• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio

Evolution of drugs in plants

Perhaps, but something to which a plant devotes this much energy seems unlikely to fall into that catagory.

Well, what do you mean by devotion of energy? The plant doesn't produce large amounts of THC synthase which actually what performs the synthesis of THCA. Also, feral unselected cannabis is never extremely high in THC, with the exception of some of the wide leafed feral Hokkaido plants it's rarely more than 2-3% by weight. Also, in the cannabis genus, there's only three possible alleles for the locus responsible for THC production. The B0 null allele which leaves the THCA precursor, CBGA unconverted still codes for an enzyme it is just nonfunctional. So there is really little to no resources saved whether the DNA codes for the production of a predominantly CBDA, predominantly CBGA or predominantly THCA chemotype. Compared to the other options there's no extra demand on resource pools whether the plant is a THC producer or not.

You guys also seem to be missing that the plant does not actively create THC it creates the nonpsychoactive acid THCA which eventually decarboxylates into THC, mostly after the plant has died.
 
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maybe alkaloids like morphine etc. were created so species would be attracted and "spread" the seeds of the plant

Once again you guys are anthropomorphizing evolution. Traits do not evolve with a purpose or intent. You could say that a trait appeared that then facilitated dispersal of seed, but traits are not created with a purpose. They are very different things.
 
Well, what do you mean by devotion of energy? The plant doesn't produce large amounts of THC synthase which actually what performs the synthesis of THC. Also, feral unselected cannabis is never extremely high in THC, with the exception of some of the wide leafed feral Hokkaido plants it's rarely more than 2-3% by weight. Also, in the cannabis genus, there's only three possible alleles for the locus responsible for THC production. The B0 null allele which leaves the THC precursor, cannabigerol unconverted still codes for an enzyme it is just nonfunctional. So there is really little to no resources saved whether the DNA codes for the production of a predominantly CBD, predominantly CBG or predominantly THC chemotype. Compared to the other options there's no extra demand on resource pools whether the plant is a THC producer or not.

You guys also seem to be missing that the plant does not actively create THC it creates the nonpsychoactive acid THCA which eventually decarboxylates into THC, mostly after the plant has died.
Point taken, but that only broadens the question to one of why the plant produces CBD.
 
Point taken, but that only broadens the question to one of why the plant produces CBD.

I think what you're asking is why does the plant produce the enzyme geranylpyrophosphate:olivetolate geranyltransferase. CBD is not the precursor but an alternate branch from THC off of their shared precursor CBGA. In older research it was theorized that CBDA was the precursor since CBD is so easily converted into THC but that was incorrect. CBD synthase and THC synthase are either/or enzymes produced at the same locus by codominant alleles.

The easiest answer is CBGA, THCA and CBDA are all effective antibiotic and antiviral compounds much more than their decarboxylated counterparts. There's certainly a possibility of other benefits as well which I mentioned previously. It is very important for perennials to not pass on seeds infected with pathogens or insects. This gives perennials a huge reproductive advantage over annuals. Also, the one insect I know of that is solely devoted to cannabis, the hemp russet mite (not related to spider mites), is capable of spreading itself on cannabis seed and laying dormant for extended periods. Having these insecticidal compounds surrounding the seeds as in the case of cannabis can provide protection from such an insect. It's also shown that cannabis seeds which remain in the flowers remain viable for much longer periods than loose seeds under the same conditions.

Since high THC requires constant selective pressure by man, high THC plants (plants with >4% THC by weight) exist solely because humans find this compound desirable so I do not think that the desirability by man is a flawed point.

Coca is a similar subject, all of the species used by man for cocaine production evolved under cultivation, the wild ancestors of which are quite low in cocaine content and are completely separate species altogether. E. Coca E. Novogranatense and P somniferum are all what is called cultigen species, species who are taxonomically separate from their wild ancestors. Considering how relatively mild even strong coca leaf is, and the fact that their wild ancestors are about 5% as potent, it's actually quite astonishing that man ever noticed a stimulant effect to start breeding for and the degree of success if amazing.

The evolution of P. Somniferum is also thought to have occurred under interspecific hybridization and human selection, similar to what has been theorized about maize and wheat. Again the wild ancestors were extremely weak by comparison. Although morphine occurs in multiple Papaver species, it was man's selective breeding that made it such a viable medicine and recreational plant and brought the morphine content up beyond trace levels. For example, if one takes a high thebaine species like the oriental poppy and crosses is to P. somniferum's ability to produce morphine as it's principal alkaloid, (both species are capable of interspecific hybridization) one gets a poppy whose latex is 50% or more by weight morphine. A similar phenomena possibly happened in the original breeding of the opium poppy, a high thebaine high latex yielding poppy was crossed to a poppy which produced the necessary enzymes to efficiently convert thebaine into morphine and voila the creation of a medicinally viable source of morphine was born! It was then incrossed for many generation to increase capsule size latex and alkaloid content and you have the modern opium poppy.
 
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Once again you guys are anthropomorphizing evolution. Traits do not evolve with a purpose or intent. You could say that a trait appeared that then facilitated dispersal of seed, but traits are not created with a purpose. They are very different things.

I said this in a wrong way

I pretty much meant "maybe that's why morphine and other alkaloids stuck around"

of course I know that the poppy plant does not have a brain and is thinking "maybe I should make morphine"
 
Seems to make sense, at least for everything except thc. That certainly doesn't deter animals from eating pot plants, as I learned the hard way.

Why would animals be stopped from eating just MAOI's or DMT containing plants? Orally, they really don't do much alone even in big doses for humans as far as I know.
 
Why would animals be stopped from eating just MAOI's or DMT containing plants? Orally, they really don't do much alone even in big doses for humans as far as I know.
Yeah forgot that one, and probably many others. At the risk of hijacking my own thread I wonder how the DMT/MAOI combo was discovered by shamans? Pure chance I suppose.
 
Or even the combination of Coca and lime? Even if they were both discovered by chance to go back retrace exactly what triggered a psychedelic experience when two plants were involved seems quite a difficult task. It's something I've been fascinated by as well.
 
I boga was discovered by a boar or a lady hunting the boar. A wild boar was eating the iboga root when killed for its intestines for a stew that got rid of stomach parasites. The stew was consumed and the first Iboga experience was had.
 
Drug-containing plants may owe their dispersal and sucess precisely to humans. Containing a mood-changing drug is a good way of manipulating humans into growing the plant. It is a special case of the manipulation by a plant of an animal's nervous system.
 
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Well there are the classic cases of the appendix + tonsils in humans (two organs which are no longer needed but still exist, admittedly needed at some point during our evolution but not anymore). Yes they may well have evolved out of us at some point (I.e appendicitis + tonsilitis infections) but we have got to a stage in our evolution that we are the top predator and can reproduce before they occur.
I'd like to respond to this point by quoting myself:
Murphy said:
In my thinking, everything in nature has a purpose. There is absolutely nothing that doesn't serve some kind of 'meaningful' task. And if science doesn't know the purpose, it just wasn't discovered yet. The justification for this rule is directly derived from Darwin's theory of evolution (any creationist is requested to stay fucking quiet).
The only 2 exceptions from the above rule are IMO:

- 'Inventions' of nature that are comparably new and 'senseless', and were just not wiped out yet (everything needs some time to establish itself...or not). Mutations are the cause for constant changes in the genome (and therefore the appearance), and every new 'invention' has to be 'field-tested'...

- 'Inventions' of nature that were meaningful once, then lost their significance but were not completely wiped out yet. Example: The appendix in humans, or nipples with men. ;)
Both exceptions can be explained by the timeframe at which evolution takes place.



It also occurs to me that poppies and pot (not sure about coca or tobacco) make their drug toward the end of their lives, when they are least vunerable to being eaten by a grazing animal.
IIRC, the alkaloid-content in poppies is the highest just after the bloom ended, i.e. when the plant has just produced seeds, but which are not ripe, yet. Looks to me like a process intended to protect the seeds against feeding predators and alike.


Finally, something in this forum I know about! Well Murphy although I tend to agree with you, if you believe in Darwinian evolution, and I'm pretty sure you do, none of these things were created with a purpose per se as mutation is generally is not thought of as having "intent".
Yes yes, I totally agree. The usual confusion with the term "purpose" is mainly a semantic one. Of course do mutations happen randomly. Which purpose they fulfill - if any at all, usually turns out far later. It's a trial-and-error process.


Peace! - Murphy
 
Putting energy into making alkaloids, THC etc would not have continued unless it conferred something that made survival to the state of reproduction more likely. That's simple Darwininan evolution. Survival of the fittest is just that. Anything that uss vital resources but gives no advantage would disappear from the gene pool, so alkaloids must confer some advantage to the plants in question. Whether we correctly understand what that advantage is is a moot point.

If you want examples, read 'the selfish gene' or look at Lovelocks Daisyworld models


IIRC, the alkaloid-content in poppies is the highest just after the bloom ended, i.e. when the plant has just produced seeds, but which are not ripe, yet. Looks to me like a process intended to protect the seeds against feeding predators and alike.

As far as cannabinoids go, the absorb in the UV spectrum, so large amounts near the end of the plant's life is to protect the seeds from becoming unviable due to UV absorption buggering their DNA. Serendipity has a big role in the incorporation of a genetic mutation within a species
 
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An undercurrent of death in this thread:

The plant does not actively create THC it creates the nonpsychoactive acid THCA which eventually decarboxylates into THC, mostly after the plant has died.

It also occurs to me that poppies and pot (not sure about coca or tobacco) make their drug toward the end of their lives...

I recall reading in one of Jonathan Ott's works that as the cacti was near death (dehydrated, injured, etc.) it would increase mescaline content.
 
It's very reassuring that no one has posted anti-evolutionary hatred in this thread so far, rather we are just discussing the finer details, am impressed - go bluelight! This is a good thread :D
 
Putting energy into making alkaloids, THC etc would not have continued unless it conferred something that made survival to the state of reproduction more likely. That's simple Darwininan evolution. Survival of the fittest is just that. Anything that uss vital resources but gives no advantage would disappear from the gene pool, so alkaloids must confer some advantage to the plants in question. Whether we correctly understand what that advantage is is a moot point.

If you want examples, read 'the selfish gene' or look at Lovelocks Daisyworld models




As far as cannabinoids go, the absorb in the UV spectrum, so large amounts near the end of the plant's life is to protect the seeds from becoming unviable due to UV absorption buggering their DNA. Serendipity has a big role in the incorporation of a genetic mutation within a species


With all due respect fastandbulbous, I don't buy this. I have yet to find UV absorption information of the cannabinolic acids before decarboxylations, especially compared to other components of cannabis resin. First off, I'd be extremely surprised if wild cattle fodder plants from switzerland would have any loss in seed viability due to UV exposure when transplanted to the tropics or a high UV area. I really wish it were true because it would give us an easy technique to apply selective pressure for increased cannabinoid content without needing to use a gc/ms. Although I've never done experimentation on the subject of UV exposure and cannabinoid content specifically on seed viability, I have experimented with cannabinoid protection of plant tissue against UV exposure and found no correlation between plant damage and cannabinoid content. My colleague Dave Watson of Hortapharm has conducted similar experiments with respect to whether UV exposure increases THC content over one or more generations. Again, he found no correlation. The production of cannabinoids and resin is not localized to the portion of the flower which is exposed to UV, in fact there's more weight of resin on the interior of the inflorescence where the flowers are pale green to white colored due to a lack of light exposure than on the exterior where all of the light is received. The timing of cannabinoid production is not in sync with the period when the seed is most vulnerable to UV exposure. It peaks out after the shell of the seed has fully developed. Also, wild cannabis plants with no history of domestication/selective breeding disperse their seeds from the flowers upon maturity. The trait most are familiar with where the seeds are retained in the resinous flowers occurred after domestication. Also, the period of theoretical protection of UV exposure is quite brief when compared to the life of the seed before it germinates. Also, male plants invariably possess a row of glandular trichomes on the back of the anther. I've grown wild low THC plants from all over the world and without fail they always have that row of glandular trichomes on the back of the anther. One would think that if it was solely a seed protection and UV thing, glandular trichomes would strictly appear on females.

Almost the entirety of the rare and unusual cannabinoids which have been discovered in the cannabis genus have been discovered in non-drug populations this could imply that the plant in its natural state is moving away from THC production.

The theory you're referring to with regard to UV and cannabinoids was based on some unlikely to be true historical references in various letters and diaries and studies done by the likes of E. Small which found plants in high UV areas to be more psychoactive. It's an old theory which noone that works in this field actually believes anymore. The flaw with this research was found to be that he didn't compare strictly wild or feral plants. His data was skewed because he was comparing plants from high UV areas which were selectively bred for high THC to plants in places like western europe which were feral or fiber cultivars. If he did it this way, he would have found that cannabinoid levels are roughly the same no matter what the UV levels of the area where the plant is from.

On the other hand, as I said before, THCA is antibiotic and antiviral and is a much more down to earth theory about function of this class of compounds. The timing also fits as well, the cannabinoids reach peak concentration when the flowers have started to senesce in fully pollinated plants bringing triggering mold problems. This is also when the climate in the region where cannabis is though to have evolved has cooled off and in some of the suggested regions for the species origins has also become more damp. With UV on the other hand, the earliest stages of seed development which is the closest to the summer solstice and it's accompanying high UV levels, there's little development of resin glands to be found. Unfortunately, experimentation employing exposure to pathogens as a means to increase cannabinoid content is not likely to prove this without implementing very large populations over large periods of time due to the plants having a high number of genetically controlled tools to deal with pathogen problems, including both structural and chemical traits.


What you are saying about traits disappearing is an extreme oversimplification. As I'm sure you know, traits do not just immediately disappear once they no longer help and the level of detriment or advantage determines the selective pressure and speed with which the trait disappears. In this case, talking about THC synthase, we're talking about very small demands on resources, with no alternate genes at the specific locus which have less of a demand on resources. The key here is 'anything that uses vital resources' VERSUS THE ALTERNATIVES. If the current alternatives, even if they're null genes that still code for an enzyme, albeit a nonfunctional one, then there's no decrease in demand upon resources because there's still an enzyme being produced and the gene requires the necessary mutations to become a totally unused genetic code.

Phenotypic traits themselves do not necessarily have to bring a benefit to be selected for. The gene which produces a given detrimental trait may also bring a trait that is so useful that there is a net gain in desirability. There's also quantitative phenomena where a gene which seems nonfunctional or detrimental needs to be present for another gene to function properly. Then there's the subject of gene linkage. Although it is not incorrect to say that traits which demand valuable resources but pose no benefit probably indeed EVENTUALLY leave, this can take massive periods of time especially if they don't bring a statistically significant disadvantage, for even the most simple of genes depending upon how the genome is structured and whether or not a mutation occurs at the right place in the genetic code at the right time. Also, not all resources are valuable. Some regions have certain soil nutrients in overabundance. Sometimes having a gene which seems nonbeneficial can draw on a resource pool which causes a trait which shares the same resource pool to express in a manner which is beneficial, but given an decrease in other demands on that resource pool the gene becomes detrimental, again it is not the expressed phenotype of the gene which helps the species but the underlying mechanics. In practically all mammals and flowering plants you can find evidence of nonfunctional vestigiality. Genetic code itself is not efficient like a well written segment of code written by a resourceful computer programmer, it is filled with vestigial code that does absolutely nothing. in most organisms genetic code has a high percentage of vestigiality. I tend to disagree with dawkins on this to some extent, who seems to imply that all genetic code would tend to evolve to be less wasteful and more eloquent. I believe that all of the nonfunctional code and inefficiently written genes increase evolutionary potential. A computer program which is written eloquently and efficiently is likely to lose all functionality should a transcription error (mutation) occur. however, an inefficiently written piece of software is much more likely to retain or gain a new different functionality should a transcription error occur. Thus vestigiality increases evolutionary potential.


Also, when you're talking about an enzyme like THC synthase which really doesn't employ a huge enough amount of energy to put an individual at a statistically significant level of disadvantage against no enzyme at all there's little evolutionary pressure to remove a gene. I'm sure you can find many instances of vestigial enzymes which perform new but albeit less than beneficial functions. Also, not all resources are vital. For example, some regions have soils with an overabundance of certain nutrients. As I said before, B locus does not have any alternative alleles which use less energy than the Bt allele, of course this is after the synthesis of CBGA, a cannabinoid.

Just as maize evolved under cultivation with it's wild ancestors being simple grass plants with a single mutation bringing about the large corn cob we know today that was then selected for, it is entirely possible that the Bt allele which allows cannabis to produce appreciable quantities of THC could have also evolved under cultivation. The cannabis plant is though to have first been cultivated as a food and fiber source, so it is not a huge stretch to think that this very simple mutation could have occurred in a population that was being cultivated and propagated by man. That said, there is one evolutionary advantage of the Bt allele over the Bd allele and that is in plants which are otherwise genetically identical, homozygous Bt plants and heterozygous Bd/Bt plants have a tendency to produce higher cannabinoid levels than homozygous Bd plants. The mechanism of this is not fully understood, at least not by me. It may be that CBDA synthase in some way interferes with GOT, the enzyme which synthesizes CBGA. All of this would be totally separate from the fact that homozygous Bt plants tend to occur in populations which have been already selected for drug content and is in reference to all other things being equal, i.e plants from the same population that contains both Bd and Bt alleles.
 
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One would think that if it was solely a seed protection and UV thing, glandular trichomes would strictly appear on females.

And nipples would only appear on female mammals if that were the case. Genetic changes that produce vestigial structures aren't going to get phased out very quickly

I remember a lecture at uni where it was stated that temp was the main influence (after genetics of course) on the levels of THC in a cannabis plant and temp has a correlation with how much light gets through to the ground in any particular area. UV isn't going to kill seeds, just induce more mutations due to the conversion of adjacent thiamine bases into cytosine (or is itr the other way around? my molecular genetics are very rusty)
 
Well, I don't have to tell you that nipples are not glandular trichomes. All staminate cannabis plants have glandular trichomes on the back of the anther but not all mammalian males have nipples. Nipples are completely necessary in females for the resulting generation to have a chance at survival and does not have the same level of variance in quantity as glandular trichomes.

I'm not sure what to say about the effect of temperature on cannabinoid content and I don't know what study you're referring to but I'd assume that if they said temperature was the factor then hopefully the study had a control group where other factors were kept constant. I have seen studies that say temperature increases the ratio of propyl cannabinoids to pentyl, and maybe this is what you're remembering but never one that has said that increase in temperature conveys an increase in cannabinoid production. Sure there's an optimum temperature range for the plant's health and the production of cannabinoids, and if the ambient temperature is below this optimum range an increase would probably help, but that's true for all plants. One could say a decrease in temperature increases cannabinoid production if the control group was being grown at a ridiculously high temperature. UV and temperature are obviously not tied together. For example, an increase in altitude generally increases UV but decreases temperature

In your previous post you said before that UV causes seeds to be unviable and perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant by "unviable". Normally when talking about seed non-viable means unable to germinate. Perhaps I'm wrong but I would guess that mutagenic effect on developing seeds should be able to be roughly measured by a decrease in seed viability and testing seed viability from parents originating in a low UV climate then grown and bred in a high UV climate would still be an effective experiment.
 
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