EU Referendum Discussion: Well That Worked Out Well Didn't It

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

At the outset I was a remain. Scared of being alone scared of not knowing what may happen if we did exit. After weeks of listening and trying to substantiate my thoughts one way or another it becomes apparent no one knows and know one has an actually answer to give me.

So I all I can do is turn to my own personal experiences. I travel A LOT in Europe. I have done a great deal of business with Europe for over 20 years. I have experienced many cultures and views of what our European "family" think of us. Things that I have always found concerning are towards the way we are seen in Germany.

Firstly Germans want us in. The sole reasoning being they are stronger with us in. Therefore it is in their interests NOT our interest to remain. Effectively they are solely concerned for themselves.

However they are also the first to suggest whenever I meet them (and I don't generalise) that we are a stupid country who sold themselves for short term gain (moving out manufacture to then what was third world) and now we must pay the price by being part of their Europe. Germany never sold themselves out, the government and the EU readily backed their manufacturing and now they have a very stable base.

Dealing with Germans regularly what I also see is very little acceptance that we are of equal standing. This goes throughout the business sector. We are seen as a country of failing and poor manufacture that is easy pickings for the much larger German behemoths of industry to suck up and spit out. Germans buy German. They ridicule our buy it cheap from China mentality. Even in their building industry they ensure they use German produced / designed products.

When I go to exhibitions in Germany it is common for me to be blanked or to be asked are you a German company, often resulting in them walking on when it's a no, yes this does happen and it happens multiple times even in the same day. Over 20 years I have never successfully sold to a German company, I have always lost to German competition even when the offer was better and the product more relevant.

We may be lost in nostalgia but that nostalgia should be the catalyst. We can't go back we can only go forward but do we set our future potential with limits or with freedom to choose that future ourselves.

We did balls up in the late 80 - 00; we focused on short term gain. We were greedy and used cheap labour to reduce our manufacture cost. But the worm always turns and those business that did go to China had only brief happiness before they were ripped off.

We don't act and we remain we simply confirm to all Euro's that we capitulate to the plan set by Germany. Ultimately we are different we are an island nation. I don't want to be part of Germany's plans. I want to see our MPs finally start working for us and not for the banks and the super rich who are the ones who benefited and will continue to benefit from our Euro involvement.

I want to see how we generate our own plan where we can show the world that we are intelligent, creative and capable. I'm no longer scared. I would accept the challenge likely others would as well

 

[consumer]

The only point i can add to this debate is that it seems to me that these days it is corporations and the banking sector that pull all the strings no matter what country it is. American democracy is for sale to the highest bidder as is ours in Australia. Our govt sold us out by signing the TPP whose terms we are not allowed to even know about. Its secret but there is no way it benefits the average Australian. So to me its these secret trade deals that are heavily neo con in nature that are the issues for nations now. Sovereignty seems to be almost a thing of the past. I dont know if you guys should stay or should go but i would imagine you are better off staying in the EU as it surely gives you a better chance of getting better outcomes when these trade deals get done. I am no expert on any of this though.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

The only point i can add to this debate is that it seems to me that these days it is corporations and the banking sector that pull all the strings no matter what country it is. American democracy is for sale to the highest bidder as is ours in Australia. Our govt sold us out by signing the TPP whose terms we are not allowed to even know about. Its secret but there is no way it benefits the average Australian. So to me its these secret trade deals that are heavily neo con in nature that are the issues for nations now. Sovereignty seems to be almost a thing of the past. I dont know if you guys should stay or should go but i would imagine you are better off staying in the EU as it surely gives you a better chance of getting better outcomes when these trade deals get done. I am no expert on any of this though.

Trade deals are set by the EU. For example China Steel. We now see loss of our steel industry (admittedly lost a few years ago to Tata because we couldn't sell any to Europe because a trade deal had been done). It was in the interest of the "EU" so they can assure a cheap raw material cost. This is an industry very tightly regulated in the UK by safety and pollution control which has a minimum profit margin to make for the shareholder. Concerns the Chinese don't have. Unfair market condition - state owned and we now buy cheapest with the biggest impact on society but wtf its cheap.

You guys in OZ already go down the same road selling your mines to the Chinese. Oz made fortunes off the supply to China but when the market dips you guys all got scared and went the same silly road the Uk went.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Good luck on that 'politicians working for us and not for the banks and the super rich' Boa.

Brexit ain't gonna usher in socialism anytime soon. The campaign has been hijacked by right wing anti-immigrant nutters and that's what you'll get if Brexit wins.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

This is an industry very tightly regulated in the UK by safety and pollution control which has a minimum profit margin to make for the shareholder. .

Sorry, this is wishful thinking bollocks. I live just down the road from Port Talbot. Check out the average life expectancy age there. Sure China is a polluted shithole. You should see Port Talbot too.

 

[consumer]

Trade deals are set by the EU. For example China Steel. We now see loss of our steel industry (admittedly lost a few years ago to Tata because we couldn't sell any to Europe because a trade deal had been done). It was in the interest of the "EU" so they can assure a cheap raw material cost. This is an industry very tightly regulated in the UK by safety and pollution control which has a minimum profit margin to make for the shareholder. Concerns the Chinese don't have. Unfair market condition - state owned and we now buy cheapest with the biggest impact on society but wtf its cheap.

You guys in OZ already go down the same road selling your mines to the Chinese. Oz made fortunes off the supply to China but when the market dips you guys all got scared and went the same silly road the Uk went.

As i said our politicians sold us out. Do you seriously think yours wont too?

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

Totally agree and yes the whole debate has centred on the least important aspect.

But for the people who want to have fair and decent conditions for trade who are struggling in small to medium manufacturing business it's our only chance to try and make a stand.

We remain in the EU leaves us only with what the rich want - to make them richer. Let's face facts Cameron et al are human beings. They seek power and glory by the very nature of their job choice. They certainly don't work for the one vote. They work for the man who pays the campaign bills and operates the media.

Lol they've also got to think of their next job and that nice cushty desk in Brussels.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

@ SHM Mate I've spent the last 18 years travelling in China on business. You have no idea how bad it is, how poorly they treat the workers and how many deaths they don't report. Even just being in the same town results in coughing and blowing black shit out of your nose for days after the visit.

Although I should point out I only ever sell to the Chinese and don't buy nor consider using their labour to make for me. Stood by that principle for 18 years and it did reward in the end.

 

[consumer]

And Australia didn't do as well as we should out of the minerals boom. Most mining companies get govt subsidies and pay no tax. It made a lot of mining magnates billions though. When one Govt actually tried to tax the mining companies with a mining tax they got lobbied so hard they basically let the miners write the legislation resulting in them once again paying no tax. The system serves the system not the people.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

@ SHM Mate I've spent the last 18 years travelling in China on business. You have no idea how bad it is, how poorly they treat the workers and how many deaths they don't report. Even just being in the same town results in coughing and blowing black shit out of your nose for days after the visit.

I don't have your 18 years experience but I do have an idea, sure, China is number 1. Which is why I said,

Sure China is a polluted shithole.

But I cordially invite you to Port Talbot one day. Indeed, the valleys in general. Britain's wealth built from the industrial revolution and these people who slaved for it in the valleys barely saw a penny. Its not even a metaphor for wealth discrepancy. It's literally there in black and white. Mainly black. And grey. And early death. To this day.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

I was in Port Talbot 4 weeks ago. 2 days of travelling round the failing industrial estates of S. Wales - Tredegar Cwmbran Cardiff Merthy Abergavenny Talbot etc.

Visited 8 small - medium business's over 2 days, one I was looking to rescue by acquisition. I do around 30k a year UK visit most places where there is an industrial with manufacturing (so forget London). I see at least 200 Uk companies yearly in the manufacture sector. I see a hell of a lot more real life than any politician. One thing I can tell you most clients will say if the UK public backed UK produced we would have a sustainable manufacture base. Just like that small town did (think that was Wales as well) which came together to fight the big chains, highlight offshore tax dodges and show how if the rules were the same we could stand a chance to fight the power.

Last year I did a total of 80+ flights, around 50 % Europe. The rest India or Asia. I can assure you SHM it maybe a shithole to you but Port Talbot is very pleasant compared to Tangshan.

 

[BecomingJulie]

[Steel] is an industry very tightly regulated in the UK by safety and pollution control which has a minimum profit margin to make for the shareholder. Concerns the Chinese don't have. Unfair market condition - state owned and we now buy cheapest with the biggest impact on society but wtf its cheap.

See, that's the thing right there.

We have laws in Europe to protect workers from harm, and people who live in the same neighbourhoods as industrial facilities from pollution.

If those standards to which we hold European manufacturers really meant anything, we would refuse to import goods manufactured under conditions which would not be acceptable in Europe.

Otherwise, we are saying, It's wrong to do this to Europeans, but it's perfectly acceptable to do it to Chinese. Which sounds very racist indeed.

Now, obviously we can't just simply stop importing Chinese goods like that. People do depend on these jobs for their lives, in spite of the dire conditions, and will suffer worse if we do not act responsibly. It will require bilateral commitment to a long-term programme of reforms.

I don't see how anybody except the USA could be against not exporting misery. I also think that a trading bloc such as the EU has a better chance of realising change than one tiny country outside the EU and in tbe USA's pockets.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

Totally agree Julie however the fact is we (the EU) HAVE started such a policy. It's called REACH. A policy engineered to supposedly protect us from harm.

Every chemical we use (pretty much the precursor of all manufacturing process) now has to be registered and assessed for hazard. This theoretically stops imports of chemical raw materials from outside the EU unless the supplier has undergone the process.

However what the EU engineered was a system bias to those that could afford the process. It will theoretically stop cheap, inferior and unregulated import but at the sacrifice of entrepreneur science. Many believe the big pharma and chemical giants of Germany were behind the proposal. It effectively destroys new ideas and methods unless you have deep pockets to pay for the registration process.

Also and quite ridiculous - it does not stop the import of finished goods. For example the Chinese can send us a TV full of potentially toxic substances and there is no regulation.

So the EU has basically made it even harder for EU companies to compete.

They also decided the best place for this new regulator was Helsinki. They spent multi millions on building the labs and infrastructure but failed to realise there are not many scientist who would want to actually apply to work and live in Helsinki so the whole plan has been delayed as they offer larger and larger sums of our EU tax as incentive wages to try and fill the place.

I personally know of many high street products which are a risk to us, manufactured in China or India using very dangerous chemicals and process. I've seen what they use, I've tried to sell safe alternatives but ultimately they don't care because we still buy them as is.

 

[gannetsarewe]

An outsider's perspective.

Washington Post
Britain flirts with economic insanity

A poster urging people to vote to leave the European Union in the upcoming referendum. (James Pheby/Agence France-Presse via Getty Images)
By Robert J. Samuelson OpinionsMay 1
Countries usually don’t knowingly commit economic suicide, but in Britain, millions seem ready to give it a try. On June 23, the United Kingdom will vote to decide whether to quit the European Union, the 28-nation economic bloc with a population of 508 million and a gross domestic product of almost $17 trillion. Let’s not be coy: Leaving the E.U. would be an act of national insanity.

It would weaken the U.K. economy, one of Europe’s strongest. The E.U. absorbs 44 percent of Britain’s exports; these might suffer because trade barriers, now virtually nonexistent between the U.K. and other E.U. members, would probably rise. Meanwhile, Britain would become less attractive as a production platform for the rest of Europe, so that new foreign direct investment in the U.K. — now $1.5 trillion — would fall.


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Also threatened would be London’s status as Europe’s major financial center, home (for example) to 78 percent of E.U. foreign exchange trading. With the U.K. out of the E.U., some banking activities might move to Frankfurt or other cities. This would be a big blow.

Losses could be considerable. A study from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), after making assumptions about U.K. trade and investment, concluded that “Brexit” — shorthand for Britain’s “exit” from the E.U. — could “shave off” $3,200 from average British household income by 2020. No one really knows, but other studies reach similar conclusions.

Indeed, the adverse effects may be undercounted, argues OECD SecretaryGeneral Angel Gurría. Noting that U.K. economic growth in the first quarter of 2016 was the slowest since 2012, he says that uncertainty over Britain’s future is already causing businesses to delay hiring and investment decisions.

British finance minister puts a price on Brexit Play Video1:38
British finance minister George Osborne said a vote to leave the E.U. would do permanent damage to the country's economy. (Reuters)
What would Britain get from all this? Good question.

There are three main complaints against the E.U., says Nile Gardiner, who was an aide to British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and now works at the conservative Heritage Foundation.


First, the outpouring of regulations from Brussels — the seat of the E.U. — has compromised Britain’s sovereignty. On some issues, the European Court of Justice can overrule British courts.

Second, the E.U.’s liberal migration rules may expose Britain to terrorists or overburden its welfare system. (Once people become E.U. citizens, they are allowed to live or work anywhere in the bloc.)

Finally, the E.U. imposes costs on Britain — an annual contribution to the E.U. budget plus the costs of regulations.

The E.U. certainly isn’t immune to criticism. It is often an elitist institution that has centralized too much power in Brussels for a continent characterized by huge differences of national history and culture. It has also committed massive errors, the adoption of the euro probably being the largest. (One currency didn’t work well for all countries. Britain wisely decided not to join.)

Still, most complaints seem exaggerated. The U.K.’s net annual contribution to the E.U. budget is about 0.5 percent of Britain’s GDP. That’s hardly crushing. Some E.U. regulations may be overkill, but Britain’s labor and product markets are among the least regulated of advanced countries.

As for immigrants, studies “show that these workers pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits,” says Frances Burwell of the Atlantic Council. “They’ve come to work.”

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What this debate is really about is Britain’s place in the world and its self-identity. Britain has long been of Europe but also apart from it. The British Empire was once the world’s largest. To be simply another member of a continental confederation, albeit an important member, offends this heritage. The nostalgic yearning is understandable, but it is not a policy.

Ironically, leaving the E.U. would confirm the U.K.’s reduced status. The U.K. would have to renegotiate its trading agreements with the E.U. and dozens of other countries. A deal with the E.U. is essential. For the U.K., the best outcome would be to retain much of its preferential access, which — as a practical matter — would mean continuing contributions to the E.U. budget and abiding by most E.U. regulations. The status quo would survive, except that the U.K. would have no influence over E.U. policies. Anything less than this would have the E.U. putting its own members at a competitive disadvantage.


Viewed this way, Brexit is an absurdity. But it is a potentially destructive absurdity. It creates more uncertainty in a world awash in uncertainty. This would weaken an already sputtering global economy by giving firms and consumers another reason to pull back on spending.

It would be better for the U.K. to stay in the E.U. It would also be better for the E.U., because Britain provides political and intellectual balance. Finally, it would be better for the United States, which doesn’t need a major ally — Britain — to go delusional

 

[Ceres]

I want to see our MPs finally start working for us and not for the banks and the super rich who are the ones who benefited and will continue to benefit from our Euro involvement.

lololololll.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

lololololll.

I can but dream ?

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

I was in Port Talbot 4 weeks ago. 2 days of travelling round the failing industrial estates of S. Wales - Tredegar Cwmbran Cardiff Merthy Abergavenny Talbot etc.

Neath Port Talbot (as the area is known around here) has the 6th highest mortality rate in the country out of 348 council areas. Source. Office for National Statistics.

Now I'm sure Tangshen is worse. But I don't give a bugger for that. Port Talbot is a horrendous place with a low life expectancy and that is because of industrialisation, industrialisation that everywhere else benefits from apart from Port Talbot.

PS Your carbon footprint must be pretty shit with all those flights.

EDIT This part of the debate started from you claiming tight controls on steel that China doesn't have. My argument is these controls, which probably came from the EU anyway (am I right?) came too late. All industrialised areas take decades to recover from the impoverished working conditions they originally existed under. If we leave the EU, won't these improvements in working practices be washed away by even more capitalistic governments (determined to find a way to make up for the shortfall in trade we will suffer?)

I do fear workers rights, which are definitely instigated by the EU, being wiped away in a second. Brexit will not usher in socialism. A different option would be to nationalise our steel industries, taking the loss on the chin, but guaranteeing better quality of life for years to come.

Know what? I'm at least partly playing devils advocate. The EU technically won't even let us nationalise. It's written in to the TEFU, article 106, that all countries have to follow a narrow range of new-liberal policies. Which largely rules out nationalisation and socialism of any meaningful sort.

That's why I am abstaining. I can't vote for the protection of capitalism (remain). Nor can I vote for what I believe are the consequences of Brexit, a policy hijacked by the more lunatic fringes of dodgy right wing belief in this country, even if there are some Brexiteers, like yourself, who may not be like that. Once we shut that gate, the horse will have bolted. And we'll be left with a Shetland pony. A white one no doubt.

 

[Ceres]

brexit = royal family and eton old boys club rule over the plebs, life will get worse for everyone except those at the top and frankly while it already feels like we have taken steps back into the victorian era, brexit will leave us facing the fucking dark ages.

 

[Itsgoneundertheboa]

PS Your carbon footprint must be pretty shit with all those flights.

EDIT This part of the debate started from you claiming tight controls on steel that China doesn't have. My argument is these controls, which probably came from the EU anyway (am I right?) came too late. All industrialised areas take decades to recover from the impoverished working conditions they originally existed under. If we leave the EU, won't these improvements in working practices be washed away by even more capitalistic governments (determined to find a way to make up for the shortfall in trade we will suffer?)

I do fear workers rights, which are definitely instigated by the EU, being wiped away in a second. Brexit will not usher in socialism. A different option would be to nationalise our steel industries, taking the loss on the chin, but guaranteeing better quality of life for years to come.

Know what? I'm at least partly playing devils advocate. The EU technically won't even let us nationalise. It's written in to the TEFU, article 106, that all countries have to follow a narrow range of new-liberal policies. Which largely rules out nationalisation and socialism of any meaningful sort.

That's why I am abstaining. I can't vote for the protection of capitalism (remain). Nor can I vote for what I believe are the consequences of Brexit, a policy hijacked by the more lunatic fringes of dodgy right wing belief in this country, even if there are some Brexiteers, like yourself, who may not be like that. Once we shut that gate, the horse will have bolted. And we'll be left with a Shetland pony. A white one no doubt.[/QUOTE]

Carbon footprint is high although in defence the work I do has in many areas direct impact on energy saving. A lot of the old technologies we made safer and the new ones helped to make more efficient.

I started my debate by the fact I could find no real truth to persuade me to stay in. It's great to read economists but everyone forgets economists are only one step above the medicine man. Prediction and guess.

I also considered abstaining but as I said I have to really think what's important for me and don't think of others. It's my vote I should use it by collating only the information and knowledge I personally have seen and learnt "my own experience".

You are correct in the case of Steel way to little way to late it was inevitable and correct the working man who does the work will always be the one who suffers (ragged trousered philanthropy).

The only way I personally can see any chance of change is to show this government that I don't back them in their remain. For me personally, ignoring all the media and economist circus, things don't work in business. I dont vote then it's a lost voice. I vote for a change maybe just maybe we will see it happen.

Although admitted Theressa May pushed me over to the out when she FINALLY announced she was remain. It was so cringy, she thought herself so calm and collective to try and steer away from the fact that the suggestion was she had to to stand any chance of a pop for No 10.

Workers rights? They are stronger in the Uk than any other EU country except France and always have been. The Eu has actually tried to reduce them!!

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

^

Your final sentence is utter tosh Boa. Germany for one has many more workers rights than us. And those we do have have largely been implemented and strengthened by the EU. Rights for part time and temporary workers, maternal benefits, working parents and many health and safety issues, all seen as 'red tape' by Brexiteers, are all examples of rights extended or rubber stamped by Brussels and feared to be lost by the TU movement. Did you see Boris Johnson pretending to defend such rights on TV a couple of weeks ago? Uncomfortable as fuck. Uncomfortable because he knew he was lying.

Again, my argument is we have lost trust in our own ability to re-establish these rights once the right wing remove them. And they will. You've seen the treatment Corbyn has been given over the last year. It's no wonder socialists are scared into voting remain.