Experience with ketamine therapy for depression

[e1evene1even]

I find MXE superior for this purpose.

 

[psytaco]

Excellent thread, Foreigner. All of your threads and responses seem to add great value on BL.

I stumbled across the research of ketamine being used as an antidepressant after noticing a great reduction in sub-clinical symptoms of depression after using recreational dosages.

I now suffer from more severe depression and am interested in trying ketamine again for its antidepressant properties. I do have a few questions though:

1) Is it safe to use ketamine whilst taking mirtazapine? I have been prescribed it for depression and whilst not a perfect drug it got me out of a very dark place and has gotten me to the point of slow improvement and functionality.

2) I am not overly keen on the idea of regular low doses of K. Mainly because I am worried about it affecting the quality of my work and being noticed at work. Also, there is a lot of risk with me bringing drugs into my work place and using them there. Are weekly doses of ketamine also quite beneficial?

3) I do enjoy the serenity that accompanies ketamine use. Would it be a bad idea to occassionally shoot for a k hole or a more recreational dose now and then whilst using it for antidepressant qualities?

This one is to Forienger and others who have tried it. Did you notice long term relief from depression? My depression is episodic in nature and I am slowly coming out of an episode. Do you think it is possible that ketamine could cause remission of the depressive episode?

 

[Spacemonkey5000]

I see alot of value in using dissios and esp ketamine for therapeutic use, however i dont think only ketamine will do the trick.

Some of my most useful and life changing trips has been combining ketamine with high doses of shrooms, lsd or 4aco-dmt.


Ketamine by itself makes you a fiendish junkie, but mixed with a strong psych it can create heavy change in behavior.

 

[Foreigner]

1) Is it safe to use ketamine whilst taking mirtazapine? I have been prescribed it for depression and whilst not a perfect drug it got me out of a very dark place and has gotten me to the point of slow improvement and functionality.

I can't answer this as I know nothing about mirtazapine. You might want to ask in Other Drugs.

2) I am not overly keen on the idea of regular low doses of K. Mainly because I am worried about it affecting the quality of my work and being noticed at work. Also, there is a lot of risk with me bringing drugs into my work place and using them there. Are weekly doses of ketamine also quite beneficial?

Low doses of ketamine have the opposite effect of high doses. They increase cognition and general mental skill level. The slight euphoric disorientation disappears after about 15-20 minutes, and then you're normal again, but with more lucid awareness and novelty.

For therapeutic purposes, I don't support high doses of ketamine. As of right now, I can take one 10mg dose once a week via IM, and it restores my stability for about 7 days or so.

3) I do enjoy the serenity that accompanies ketamine use. Would it be a bad idea to occassionally shoot for a k hole or a more recreational dose now and then whilst using it for antidepressant qualities?

The great thing about ketamine is that you can do higher doses and then revert to the low dose schedule to undo the damage that the high dose did. It's a very versatile drug and the different dosing levels have completely different impacts on the body. That said, if you keep doing high doses often, don't expect the low dose schedule to always save you. And if you combine with other drugs, even cannabis, the therapeutic value is completely lost. Recently I injected 10mg ketamine and then smoked a joint before the ketamine's onset. The high was grossly potentiated and the next morning I woke up feeling like shit.

The NMDA receptor damage done by high doses is usually not fully reversible, and you'll need more and more ketamine to feel high with time. I've read reports that abusers have used the low dose schedule to recover but it's not something I can sanction due to lack of experience. Plus, chances are if you are prone to abuse then ketamine is not going to be a wise choice as a recovery drug.

Now that I have seen the vast improvements to my mind thanks to low dosing, I have no desire at all to go higher. Lower doses make me feel lucidly in control of my life, whereas higher doses completely dissociate me from it.

Just remember that OCCASIONAL high doses are probably ok, but if you do it regularly you will have ketamine damage.

Did you notice long term relief from depression?

Yes I did.

My depression is episodic in nature and I am slowly coming out of an episode. Do you think it is possible that ketamine could cause remission of the depressive episode?

I realized after doing ketamine that my depression was chronic and had episodic spikes. The chronic aspect seems permanently absent now, and I do 10mg ketamine during an episode and it smooths me out.

Thanks for the thread dude. I think your posts add a lot of value to bluelight.

You're welcome, and thank you for the kind words.

 

[Foreigner]

A friend and I have been discussing the use of magnesium oil to ease muscle tension, calm anxiety, and for general use in therapy. I started doing more investigating tonight and I just happened across some really fascinating and insightful research that links magnesium deficiency to depression through the same receptor system that ketamine acts on.

Magnesium plays a key role in channel blocking of the NMDA receptor to prevent excess simulation. It's this over-stimulation from stress related neural activity that causes down-regulation and eventually mental depression. This thread has so far talked about using ketamine to regenerate those receptors, but it turns out that proper magnesium levels in the body will act as a voltage-gate to protect the receptor sites from damage.

Additionally, one study I came across (marked with a *) indicates that taking magnesium and ketamine simultaneously will amplify the effects of both. This could mean that in addition to the ketamine therapy plan I proposed, one could also supplement with magnesium to increase the resiliency of the newly regenerate receptors, rendering the therapy more effective.

Of interest:

Magnesium and the brain:
http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.ca/2010/10/magnesium-and-brain.html
- a blog post with good scientific sources, and digestible for people not versed in science speak

Modulation of NMDA receptor function by ketamine and magnesium*:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11323343

The mechanism of magnesium block of NMDA receptors:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1044576584710128

I've also come across other anecdotes mentioning the equal importance of zinc in regulating the NMDA receptors and the hippocampus, but will have to post more about that later.

The following page discusses the top food sources of magnesium, as well as its general functions in the body. It also mentions the NMDA receptor link:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=75

I am very excited by this info, and will definitely try including high magnesium foods on the days of my ketamine therapy.

 

[hypnagogic]

Thanks for sharing this information. My brother was diagnosed with bipolar years ago and has had very little success with conventional treatments with many even making his symptoms worse. He tried ketamine over a year ago and described it to me as the first time he had felt real happiness in years. Since then he's had trouble with crossing the line between use and abuse so it's nice to see other people's regimens that I can share with him to keep him in a healthier routine.

 

[cashmunny]

I'm kind of in the same boat. Multiple trials and failures with SSRIs, SNRI's etc. I'm getting a ketamine treatment through my psychiatirst but it ain't cheap...$300. That and it's a pretty stiff dose: about 50 mg in an IV drip over the course of an hour. I like your idea of small doses spread out better.

I don't have access to ketamine but may be able to get MXE through the research chemical route. Thoughts?

 

[hypnagogic]

I'm kind of in the same boat. Multiple trials and failures with SSRIs, SNRI's etc. I'm getting a ketamine treatment through my psychiatirst but it ain't cheap...$300. That and it's a pretty stiff dose: about 50 mg in an IV drip over the course of an hour. I like your idea of small doses spread out better.

I don't have access to ketamine but may be able to get MXE through the research chemical route. Thoughts?

I think if you're already getting ketamine treatment through a psychiatrist your best bet would be to stick to that. That's an opportunity that, in my experience, is not readily available to individuals seeking it as an alternative to SSRIs, SNRIs, and other typically prescribed medications. I think the best course of action for the time being would be to stick to a professional treatment and avoid potentially abusing a substance or otherwise disturbing the results.

 

[Foreigner]

I'm kind of in the same boat. Multiple trials and failures with SSRIs, SNRI's etc. I'm getting a ketamine treatment through my psychiatirst but it ain't cheap...$300. That and it's a pretty stiff dose: about 50 mg in an IV drip over the course of an hour. I like your idea of small doses spread out better.

Wow... where in the world do you live that your psychiatrist can give you IV ketamine???

I don't have access to ketamine but may be able to get MXE through the research chemical route. Thoughts?

Hard to say. There are mixed reports. MXE lasts a lot longer, can be stronger, and produces a lot more heat in the body IIRC. I'm not totally convinced they are interchangeable.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Hey guys, check this out:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/scienc...y-lifts-depression-without-side-effects.shtml

 

[cashmunny]

Wow... where in the world do you live that your psychiatrist can give you IV ketamine???

I live in the western US. There are not a lot of doctors that do it but there are a few, at least in or around major metropolitan areas.

 

[DaveTripper]

I live in the western US. There are not a lot of doctors that do it but there are a few, at least in or around major metropolitan areas.

Man, you are lucky. I would LOVE to find a psychiatrist that is willing to try something new for depression. I've never tried SSRI's and the like because of all of the side-effects associated with them. I'd rather deal with my depression than go through possible side-effects. Did you have to try every other drug on the market before your psych let you try ketamine?

 

[cashmunny]

Man, you are lucky. I would LOVE to find a psychiatrist that is willing to try something new for depression. I've never tried SSRI's and the like because of all of the side-effects associated with them. I'd rather deal with my depression than go through possible side-effects. Did you have to try every other drug on the market before your psych let you try ketamine?

My doctor actually specializes in treatment resistant depression so he's willing to explore all options.

I made a list once and I've tried over 20 different medications. I usually had a good response to standard antidepressants for a short period of time (a week to several months) followed by the dreaded "poop out". It is very discouraging. Especially when you take a medication for a while and it's like the lights come on and I would start to feel pleasure in life again. And then slowly but surely it would fade away. And I'd be like "Nooooooooo!"

Actually there are some studies that suggest that SSRI's are no better than placebo.

 

[Bagseed]

I just wondered if anyone has used a similar regimen for anxiety and occasional panic attacks? Right now my anxiety is pretty strong and stress aggravates it. It's not like I have panic attacks all the time, but they happen and at the moment, low doses of alprazolam is what helps me best, but I don't want to become dependent on them.

I probably have the possibility to aquire some Ketamine in a few weeks, so might this be worth a shot?

 

[DrunkardsDream]

If you're depressed or have a mental illness, or are sad don't take ketamine or other drugs. You will only have yourself to blame when you do not get better and when your brain chemistry changes for the worse, or if you damage your internal organs from too much K or get addicted to it.

 

[RhythmSpring]

^ Hey man, that's one side of the coin. Drugs are a powerful, dangerous, but potentially extremely positive tools for repairing mental illness, or at least treating it. Ketamine, like any other drug, can be abused as you point out, but it can also be used wisely and to our advantage. Please hold your judgment.

 

[Bagseed]

I was looking up on the topic right now and found a study about Ketamine therapy in hospice patients suffering from anxiety and depression

Additionally, K.H. reported anxiety symptoms. Over the preceding month, he developed one to two panic attacks per day. Also, he described incessant worries, especially when attempting to fall asleep and upon awakening. He did not exhibit any cognitive impairments.
[...]
After informed consent and completion of validated scales for evaluating psychiatric symptoms and adverse events (Table 2), K.H., while at home, was given a dose of 32.5 mg of ketamine (0.5 mg/kg) orally. Subsequently, his HRSD17 dropped by 37% 60 minutes after ketamine dosing. By day 8, there was a 57% improvement. The depression subscale of the HADS had a 15% reduction in score at 60 minutes after ketamine dosing and a 45% reduction by day 8. The anxiety subscale of the HADS showed a more striking change with a 69% reduction in score just 60 minutes after the dose and an 85% reduction at day 8. Similarly to the first case, either improvements or essentially no changes were also found on scales of adverse effects or cognitive status.

source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3120058/

 

[psytaco]

^ very interesting.

Comorbidity of anxiety and depression Is very high. 60% of sufferers have both rather than one or the other. This says to me they may actually be the same illness (a particular subtype of depression/anxiety) or at the least share a similar neuropathology. If SSRIs are often effective for both depression and anxiety then it makes sense that ketamine may also be

 

[Foreigner]

If you're depressed or have a mental illness, or are sad don't take ketamine or other drugs. You will only have yourself to blame when you do not get better and when your brain chemistry changes for the worse, or if you damage your internal organs from too much K or get addicted to it.

Thanks for your contribution, but as was emphasized at the beginning of this thread and throughout it MANY times, this regimen is specificially beneficial to those with treatment resistant depression. Translation: for people who have tried everything else and nothing helps, this could be a good medicine.

There is also little evidence to support that ultra low doses (≤12mg) taken periodically causes damage to the internal organs, unless you have a study to back up your claim?

I just wondered if anyone has used a similar regimen for anxiety and occasional panic attacks? Right now my anxiety is pretty strong and stress aggravates it. It's not like I have panic attacks all the time, but they happen and at the moment, low doses of alprazolam is what helps me best, but I don't want to become dependent on them.

I probably have the possibility to aquire some Ketamine in a few weeks, so might this be worth a shot?

There is evidence that pro-longed stress has a relationship to depression via cortisol-induced damage to the NMDA system.

Anxiety and depression often come hand in hand, and operating as a waxing/waning relationship. When anxiety is low depression is higher; when depression is higher anxiety is lower. My unproven assumption is that they are both tied to the same dysfunctional neurobiology.

 

[Bagseed]

^yeah when my anxiety is strong, I hardly have time to be depressed, because I only worry if I might get a panic attack when I enter the underground train (or similar things). right now I'm on some Alprazolam and feel rather depressed but at least not anxious.