EU Referendum Discussion: Well That Worked Out Well Didn't It

[Shambles]

I'm rather more undecided than I ever thought I would be. I was always broadly in favour of the EU - most of the legislation seems pretty decent (a damn sight better than our own stuff half the time ) and I generally saw it as being a useful brake on the more rabid elements of our right wing, more right wing, or extremely right wing standard voting options.

The way that Greece (amongst others but Greece got the most publicity - as an aside, good German documentary about aforementioned "others" (mostly focussed on Spain & Ireland) The Secret Bank Bailout is worth a watch) has been treated was a major eye-opener though. No fan of TTIP either. Mainly it's the bullyboy tactics, inflexibility and punishment of the poorest in society to pay off the debts created by the richest and the most corrupt that's put me firmly in the undecided camp.

Both campaigns have been abominably bad. Relentlessly negative on both sides and with so much blatant bullshit, fantasy and fairy tales that I frankly don't believe a word from either of them. That's pretty hard to achieve with only two options available but trust a load of politicians and businessfolk to achieve it. No help there then

 

[BigG]

Yes, but they are only law as long as we stay in the EU ..... Leaving will render them null and void. Once you're not a member of the gang anymore, you aren't protected by the "no hitting" rule.

Currency speculators are scum, pure and simple.

Dont mean to be pedantic and keep going on but European free trade areas are not dependent on being a member of the EU (as per the Scandinavian countries who benefit from it and arent in the EU).

Agree on the currency speculators though...

 

[BecomingJulie]

Dont mean to be pedantic and keep going on but European free trade areas are not dependent on being a member of the EU (as per the Scandinavian countries who benefit from it and arent in the EU).

Yes, BUT, we would be in the position of having to negotiate trade deals all over again, starting from scratch. With people who want to punish us.

Agree on the currency speculators though...

Aye. Removing their endorphin glands so they are in a permanent state of opioid withdrawal would be too good for the carpet-bagging bastards .....

 

[gannetsarewe]

Yes, BUT, we would be in the position of having to negotiate trade deals all over again, starting from scratch. With people who want to punish us.Aye. Removing their endorphin glands so they are in a permanent state of opioid withdrawal would be too good for the carpet-bagging bastards .....

Dont mean to be pedantic and keep going on but European free trade areas are not dependent on being a member of the EU (as per the Scandinavian countries who benefit from it and arent in the EU).

Agree on the currency speculators though...

Norway is the only Scandi country not in the EU, to be a member of EFTA they must obey all EU law without exception, pay the same contributions as full member states without having a say or vote in the EU.

 

[BigG]

Norway is the only Scandi country not in the EU, to be a member of the EFTA

Iceland and Lichtenstein?

they must obey all EU law without exception

Other than (among others) The Common Agricultural Policy, the Common Fisheries Policy, the European Court, Commission or Parliament, justice and home affairs and the Common Foreign and Security Policy.

Also incorrect regarding tthe contributions....refer to paragraph two in the article below...(taken from norway-eu.org)

"Norway’s financial contributions include funding to reduce disparities in Europe and contributions to the budget of EU programmes and agencies we participate in.

It is not possible to compare net payments between those of an EU Member State and those of a Non-Member state. However, Norway’s financial contributions related to our cooperation with the EU include the following:

The European Economic Area (EEA) Agreement includes a goal to reduce social and economic disparities in the European Economic Area. Thus, the EEA EFTA States Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway have contributed to European cohesion efforts through various financial mechanisms since the EEA Agreement entered into force in 1994."

 

[gannetsarewe]

Iceland and Lichtenstein?





Other than (among others) The Common Agricultural Policy, the Common Fisheries Policy, the European Court, Commission or Parliament, justice and home affairs and the Common Foreign and Security Policy.

Lichenstien and Iceland aren't in Scandinavia last time I looked anyways, sorry I meant Norway must obey EU trade and labour laws, I think they are subject to about a quarter of All EU law. They are involved in a Nentry debate this good few years.

 

[BigG]

Lichenstien and Iceland aren't in Scandinavia last time I looked anyways, sorry I meant Norway must obey EU trade and labour laws, I think they are subject to about a quarter of All EU law. They are involved in a Nentry debate this good few years.

Norway, Sweden, Denmark. Finland and Iceland make up Scandanavia..not Lichenstein (hence the question Mark)

 

[Shambles]

What really irks me about this whole thing is the fact that it all feels like a whole lot of no choice whatsoever.

We stay in. What happens? More of the same - and the way things have started to look is not at all pretty. With the promise of TTIP consolidating the status quo to an even greater degree that starts to look deeply concerning.

We leave. What happens? The remaining EU countries completely screw us financially as Julie mentions. As does America. And quite possibly a few others. There is clearly good reason the aforementioned status quo are going to such ridiculously outlandish means of trying to scare the shit out of the populace. It means it matters to them and thusly will not be allowed to happen. Certainly not pleasantly.

The out campaign are so deluded it's beyond ridiculous. The one and only saving grace they have is unrealistic idealism. Shame it's wrapped up in all that bullshit, racist UKIP bollocks. Seriously offputting. That and the fact they are seriously trying to convince people with utterly ridiculous claims. We will be fukked if we leave. In a very big way. The question is whether it is worth it all the same.

 

[BritishLad]

We should be out of the EU in my opinion. But I'm with Shambles no matter what the people want if it has been decided by the higher ups, we will remain in it anyway. Democracy? Sure...

 

[Sprout]

Few circumstances are more proficient at polarising the populous than continental membership. Facets of our engagement affect everything we do in some direct or convoluted way, it is incomprehensibly complicated and culturally intertwined enough to make martyrs, messiahs and monarchs of the margins of society.
My personal monkeysphere places the access to academic and educational institutions atop the pro list, and it is on such a podium I shall vote to remain in the European Union.

 

[vecktor]

the question is not in or out, as if you vote out Westminster and Brussels will ignore it anyway, rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic that is the EU behemoth, and tell you to vote again. look at what happened in Ireland over the Lisbon treaty, vote, wrong answe,r vote again, and you will continue to vote until you vote the right way. The beatings will continue until morale improves.

vote OOT to see how little difference voting really makes, if it made a difference it would be banned.

 

[Sprout]

"We stole from the penny jars of penniless pensioners, the poor, the disabled, the sickly, the frail and the nameless, faceless expendable fleshcogs to furnish our private lives with private luxuries, paid from public coffers to poorly regulated corporate tax-havens, until the whole country began cracking down to its core. Then we diverted any prying peasant pupils from our politicotyranny by blaming all our pitfalls on them bleedin' continentals and their Human Rights and Geneva Conventions and pretending for it to be an issue it is not, exploiting those it does not, with shadows cast over any benefits it has actually got".

~Conservative Civil Exploitation 102.
Cited by: Thatcher, Cameron...

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

I've never seen a BL poll where the Spade's mum option makes more sense.

The nutty right have hijacked Brexit. The mainstream are in control of Remain.

If you don't agree with any of the choices on offer (or are even not even competent enough to understand them for that matter) then DON'T VOTE.

Burn it down.

 

[spacejunk]

Burn it down.

Sensible advice, sir.

It seems to me that these campaigns are so rigged from the start that they generally achieve what the political/social architects in the Establishment intended from the beginning.

I could bore you with Australia's 1999 "Republic Referendum" and how people were tricked into remaining in the "Commonwealth" (such an absurd term) - but i won't.
Long story short, some freeloading old toff lass is still our head of state.

 

[Sprout]

Sensible advice, sir.

I am inclined to disagree. Over here in the non-Dante's Inferno inspired desert of dingoes and 1,000 hectare wildfires we are not as readily accepting of, nor as ambivalent towards, our infrastructure moonlighting as a giant bonfire....

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

My question is why people think the EU is going to simply implode at some point. The EU as a unit is almost 100% self sufficient, and as soon as energy independence is achieved the EU will be in a very good place. The land is fertile, there is plenty of water, plenty of energy soon, we know how to practice medicine and pharmacology, great industry, good tech, and there are tons of other emergency resources (brown coal).

Don't let the retarded markets scare you, if shit gets too bad we WILL take what is ours (potable water, healthy food, warm shelter, and a truly integrated society). Unless the gulf stream shuts down sometime soon, and causes the continent to freeze over the EU will soon only need to rely on its friends in the case of a military conflict.

What truly frightens me is the TTIP and the constant push for negative interest rates. What happens to the most important type of banks (consumer banks) for us average folk who want a savings account when the rates are negative? Why would anyone, especially pragmatic German or Brit, put money into a bank only to pull out less money in the end. Doesn't anyone see the problem with this? The consumer banks must take on more risk to meet prior obligations, and the vast majority will end up belly up.

The TTIP is another topic all together, and may be the I-beam that breaks the camel's back so to say.

 

[Sprout]

Why would anyone depreciate their entire existence by converting it to a few numbers and giving meaning to the meaningless digits by giving control of them away?
For the sake of not boring people half to death I'll put it briefly: value is ascribed to that which provides a tangible benefit to our lil' monkeysphere, water, shelter, food in the basic sense and cybernetic organisms to hunt and gather that which our Neo-Information Age has mastery over. A lump of steak, a car, an ampoule of Diamorphine, a bar of gold, wood, fucking anything aside from imaginary symbols in the hands of an entity mastering the societal marionette.

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

Why would anyone depreciate their entire existence by converting it to a few numbers and giving meaning to the meaningless digits by giving control of them away?
For the sake of not boring people half to death I'll put it briefly: value is ascribed to that which provides a tangible benefit to our lil' monkeysphere, water, shelter, food in the basic sense and cybernetic organisms to hunt and gather that which our Neo-Information Age has mastery over. A lump of steak, a car, an ampoule of Diamorphine, a bar of gold, wood, fucking anything aside from imaginary symbols in the hands of an entity mastering the societal marionette.

I wonder this too. I am of the opinion that the current form of the 'investment bank' should be illegal. They get the central banks to print them a ton of money, and then they start buying up shit that should belong to a much more diverse and numerous group of people. They have fucked with the numbers so hard by ever increasing the numerical amount of money, when in fact everything on this planet still has the same value. The problem is, is that these monetary values assigned to these valuables have been intentionally driven through the roof, so that average people don't even have close to enough capital to band together to purchase what should already belong to them as a collective occupying a space.

The problem is, is that we are so deep into this system that we have to start changing the laws. First the tax laws, and then start hunting in the tax havens. Before we can move back to numbers that the average person can comprehend and which have value there will need to be a massive shift of wealth towards the middle and lower classes.

I will leave this horribly frightening diagram here:

http://money.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization/

This diagram should make anyone who understands anything start to realize the obstacles we are facing. I hope the bankers who spawned this hideous state of being can come to a peaceful agreement with the citizens of the planet on how to bring this shit back down to earth. I'm pretty sure their opulent offices shouldn't be too hard to identify in the case that they start to agro on us.


Edit: As an aside, don't get neo-conned Britain, that is what this Brexit is all about. Together we are strong.

With the threat of Brexit Juncker has already publicly stated that the EU has gone too far, and that they must desist in going forward in areas which are better suited to individual sovereign nations. I hope that threats like the Brexit won't have to be made in the future to get the EU to do what is right, but there will most certainly have to be real ultimatums given to the European commission, council, parliament, and central bank. Those are the targets we should be collectively hitting in order to cause true change.

 

[Sprout]

It does seem pertinent to note that the faux-democratically elected representatives of European nations during times of economic crisis do have a slight habit of framing the exploitation of the meatsacs by their self-interested, slime ridden, shadowy societal subjugation as a matter of national and international identity and influence.
Blame those rich foreigners until the scum are willing to follow a fellow "countryman" towards austere suffering, divisory identification, and ultimately a life as painful as their death in the inevitable armed geopolitical conflict they are conscripted to die in...

I shan't be so foolish as to mention the name of a certain mid-20th century mustachioed genocidal maniac with charisma masking sociopathy...
Wait...

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

It does seem pertinent to note that the faux-democratically elected representatives of European nations during times of economic crisis do have a slight habit of framing the exploitation of the meatsacs by their self-interested, slime ridden, shadowy societal subjugation as a matter of national and international identity and influence.
Blame those rich foreigners until the scum are willing to follow a fellow "countryman" towards austere suffering, divisory identification, and ultimately a life as painful as their death in the inevitable armed geopolitical conflict they are conscripted to die in...

I shan't be so foolish as to mention the name of a certain mid-20th century mustachioed genocidal maniac with charisma masking sociopathy...
Wait...

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I think you are speaking out against nationalism? I agree it is very dangerous, and the average dude needs to realize he has much more in common with his brother across the channel than he does the manager of his bank.