Euphorigenic, entactogenic, non-toxic, non-hallucinogenic tryptamine(s)?

[shibireru]

The list of tryptamines and phenylethylamines is just a bit long for me. I don't want to have sift through that to find what I want. And since there isn't a great deal of data on many of them, I probably wouldn't find the information I'm seeking even if I weren't a lazy asshole.

So I come to you experienced smarty pants.

Which tryptamine or phenylethylamine intensifies emotion and euphoria to the greatest extent, while producing very limited if not non-existent hallucinations and minimal neurotoxicity (both directly and in terms of metabolic products). And when I say "neurotoxicity" I mean the works: curling back/permanent dysfunctional deformation of 5-HT receptors, apoptosis, oxidative stress, blah...

I ask this question because tonight I chewed some fentanyl patches, took quite a bit of clonidine, ingested at least 15-20 mg of d-ampethamine, threw back about 100 mg of 5-HTP + a B-complex, and topped it all off with some clonazepam and all I got was a shitty body high. I want to find beauty in things again. I want to enjoy listening to music and looking at artwork. I am tired of feeling so emotionally uni-dimensional and empty. I want to feel the way I did when I was younger, when my mind imbued everything around me, everything I heard and saw, with the most intense and interesting forms of emotional colouring. Emotions then seemed to possess greater variety than tastes and smells. I see the world now as shades of gray and in objective, dispassionate, and scientific terms, finding pleasure in virtually nothing. I think my problem may involve Serotonin receptors and the pattern of their activation and so I turn to serotonergics (preferably legal).

/What about mirtazapine + buspirone + 5-HTP ? Would that be a winning combination?
//Oh, is epigallocatechin gallate an effective peripheral aromatic l-amino acid decarboxylase inhibitor as I have heard?

 

[Vanadium]

probably N-monoalkylated tryptamines. Shulgin said their effect are GHB-like (no hallucination).

I know someone who is working on the synthesis of NSBT and NTBT. I'll try theses in a few month.

 

[morphiquet]

i hope you know that chewing fent-patches is nothing more than pure wasting as fentanyl is absolutely not water-soluble (that is, in your saliva).

thus (excluding the vitamins here), you were on clonidine , amphetamine and clonazepam. not exactly what i would eat if i sought intense and euphoric feelings.

btw, better don't combine mirtazapine with buspirone, they're both alpha2 (adrenergic)-antagonists (ie the opposite of clonidine)

edit: what is NSBT and NTBT?

 

[shibireru]

i hope you know that chewing fent-patches is nothing more than pure wasting as fentanyl is absolutely not water-soluble (that is, in your saliva).

It seems to be an even greater waste to apply them to my skin since the ones I was prescribed are so incredibly underpowered. What do you recommend I do? Cut them into strips, soak them in pure isopropyl alcohol, let it evaporate on aluminum foil, and then vaporize the fentanyl residue?

BTW, if the fentanyl is able to be absorbed through the skin of my chest and back, then why not through my cheek? I certainly seemed to be noticing its effects, although because I aspire to rationality, I must admit that it could have been the placebo effect. It wasn't very euphoric the way other opioids have been for me: it's effects were mainly sedation, confusion, and a pleasant feeling in my body, particularly extremities.

thus (excluding the vitamins here), you were on clonidine , amphetamine and clonazepam. not exactly what i would eat if i sought intense and euphoric feelings.

I know clonidine isn't euphorigenic, and has in fact a depressant effect in many people, but because I have constantly elevated epinephrine/norepinephrine levels I can't tolerate a single milligram of amphetamine without it. Even with the clonidine the amphetamine brought my resting heart rate up to 130 bpm.

btw, better don't combine mirtazapine with buspirone, they're both alpha2 (adrenergic)-antagonists (ie the opposite of clonidine)

Mirtazapine antagonizes many of the 5-HT receptors one should like to, and Buspirone agonizes 5-HT1A which has significant anti-depressant effects. It might be a good idea to combine the mirtazapine and buspirone with some propranolol and doxazosin or labetalol alone. What do you think? That could produce the intensification and multiplication of my emotions that I have sought for so long without sympathomimetic ugliness.

 

[shibireru]

probably N-monoalkylated tryptamines. Shulgin said their effect are GHB-like (no hallucination).

I know someone who is working on the synthesis of NSBT and NTBT. I'll try theses in a few month.

Thank you, Vanadium.

 

[Jamshyd]

When will this enzyme-manipulation fashion trend ever go away? It is so fucking stupid, to be honest.

 

[shibireru]

When will this enzyme-manipulation fashion trend ever go away? It is so fucking stupid, to be honest.

Zah?

edit: Really. I don't know what you mean. It's hard for me to fathom that you could find a psychoactive substance that wouldn't manipulate enzymes at least indirectly. None of the substances which I reported having taken or which I expressed a desire to take acts directly on any enzymes as far as I am aware. Although, I am sure that all of them are substrates of various enzymes...

edit2: Err... wait amphetamine is an MAOI, right? Seriously, I am totally lost here. I know you don't like me at all, but I would appreciate an explanation of your remark, if you would be so kind.

edit3: Ooooh, okay. I am a bit slow right now. I've stayed up all night due to the amphetamine. You're talking about the epigallocatechin gallate. Well, it's better to have the 5-hydroxytryptophan convert to 5-hydroxytryptamine within the brain than peripherally, since there are serotonin receptors on and in the heart which produce nasty cardiotoxic effects when agonized.

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

OP: It sounds like you're just depressed. Get physically active, talk to a shrink, and stop doing so many drugs. You'll probably feel like a million bucks, and you won't have to take so many drugs to get there. And if you DO need drugs to be happy, might as well figure it out with a professional, 'cause cognitive therapy + drugs =

 

[macropsia]

5-meo-mipt sounds like it might be in the ballpark of what you have in mind.

 

[Tsukasa]

I know what you want, and I want it too. Here are my observations

Serotoninergics (particulary 5-HT reuptake inhibitors = no good. 5-HT actually anaesthizes emotions, making you an emotionally numb zombie, that doesn't smile, laugh, or express emotions very well. This may be helpful for people who experience mostly negative emotions, as a mood stabilizer, which also neutralizes positive ones. However, drugs that bind to 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A receptors like many empathogens and psychadelics, will cause a release of oxytocin, which leads to improved interpretation of emotions; increased empathy. You can also administer (IV or intranasally) oxytocin alone. Oxytocin helps autism and aspergers syndrome, because people with it have low oxytocin levels and thus can't interpret emotions or body language (without using their logic atleast).

Second thing, opioids = not good either. Once the warm stimulating euphoria starts wearing off it starts to get replaced with feelings of ennui, detachment, disinterest, dispassion, disregard, dullness, numbness, emotionlessness, lethargy, listlessness, apathy, peace, and people with autism/aspergers have high levels of endogenous opioids like endorphins helping to explain their lack of emphathy.

Third - prolactin = very bad. I don't know about drugs, but their are many things you can do that increase prolactin levels. Prolactin promotes satiety, temporarily. It decreases dopamine and testosterone activity (both are responsible for sexual desire). So after sex, meals, excercise, minor surgeries, during REM sleep and early morning, and high serotonin and thyroid hormone levels - prolactin levels tend to be high. Though it can promote satiety, people will still want pleasures eventually, just to feel "something".

So what does this mean? You want:

5-HT1A or OXT agonists. 5-HT2 receptors will generally be hallucinogenic/psychedelic. Emphathogens like MD(X)A's, bk-mbdb, methylone, dxm, and other serotonin releasers will probably do this best, or you can get oxytocin itself.

Low endogenous prolactin, 5-HT, and opioid levels - So the best time to have a positive highly emotional, spiritual experience is after a period of fasting and celibacy, and avoiding too much physical activity, just some yoga. Then theirs also sleep deprivation which is known to bring about spiritual experiences by itself.

Catecholamines - Excitatory neurotransmitters, especially dopamine, definately enhance feeling and emotion. Most phenethylamine and other psychedelics are partly dopaminergics, so you shouldn't have trouble finding one. Meditation would also naturally increase dopamine levels, and i've read many reports that it greatly potentiates psychadelics, so i would definately do that along with the fasting and celibacy in preperation for the experience.

Acetylcholine plays a role. I find after ingesting DMAE or tobacco I'm much more prone to goosebumps and they are longer lasting and and everywhere on my body, THC also happens to make them extremely intense. DMAE does this more than cigarettes I've noticed, I guess because it binds to the muscular nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (controls skin pore contraction), where nicotine doesn't touch. Cholinergics like DMAE and some other nootropics like piracetam will work. Cigarettes are alright if you're not a regular smoker. Menthols give a bonus dopamine release, because of it's stimulating aromatherapeutic properties.

 

[Tsukasa]

5-meo-mipt sounds like it might be in the ballpark of what you have in mind.

Werd, 5-MeO-mipt smoked might be just what he wants, IME it was pretty good for this purpose. It isn't very trippy, just a little fuzzy vision, and maybe intensified colors. It greatly enhances senses and opens your heart.

 

[Hammilton]

I had a chance to try NSBT in 2007. There was an RC vendor that used to have them, but, and I've no idea why, they were removed from their site within 2 months of ordering it. I got a 35mg sample that I plugged. It came on fairly quickly this way, but I wouldn't describe it as GHB like. It was something like ethanol and diazepam but my thoughts flowed quicker in a psychedelic sort of way. It didn't make me overly dizzy or physically sloppy at the doses I tried though. I didn't find it particularly euphoric either.

Looking at what shulgin has to say, 35mg is a rather low dose, but for a free sample, it was an interesting if short lived experience. Not one I'd seek out though. 4-HO-DIPT was way better, imho. I wouldn't describe it as hallucinogenic, but it wasn't really entactogenic either. It was euphoric and mentally stimulating in a psychedelic sort of way, but I had no visuals, and it only lasted 3.5-4 hours, but my sleep was disturbed for 8

 

[shibireru]

OP: It sounds like you're just depressed. Get physically active, talk to a shrink, and stop doing so many drugs. You'll probably feel like a million bucks, and you won't have to take so many drugs to get there. And if you DO need drugs to be happy, might as well figure it out with a professional, 'cause cognitive therapy + drugs =

So says one of ADD's most overzealous drug abusers.

I keed. I keed.

Much as I hate to admit it, exercise does help. I've been deferring that form of treatment for as long as possible; it really conciliates my impulsive and impatient personality to throw some fast-acting pills down my gullet.

Movin' n' stuff is hard!


Macropsia-

Thank you.


Tsukasa-

Firstly, thanks again for going to all this trouble.

Second thing, opioids = not good either. Once the warm stimulating euphoria starts wearing off it starts to get replaced with feelings of ennui, detachment, disinterest, dispassion, disregard, dullness, numbness, emotionlessness, Lethargy, listlessness, Apathy, Peace

It's interesting that you say that, because I just read the abstract of a study in which patients diagnosed with depersonalization disorder (whose symptomatology comprises apathy) were treated with naltrexone over a period of 6 weeks or so. The treatment was found to be very successful. I shouldn't have too much difficultly getting my doctor to give me an Rx for naltrexone.

As for the bit about prolactin: I have actually suspected that I was hyperprolactinaemic for some time - probably as a result of my long-term melatonin use. I can't stop taking melatonin, though, so I suppose I'll try my hand at getting a prescription for cabergoline or some other D2 agonist.

And I'll definitely be giving the pure oxytocin a shot. Sounds interesting. (I don't find fenugreek to work very well; it's just not a sufficiently potent secretagogue of oxytocin)

Hammilton-

Thanks for your input.

 

[Hammilton]

A shot of oxytocin is unlikely to be of much use. It won't raise your mood. It will help you give birth though...

 

[shibireru]

A shot of oxytocin is unlikely to be of much use. It won't raise your mood. It will help you give birth though...

But it is socializing and empathogenic, right? That's one thing which bothers me a great deal, that I have lost my ability to feel love and concern for others - especially my family and friends. I used to be a compassionate person, but lately I have found myself to be nearly sociopathic - almost completely indifferent to how my actions and words affect others (not oblivious as in Asperger's, but indifferent.)

So, that it helps women push their crotchfruit out of their stinkholes means oxytocin is a 5-HT7 agonist?

 

[Hammilton]

no, its not

 

[mad_scientist]

Yes the CNS effects of oxytocin might be socializing and empathogenic, but it has very poor blood brain barrier penetration when administered exogenously, so even iv or nasal spray don't work well, and produce lots of peripheral side effects.

The only reliable way to produce the oxytocinergic effects so far is by using other drugs that cause oxytocin release in the brain (MDMA etc), but a decent synthetic oxytocin agonist with improved BBB penetration will be released soon enough I imagine, the first non-peptide selective oxytocin receptor agonists were reported a couple years back so there are probably a number of different ligands available now.

 

[Tsukasa]

^ Yea, I forgot about those. I'm eager for when they get on the market. Hopefully they won't get scheduled. I'm curious if selective agonists (with BBB transporters of course) have any abuse potential.

 

[immad]

I'ld suggest a DPT or 5-MeO-DMT (snorted) trip from time to time + find something to be passionate about, a hobby, going on trips with friends or something.

And lots of sleep. Without enough sleep, I can relate to your feelings of detachment and desinterest.

 

[Jabberwocky]

^ I like this advice a lot

AMT sessions work too. I tried recently with a low dose mescaline session but it actually didn't work too well. AMT, DMT, DPT, 5-meo-DMT work real well at flicking on that anti-depressant quality (this is utilizing the drug for a peak experience, ie short lasting intense trip and then reaping the 'afterglow' effects for mood lift)

Some comments about other people's comments:

oxytocin is shit for mood or recreation. It made my eyes water and my vision blur and I crawled in bed and went to sleep.

don't kid yourself about 5-meo-mipt. Its an ego-crusher. It will have the OP curled in a ball crying out of his mind and self wandering what the fuck is going on.