Even low doses of Ecstasy can lead to language-related memory loss

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Me fail English? That's unpossible!
 
motorcyclist said:
I don't find it hard to believe. I've been using E for 4 years (using once every 4-8 weeks), and I have found myself numerous times searching my brain for the correct word I want to use. I never had that issue until I started using E, and when it occurs it is not some obscure word, it is always some easy everyday word that just seems to escape me.
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Same here. I also use the wrong words for certain things, and sometimes start my sentence in the wrong order, then I have to rephrase it.

I'm only 19 so I don't think it's because of your age.

And if I had to guess, 95% of the times I took ecstasy it was MDMA, 5% was MDMA with speed(eurospeed), MDA or weird stuff like MDE, mCPP.
 
While there is definitely some memory effect from taking e,
There is a major flaw in their experiment - that is the socioeconomic background of the people who were more likely to be interested in taking ecstacy, and as such, the kind of life they would have led over those next 3 years being less 'intellectual' than someone that say, went to college, worked in a very intellectual area, etc.

Intelligence tests dont take into account whether someone is going to be maintaining their mind's strength in the coming years.

Also as has been mentioned - drug purity
 
Kalash said:
ECSTASY USERS!!!
That's NOT mdma ;)

And it IS a side effect - but you're ignoring important bits...

Like... how long after they took the last pill were the tests done?

Effects can last from 4-6 weeks AFTER the last pill is taken (in moderate doses) for the blood flow in the brain to return to normal.

If the follow-up appointment was done in this time period there WOULD be discrepancies.

I'll agree with you - it's a side effect of ecstasy...

But they didn't even confirm what these kids were taking was MDMA.
Your statements need a little revision... but yeah... mostly I agree.
(I'm just being anal. Can't help it though.)
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Youre right. I agree with everything youve said, and I admit (as i said in my original post) I did not (and still havnt) read the article yet, so I did miss a lot of points. But yeah, from what Im gathering now is that it is a side effect amongst "ecstacy" users, and yes I do know there is a difference. The thing it seems like a lot of people are assuming though is that MDMA is a harmless chemical. I dont know with certainty that it is NOT a harmless chemical, but Im pretty sure that we can all safely say that it isnt, and if that is the case (it is not a harmless substance) then a side effect like language/memory disfunction isnt so unreasonable.

But, without further more in-depth studies, none of us will be able to know for sure, so for now all I can go by is my own personal experience.
 
IForgett said:
Youre right. I agree with everything youve said, and I admit (as i said in my original post) I did not (and still havnt) read the article yet, so I did miss a lot of points. But yeah, from what Im gathering now is that it is a side effect amongst "ecstacy" users, and yes I do know there is a difference. The thing it seems like a lot of people are assuming though is that MDMA is a harmless chemical. I dont know with certainty that it is NOT a harmless chemical, but Im pretty sure that we can all safely say that it isnt, and if that is the case (it is not a harmless substance) then a side effect like language/memory disfunction isnt so unreasonable.

But, without further more in-depth studies, none of us will be able to know for sure, so for now all I can go by is my own personal experience.
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Thing is, you'll rarely have an experience with pure MDMA.
You can thank the drug laws for that.

And the lack of research.
Irony...
The laws prevent gaining the knowledge needed to repeal the laws... 8)
 
IForgett said:
I dont even have to read the article to agree with it.

I had terrible issues with language related memory when abusing ecstacy. Id either say a different word instead of the one I had intended to use in a sentence or forget the names of things completely and sometimes even stop mid sentence because I forgot what I was saying.

Its definitley an issue a lot of MDMA users experience when using frequently, and is a very real occurance that cant really be argued with. I mean yeah, you can say not everyone experiences it and not everyone is guaranteed to have it happen to them when using MDMA, but its a side effect none the less.
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Same here. We're really only talking about a potential side-effect here. Just because you haven't experienced this side-effect doesn't mean that some people don't. Do you experience all the side effects of Benadryl or Viagra or Concerta? Probably not. But each of those have potential side effects. Just because you don't experience them doesn't mean the FDA is lying.
 
I'd certainly agree that it's likely E affects language skills to some degree. OK, this is all anecdotal but I know three people who have been doing E 2-5 times a month for three years now. Of these three (one being SWIM) two have experienced fairly pronounced language problems at one time or another.

In particular, about two years ago swim had the "tip of the tongue" syndrome regularly, especially the 72 hours after E use. Swim worked on Sunday evenings (after dropping on Saturday night) in a call-centre. On average about once per call swim would stop in the middle of a sentence when he realised that although he knew what he wanted to say, the word just wasn't there. He would have to describe the concept to the person and they would suggest things which usually was the right one (these weren't very complex words). It would also happen in the week, but less frequently.

Anyway, swim noticed that the problem simply went away after a while. No cutback in E, an increase in other drugs - the only difference was alcohol use dropped right off (he was used to drinking quite heavily before dropping, but now doesn't bother). He also now almost never experiences midweek blues, whereas in the early days they were common (and harsh). This might be linked to increase amphetamine (and nootropic) usage however.

The other one, a friend of mine, still seems to have the same problem. He still drinks, and he does do quite a lot of nitrous (something swim doesn't do) but otherwise their drug habits are vaguely similar (swim does a lot more amphetamines though). The language issues are worse for my friend, on one ocassion he actually forgot the word for "spoon" and had to describe the object for someone to tell him the word.

So yeah...the notion put forward seems very feasibe, although everyone's hit differently. Most side-effects do seem to fade quite quickly when people cease E usage, and the usual harm-reduction strategies (good night sleep after, 5HTP, vitamin supplements, hydration, etc, etc) do seem to work wonders.

The most powerful way to win arguments is by being reasonable. One of the reasons the anti-drugs media is such a joke (even amongst some who don't do drugs) is their message is so absurd, so over-the-top - so plain unreasonable. We (people who are pro-freedom) need to accept and admit that drugs can produce undesirable effects in some cases - including damage to health which we are very interested in researching / learning more about. If we just give blanket denials then we will seem as ridiculous as those who push the "E regularly kills instantly" / "most drugs have rat poison in" / "you can get addicted from one joint" stuff.
 
well I dont know about you guys, but almost every pill I ever took, i was positive it had mdma in it, and basically the only adultered pills were a few meth bombs here and there.

I have friends that have each taken 1000+ pills and have noticable speaking problems. stuttering, slurring, forgetting words. I myself notice a difference, but its not enough to tell. I took way less than them though
 
We need more studies like this, knowledge is power. Has anyone got access to the full article? I only read the abstract but it looked like a quite a well designed study. I would like to know how they adjusted their effects for the effects of other drugs and how many people in each group were polydrug users. Most importantly what was the average time between useage in the ecstasy group, and how long (on average) was there between last useage and the follow up examination. If it was a week or less it wouldn't surprise me but if statistically significant differences are present months after useage, with only occaisional useage..........hmm something to think hard about.
 
bowdenta said:
"Some recovery of serotonin neurons was apparent in the brains of the monkeys given MDMA 6 to 7 years previously," says Dr. Ricaurte, "but this recovery occurred only in certain regions, and was not always complete. Other brain regions showed no evidence of recovery whatsoever."

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cach...dma&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a
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Is that not the infamous Ricaurte study that was discredited not only because it used methamphetamine and not MDMA?
 
A lot of animal studies are hard to interpret because doses are used which are much higher than recreational use, it's not street ecstasy (which is what people take) and people have different brains to animals, and metabolise drugs differently. Sure, we are close to apes but not that close.

That's why this study is so interesting because it uses real street drugs and real people. Still I would love to know how long after most recent use that the follow up was. This could give us an idea just how long it does take for the brain to go back to normal, if it ever does.

I'll see if I can get the full article tomorrow. If I can I'll post it here.
 
bowdenta said:
"Some recovery of serotonin neurons was apparent in the brains of the monkeys given MDMA 6 to 7 years previously," says Dr. Ricaurte, "but this recovery occurred only in certain regions, and was not always complete. Other brain regions showed no evidence of recovery whatsoever."

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cach...dma&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a
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My point was there is no research using actual humans. Anything less is completely inconclusive. We frankly don't know if it takes 1 month, 1 year, 10 years, or never... Without proper long term studies, there is no way of knowing if/what damage is done and whether it can be reversed.
 
yellowfrog said:
A lot of animal studies are hard to interpret because doses are used which are much higher than recreational use, it's not street ecstasy (which is what people take) and people have different brains to animals, and metabolise drugs differently. Sure, we are close to apes but not that close.

That's why this study is so interesting because it uses real street drugs and real people. Still I would love to know how long after most recent use that the follow up was. This could give us an idea just how long it does take for the brain to go back to normal, if it ever does.

I'll see if I can get the full article tomorrow. If I can I'll post it here.
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Evaluation of the study by MAPS:

http://www.maps.org/sys/nq.pl?id=1311&fmt=page

http://www.maps.org/sys/nq.pl?id=1346&fmt=page
 
Studies concluding that E ruins your brains in some way or other appear every two weeks at least. If only 20% of those studies were true millions of E users should be brain dead by now.

They've got to keep churning out those studies! They have a war-on-drugs to win, remember?
 
Broshious said:
Is that not the infamous Ricaurte study that was discredited not only because it used methamphetamine and not MDMA?
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same ricaurte

different study

heres the findings of a summary of case reviews

METHODS: We used Medline to view all available publications on 'ecstasy' or 'MDMA'. All available studies dealing with ecstasy users entered this analysis. FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS: Despite large methodological problems the bulk of evidence suggests residual alterations of serotonergic transmission in MDMA users, although at least partial restitution may occur after long-term abstinence. However, functional sequelae may persist even after longer periods of abstinence. To date, the most consistent findings associate subtle cognitive, particularly memory, impairments with heavy ecstasy use. However, the evidence cannot be considered definite and the issues of possible pre-existing traits or the effects of polydrug use are not resolved.

in other words most studies say mdma causes some loss of function
but you regain some of the functions with a long absence
 
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