Experiences with psychadelic amphetamines while bipolar?

[Drew.]

Happy Friday, y'all.

So this is kind of a curious question , as I'm sure there must be someone who can relate to the interaction between amphetamines and bipolar disorder/ADD.

My question revolves around harm reduction and I'm wondering if ANYONE here has an exclusive experience (OR KNOWLEDGE) of what might happen if a person with a mild bipolar /ADD if they dose, say - the psychadelic amphetamine DOC. Even if they do not take medication for either ailments, is they're sa possibility of a poor reaction?

Any comments are welcome, even if it's in relation to OTHER amphetamines... you'd think they may have similar interactions with the brain like the commonly prescribed ADD meds?

 

[AA357]

I would be much more worried about LSD than anything else. LSD has powerful dopaminergic activity, which makes it a lot different to most psychedelics. It's a crazy powerful stimulant. I'm not even manic or bipolar but strong doses of acid trigger full-blown mania in me. Racing thoughts, flight of ideas, can't concentrate, feeling godlike, easily angered... the whole package. If you have bipolar then it might trigger a manic episode.

The term 'psychedelic amphetamine' sounds pretty daunting and even just plain wrong, but it's not what you'd expect. DOx drugs are very different to regular amphetamine in their effects (AFAIK they have no significant effect on monoamine levels). IME DOM is only slightly stimulating and similar in ways to 2C-E.

Oh yeah, and stay the fuck away from psychedelics if you're taking lithium. I know LSD + lithium is a recipe for seizures/death.

 

[immad]

DOx are amphetamines and psychedelic, so 'psychedelic amphetamine' is completely correct.

Reactions can vary, for me, DOM is very, very stimulating. As in, if I take 5 mg DOM I don't know what to do with myself from the uncomfortable stimulation. I have used ~2 mg with 20 mg 4-AcO-DMT to almost run up mountains in Norway, which was pretty neat. I'm not aware of having bipolar disorder or ADD though.

If you proceed, please do yourself a favor and start low and don't do it too often. Take your time, better a couple of dull trips than one potential disaster (unless you're 110 and expect to die yesterday ).

 

[AA357]

DOx are amphetamines and psychedelic, so 'psychedelic amphetamine' is completely correct.

FFS, why does every other fucking post I type on here get misinterpreted??? I can't believe I'm having to explain myself yet again. Am I really that incoherent???
Go read my post again. I never said that they weren't amphetamines or that that the term wasn't correct:

The term 'psychedelic amphetamine' sounds pretty daunting and even just plain wrong

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wrong
^^^When I said it 'sounds wrong' I meant that the prospect of taking such a chemical is very daunting for many people. There is nothing factually wrong with the term 'psychedelic amphetamine' and I don't have a problem with it... it's just a scary idea. I always imagined such a drug would make me feel tweaked out of my mind and tripping at the same time. This wasn't the case. Yes it's a chemically an amphetamine but it's nowhere near as stimulating as straight amphetamine and its pharmacology is totally different (amphetamine is a powerful DA/NE releaser whereas DOx work as serotonin agonists and have no significant effect on monoamine release or reuptake).

Reactions can vary, for me, DOM is very, very stimulating. As in, if I take 5 mg DOM I don't know what to do with myself from the uncomfortable stimulation. I have used ~2 mg with 20 mg 4-AcO-DMT to almost run up mountains in Norway, which was pretty neat. I'm not aware of having bipolar disorder or ADD though.

If you proceed, please do yourself a favor and start low and don't do it too often. Take your time, better a couple of dull trips than one potential disaster (unless you're 110 and expect to die yesterday ).

I would never bother taking less than 5mg. I take 5mg for a moderate trip and 10mg for a strong trip. I use this shit as a pre-workout supplement sometimes.
To each their own I guess. It sounds like the OP is fixated on the 'amphetamine' part and therefore worried about excessive stimulation (like I was before I tried DOM). DOx don't actually cause stimulation through the same mechanisms as amphetamine or methamphetamine... their pharmacology is like that of other psychedelic phenethylamines.

In theory LSD should be the most stimulating of the classical psychedelics, as it's the only one that has significant dopaminergic activity (it's very unique in this regard). This would probably make it the worst psychedelic for somebody with bipolar or mania to take. As I said before, this stuff makes me manic and as far as I'm aware I'm not even predisposed to mania.

 

[immad]

FFS, why does every other fucking post I type on here get misinterpreted??? I can't believe I'm having to explain myself yet again. Am I really that incoherent???
Go read my post again. I never said that they weren't amphetamines or that that the term wasn't correct:

Yes, you did say that:

....The term 'psychedelic amphetamine' sounds pretty daunting and even just plain wrong, but it's not what you'd expect....

I just wanted to warn the OP for the various reactions people have to DOx. I know I'm unusual, but for me, DOM is at least as stimulating as the equivalent dose of pharmaceutical dexamphetamine. I know no-one else who has that reaction though. You're also unusual, however, taking 10 mg for a work out. IIRC you also tend to take 2C-E multiple times a week, so factor in significant tolerance for that.

Not that there's anything wrong with using DOM for the gym, I just wanted to advice the OP to tread cautiously, especially since the resulting trip might be complicated by bipolar disorder. A triggered mixed state on a powerful, very long lasting psychedelic, which might even be very stimulating for him as well, sounds like hell to me.

 

[Drew.]

Just want to make it clear that I have NEITHER of these ailments. This is solely for a curious friend who has done LSD, MDMA, and shrooms.
LSD they have done more times than you can count on your fingers for sure. One time he had a mania attack during come up where everything was just sensory overload. But after the come up he was just fine.

I find it interesting to know that LSD IS considered the classic most powerful psychedelic stim, so would DOC not be even greater so due to its 24 hour duration?

Keep in mind I'd done this a few times and know what to expect for me. I find Doc the cleanest chem I've had in years and I find the crazy simulation goes away and turns into a euphoric orgasmic trip.

I also read from someone that they compared the effect to taking ADD meds \prescribed amphetamines. Do you think this would be the case with DOC?

 

[Drew.]

I would be much more worried about LSD than anything else. LSD has powerful dopaminergic activity, which makes it a lot different to most psychedelics. It's a crazy powerful stimulant. I'm not even manic or bipolar but strong doses of acid trigger full-blown mania in me. Racing thoughts, flight of ideas, can't concentrate, feeling godlike, easily angered... the whole package. If you have bipolar then it might trigger a manic episode.

The term 'psychedelic amphetamine' sounds pretty daunting and even just plain wrong, but it's not what you'd expect.

This is something the user has experienced whilst on LSD. I just wonder if this would happen on DOC , especially if it's not as much as a 'mind bender."

And yeah it sounds wrong to call the drug what it is if you are stereotyping it as something worse like methamphet... Or something heh. But I'm responsible in making sure I know what I'm taking so I tend to go by specific classes.

 

[AA357]

Yes, you did say that:

Did you forget to take your meds today or are you just retarded?

When the fuck did I ever say DOx chemicals weren't amphetamines? I explained what I meant by 'sounds wrong'. Allow me to reiterate myself:
I don't mean the fucking definition sounds wrong, I mean the IDEA OF A PSYCHEDELIC AMPHETAMINE MIGHT SOUND WRONG TO SOME PEOPLE. 'Wrong' in this case means weird, dodgy, daunting... scary even. NOT factually wrong or incorrect.

 

[immad]

Did you forget to take your meds today or are you just retarded?

When the fuck did I say ever DOx chemicals weren't amphetamines? I explained what I meant by 'sounds wrong'. Allow me to reiterate myself:
I don't mean the fucking definition sounds wrong, I mean the IDEA OF A PSYCHEDELIC AMPHETAMINE MIGHT SOUND WRONG TO SOME PEOPLE. 'Wrong' in this case means weird, dodgy, daunting... scary even. NOT factually wrong or incorrect.

At the very least it was ambiguously worded, but lets quit this childish bickery.

OP: please report back to us if your friend tries it. To me, DOM (the only DOx I've tried) is much more stimulating that LSD, but feelings of mania do not increase 1:1 with the stimulation. Therefore I'd say that, assuming "equal" trippiness, LSD is more manic than DOM.

How does the mania of the different DOx relate to each other?

 

[AA357]

This is something the user has experienced whilst on LSD. I just wonder if this would happen on DOC , especially if it's not as much as a 'mind bender."

And yeah it sounds wrong to call the drug what it is if you are stereotyping it as something worse like methamphet... Or something heh. But I'm responsible in making sure I know what I'm taking so I tend to go by specific classes.

There is nothing wrong with the term psychedelic amphetamine - that's exactly what these drugs are. DOC is the amphetamine (alpha methyl) analog of 2C-C, the phenethylamine.

But to answer your question regarding the effects of DOC in relation to prescription amphetamines (which include racemic amphetamine, dexamphetamine and d-methamphetamine): their pharmacodynamics could not be more different.

What I'm saying is not to get hung up on the fact that DOC is chemically an amphetamine because there is nothing remotely amphetamine-like about its effects.
Amphetamine is a powerful DA/NE releaser. Methamphetamine is a dopamine, norepinephrine AND serotonin releasing agent.
DOx are classical psychedelic drugs that exert their effects through agonism of various serotonin receptors - they don't function as amphetamines AT ALL and have no noticeable effect on monoamine levels. Any stimulation from DOC would be purely a result of 5HT agonism (nobody knows exactly why some psychedelics feel stimulating and others feel sedating but it has something to do with receptor subtypes). Nothing about the pharmacology of DOx suggests they are any more likely to trigger mania than their phenethylamine counterparts.

I can't say I would recommend psychedelics to somebody with bipolar, but I'm sure this person would respond more favorably to DOC than LSD.
LSD has the inherent potential to trigger mania because of its significant dopaminergic activity (which is unique to LSD and most probably its analogs)... this also makes it the most stimulating of all the classical psychedelics by a very wide margin.

 

[AA357]

To me, DOM (the only DOx I've tried) is much more stimulating that LSD, but feelings of mania do not increase 1:1 with the stimulation. Therefore I'd say that, assuming "equal" trippiness, LSD is more manic than DOM.

I do find DOM to be fairly stimulating, but LSD is definitely the most stimulating and manic psychedelic I've tried (makes perfect sense considering how it works).

Here is a quote I found on another BL thread with regards to stimulation from DOx:
"The term amphetamine here is used to denote structural configuration, its not meant to group compounds by pharmacological action"

It's entirely plausible that you find DOM stimulating, but the fact that it's chemically an amphetamine is a mere coincidence.

 

[Xorkoth]

I wish you'd be a little more measured in your replies sometimes AA... it doesn't seem to me that outbursts of name-calling were at all necessary or called for in this discussion. And having that sort of thing in threads can put people off from participating, especially new people unsure whether they want to register.

 

[immad]

...DOx are classical psychedelic drugs that exert their effects through agonism of various serotonin receptors - they don't function as amphetamines AT ALL and have no noticeable effect on monoamine levels. Any stimulation from DOC would be purely a result of 5HT agonism (nobody knows exactly why some psychedelics feel stimulating and others feel sedating but it has something to do with receptor subtypes). Nothing about the pharmacology of DOx suggests they are any more likely to trigger mania than their phenethylamine counterparts....

Please be more precise in your use of the term amphetamines. For you, it may be clear you mean the unsubstituted amphetamine backbone and its related stimulant cousins, but this might not be the case for less informed users. An amphetamine has to function as an amphetamine, by definition.

It's not true though that DOx only act through serotonin. At least DOM, DOET, DOB and DOI also work on adrenergic receptors. Both DOB and DOI also activate dopamine receptors, although weakly (and also relatively more weakly compared to LSD). Since DOC also has a halogen at the 4-position, it's not that far fetched to assume at least weak activity on dopamine receptors. See Ray [2010].

 

[hypnagogic]

My brother has been diagnosed with bipolar and has a good amount of experience with psychedelics. He's taken over 400 mics of LSD, 5 grams of mushrooms, and breakthrough doses of DMT minutes after blowing a 300mg line of ketamine and never had anything but a great time. However, the two times he took 25mg doses of 2C-E he completely lost his shit. Once ended up in the hospital and another time had to be fed Xanax until he knew where he was again. He hasn't had any psychedelic phenethylamines since. The fact that he only ever had that reaction from 2C-E could be coincidental but it's worth considering.

 

[Peacephrog1972]

"I would never bother taking less than 5mg. I take 5mg for a moderate trip and 10mg for a strong trip. I use this shit as a pre-workout supplement sometimes."

and of course the rest of us simpleton folk can rest assured that godlike figures like you lift world class weights for 20+ hours on psychedelics....and drop 2CE several times a week for shits and giggles

god bless you man

 

[AA357]

I wish you'd be a little more measured in your replies sometimes AA... it doesn't seem to me that outbursts of name-calling were at all necessary or called for in this discussion. And having that sort of thing in threads can put people off from participating, especially new people unsure whether they want to register.

Apologies for my short temper. One thing I hate is repeatedly having to explain simple things. I have no patience for people who nitpick and twist my words.

Please be more precise in your use of the term amphetamines. For you, it may be clear you mean the unsubstituted amphetamine backbone and its related stimulant cousins, but this might not be the case for less informed users.

Sorry, you've lost me... I thought the word 'amphetamine' meant two things:
1) The drug alphamethylphenethylamine.
2) A class of drugs (known as 'amphetamines') which share the amphetamine backbone. Methamphetamine, halogenated amphetamines, MDxx and DOx are all chemically amphetamines.

An amphetamine has to function as an amphetamine, by definition.

How so? Chemical structure aside, please explain to me how the DOx drugs are any more similar to straight amphetamine than any of the other classical psychedelics.

It's not true though that DOx only act through serotonin. At least DOM, DOET, DOB and DOI also work on adrenergic receptors. Both DOB and DOI also activate dopamine receptors, although weakly (and also relatively more weakly compared to LSD). Since DOC also has a halogen at the 4-position, it's not that far fetched to assume at least weak activity on dopamine receptors. See Ray [2010].

Don't all psychedelics work on adrenergic receptors to a degree?

2C-B activates dopamine receptors... I wouldn't be surprised if other non-amphetamine psychedelics had this effect.

I have found a few studies comparing the effects of various different psychedelic drugs.
None of the DOx chemicals mentioned have demonstrated any significant dopaminergic or adrenergic activity... they are pharmacodynamically quite similar to their phenethylamine counterparts and there is nothing particularly unique about the way they work.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24142203
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3110631/
http://psychedelic-information-theory.com/Psychedelic-Pharmacology

My brother has been diagnosed with bipolar and has a good amount of experience with psychedelics. He's taken over 400 mics of LSD, 5 grams of mushrooms, and breakthrough doses of DMT minutes after blowing a 300mg line of ketamine and never had anything but a great time. However, the two times he took 25mg doses of 2C-E he completely lost his shit. Once ended up in the hospital and another time had to be fed Xanax until he knew where he was again. He hasn't had any psychedelic phenethylamines since. The fact that he only ever had that reaction from 2C-E could be coincidental but it's worth considering.

2C-E is definitely not for everybody.
I personally love the stuff, but some people say it feels dirty, dysphoric and anxiogenic.
From a purely neurological point of view, LSD is more likely to trigger mania or psychosis than 2C-E because it's also a D2 agonist. That said, the mind is a very powerful thing... if you love LSD and hate 2C-E then chances are you are a lot more likely to lose your shit on 2C-E.

"I would never bother taking less than 5mg. I take 5mg for a moderate trip and 10mg for a strong trip. I use this shit as a pre-workout supplement sometimes."

and of course the rest of us simpleton folk can rest assured that godlike figures like you lift world class weights for 20+ hours on psychedelics....and drop 2CE several times a week for shits and giggles

god bless you man

Cheers dude.

 

[Rio Fantastic]

I'm guessing you'll probably be ignoring this response as it isn't what you want to hear, but I'll give you my 2 cents based on my personal experiences.

First of all, what do you mean by "mild bipolar/ADD"?? I'd understand if you put mild bipolar and ADD, but "mild bipolar/ADD?? They're not interchangeable tems at all, they're totally distinct conditions that aren't easily mistaken. It sounds to me like your "friend" is yet another one jumping on the "lol im bipolar!!!11 sometimes im happy and sometimes im sad, im a special unique bipolar snowflake and not just a normal person with emotions" bandwagon that seems to be becoming increasingly prevalent amongst adolescents. The fact that they seem to think that they have "mild" bipolar and ADD strongly suggests to me they have nothing wrong with them at all. Has your friend actually been diagnosed? There are many types of bipolar, but none of them can really be called MILD. Even cyclothymia, the so-called "softest" form of bipolar disorder, is characterised by enormous changes in mood, energy levels, impulsivity, grandiosity etc that still cannot rightfully be called MILD and still involves huge disruption to the sufferer's life.

As someone who actually is bipolar (I've been professionally diagnosed and had to be hospitalised for three months after turning my severe hypomanic episode into full-blown mania with drugs) I've learnt the hard way that there are NO drugs that we can take that won't have consequences that wouldn't be there for someone without bipolar disorder. I would strongly caution someone with bipolar disorder to even think long and hard about smoking weed or having a drink, because even that can be enough to trigger a depression or mania in us, and even when substances don't send us into a full blown episode they can cause severe but sub-clinical disruption in our moods and energy levels for days and even weeks after a single time (this is something I've experienced with every drug I've ever taken). Something as powerful as DOC I would strongly suggest they avoid. Whilst I've never personally tried it, powerful psychedelics can very easily trigger mood episodes with people who have bipolar disorder, and the effects are much more unpredictable in bipolars at best. For me personally, LSD has been directly responsible for three hypomanic episodes and I know a few people with bipolar who have attributed the 2C-x drugs as the cause of episodes in the past.

So is it a good idea? No not if your friend legitimately does have bipolar disorder and isn't just jumping on the bandwagon with their "mild" bipolar and ADD. If they insist on doing it then I'd strongly strongly advise that you trip sit with them though - it's always a good idea to have a sober person sitting when people trip anyway, but the importance of a sober trip sitter increases massively when the person tripping has a mental illness.

 

[Drew.]

Thanks. I'm not ignoring anything you're saying; I'm not a child who ignores what he doesn't want to hear.
In fact, I'm doing this solely to establish the PROS and CONS of potentially taking a substance when a person has been diagnosed with (a) mental illness.
Maybe the person had been professionally diagnosed, and they choose not to participate in pharmaceuticals to remedy their issue. That's neither for me or anyone else to decide.
So perhaps there are details that I'm not mentioning, but I'm not making any illnesses up.
And if this person HADN'T been professionally diagnosed, I'd jump on board and say he's assuming way too much and jumping the band wagon like he tends to do.

I also mentioned I was with him during a manic episode (more than once now thinking of it)whilst on something psychedelic, thus helping prove that SOMETHING is amiss there..

And as far as I'm concern that last post nailed the coffin for him. I would never condone or allow myself to let someone else contribute in such reckless activity. I am VERY concerned for the well-being of the individual.

 

[greengummybear]

Tldr:

...(i've been professionally diagnosed and had to be hospitalised for three months after turning my severe hypomanic episode into full-blown mania with drugs) i've learnt the hard way that there are no drugs that we can take that won't have consequences that wouldn't be there for someone without bipolar disorder. I would strongly caution someone with bipolar disorder to even think long and hard about smoking weed or having a drink, because even that can be enough to trigger a depression or mania in us...

 

[Drew.]

What does TLDR stand for?

I just find it odd that he smokes green on near daily basis; and alcohol he drinks often too. Whether or not he has anything - i don't know. But maybe he's not nearly as affected as others would be. Or maybe he has ups and downs with a side of depression; who knows.
Maybe he's climbing a slippery slope as i type. I am concerned and just don't know!
I'll definitely let him look at the later replies to this. Thanks.