along the same lines; imagine "running into a wall of glass." if you don't hit it hard enough you won't smash through it, it will just crack a bit. cue anticlimax!

crook
Mods also deleted the picture of my collection back in 2006, in case you remember that one.

can't say i did, relatively new ! did however find a few pictures of crystals on mytocopia, but i'd assume they are from someone else