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Opioids Ester salts of morphine - the forgotten group

kokaino

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
2,937
Location
Detroit
Here is how opiates/opioids are often broken down:

Natural, Semi-synthetic, and Synthetic

But it's actually like this:

Natural Opiates: Morphine freebase, codeine, thebaine, noscapine, etc
Morphine salts opiates: Morphine sulfate, morphine diacetate (diacetylmorphine; heroin), morphine dinicotinate (nicomorphine), morphine dipropionate (dipropanoylmorphine), desomorphine, acetylpropionylmorphine, dibenzoylmorphine, diacetyldihydromorphine
Semi-synthetic opioids: Hydrocodone, oxycodone, hydromorphone, oxymorphone, buprenorphine
Synthetic opioids: Methadone, fentanyl, levorphanol, meperidine/pethidine, fentanyl analogues, propoxyphene
 
Are most of those semi-synthetics derivatives of codeine and Thebaine?

And also, I've heard that by itself Thebaine is not active?

No thebaine isn't an active opiate. Some semi-synthetic opioids are either derivatives of codeine or thebaine (in the case of hydrocodone and oxycodone). In the case of hydromorphone and oxymorphone they are derived from morphine.
 
as someone who has had the pointless pleasure of ingesting thebaine, it actually does produce some effects. but they're obviously nothing like a full agonist like oxycodone or something. more stimulating (in a mild sense). it would not be worth it go out of one's way to do so, but as I had some thebaine in college from a clandestine lab experiment, I find that thebaine seemed to make the heroin I was taking at the time significantly more potent. but this is just anecdotal imho sorta deal.

nice thread kok!

fresh poppy leaves actually do make a great salad base! no kidding either, they have a nice crunch to them.
 
as someone who has had the pointless pleasure of ingesting thebaine, it actually does produce some effects. but they're obviously nothing like a full agonist like oxycodone or something. more stimulating (in a mild sense). it would not be worth it go out of one's way to do so, but as I had some thebaine in college from a clandestine lab experiment, I find that thebaine seemed to make the heroin I was taking at the time significantly more potent. but this is just anecdotal imho sorta deal.

nice thread kok!

fresh poppy leaves actually do make a great salad base! no kidding either, they have a nice crunch to them.
Interesting. I did notice smoked raw opium was way more stimulating than morphine. Really didn't realize how high I was till I smoked some bud. What was the the dose/ROA?
 
Not forgotten! Definately NOT forgotten- just very, very foreign to the USA. This is for 2 reasons-

1) When heroin (as well as pretty much all the morphine salts listed below) were discovered europe was in the grip of a TB epidemic. As the treatment for TB was extremely crude back then (as well as not knowing much about the condition itself) many European chemists focused their intentions on creating powerful anti-tussives (things that supress your desire/need to cough). That is why, say, nicomorphine was discovered in Europe and has only ever been prescribed in Europe. They were not really trying to create analgesics, let alone anesthetics, they were trying to develop anti-tussives in a misguided belief that they assisted in the treatment of TB.

The USA, with a far lower population density as well as a slower rate of industrialisation did not face the same problems with TB that Europe did in the late 19th century- so they didn't need a thousand different powerful opiates that also happened to be strong anti-tussives. This is also why DXM was developed- attempting to find a strong anti-tussive that exerted no analgesic effects (pity about all the NMDAr anatagonism ;)), look at the structure of DXM/DXO and compare them to teh structure of codeine/morphine. Interesting stuff- removing/rearranging a few atoms/bonds can completely change a chemical while retaining the same basic skeleton.

2) Until after WWII the USA was largely reliant on opium produced in Turkey. As Turkey shared a boarder with the USSR US-Turkish were often very delicate (part of the arrangement to remove the nukes from cuba was for the US to remove its nukes from Turkey- you can see how all sides were tense) and due to the US inability to be self-sufficent in opium production (I have no idea why they didn't just start growing their own poppies) the decision was made to develop entirely synthetic opioids. This was initially based on the fact that theibaine (which is a precursor to many semi-synthetic opiates) was cheaper to produce than morphine. I suspect the fact that the US government seized/voided all German patents registered 1933-45 (thus meaning that the US govt got the patent for methadone and oxycodone as 'reperations', for instance), as well as giving safe-haven/protection from prosecution of many of Germany's best chemists played a big part in their thinking. And that's why when I got my wisdom teeth pulled I got some NSAIDs and a big cup of harden the fuck up, while Americans often get percocet/vicodin when they get teeth pulled.

The situtation changed after the French (who love giving the US a big 'FUCK YOU! HAWHAWHAW') bred a variety of opium poppy, 70% of the alkaloids which it produces being theibaine (it produces virtually no morphine though). This is a brillant example of the potential for biosynthesis- if you've read tikhal you'll know how excited biosynthesis made Shulgin. Which leads us to the modern period, where the cold war has ended and 80% of the worlds poppies are grown in tasmania- both for Theibaine and for Morphine (the morphine, ironically, is mainly used to make codeine- I believe most pharm morphine is actually synthetic). I believe that Afghanistan should be rebulit around the opium poppy- with the growth of the Indian and Chinese chemical synthesis industry we may actually see this happen. Farmers should be given specially bred pharmacutical seeds and they should be paid much more than the heroin manufacturers could or would. Boom- Afghanistans thriving economy is actually legal, legitimate and making the world a better place. If every Afghan opium farmer formed a cooperative that negotiated as a group with pharma companies (obviously initially with help from the UN, the Red Crescent and various Islamic charities) then they would end the war in a month and the Taliban would quickly run out of money to fund their operations in Afghanistan (being based in Pakistan and all).

There is 'The Emperor Wears No Clothes' style book that needs to be written about the maddness that the US pain management system and its geopolitical effects. The world would be a very different place if Britain forced the world to follow their pain-management system which incorperates diamorphine (the polite name for heroin). People are all up in arms about weed- which they should be, but prohibition as a whole is maddness and fentanyl/oxycodone/hydromorphone is yet another example of the maddness that prohibition has created- 'Here's a prescription for some completely pure, uncut mu full agonist that is stronger than that evil dirty drug heroin'. Then it costs more than heroin once you get it filled- awesome!

I have taken nicomorphine (which is virtually indistinguishable from heroin), dihydromorphine (which I reckon is one of the best opiates in the world) and diacetyldihyrdomorphine (better than heroin- the rush has legs, it lasts a good couple of hours longer and is equally potent as heroin imo).
 
Not forgotten! Definately NOT forgotten- just very, very foreign to the USA. This is for 2 reasons-

1) When heroin (as well as pretty much all the morphine salts listed below) were discovered europe was in the grip of a TB epidemic. As the treatment for TB was extremely crude back then (as well as not knowing much about the condition itself) many European chemists focused their intentions on creating powerful anti-tussives (things that supress your desire/need to cough). That is why, say, nicomorphine was discovered in Europe and has only ever been prescribed in Europe. They were not really trying to create analgesics, let alone anesthetics, they were trying to develop anti-tussives in a misguided belief that they assisted in the treatment of TB.

The USA, with a far lower population density as well as a slower rate of industrialisation did not face the same problems with TB that Europe did in the late 19th century- so they didn't need a thousand different powerful opiates that also happened to be strong anti-tussives. This is also why DXM was developed- attempting to find a strong anti-tussive that exerted no analgesic effects (pity about all the NMDAr anatagonism ;)), look at the structure of DXM/DXO and compare them to teh structure of codeine/morphine. Interesting stuff- removing/rearranging a few atoms/bonds can completely change a chemical while retaining the same basic skeleton.

2) Until after WWII the USA was largely reliant on opium produced in Turkey. As Turkey shared a boarder with the USSR US-Turkish were often very delicate (part of the arrangement to remove the nukes from cuba was for the US to remove its nukes from Turkey- you can see how all sides were tense) and due to the US inability to be self-sufficent in opium production (I have no idea why they didn't just start growing their own poppies) the decision was made to develop entirely synthetic opioids. This was initially based on the fact that theibaine (which is a precursor to many semi-synthetic opiates) was cheaper to produce than morphine. I suspect the fact that the US government seized/voided all German patents registered 1933-45 (thus meaning that the US govt got the patent for methadone and oxycodone as 'reperations', for instance), as well as giving safe-haven/protection from prosecution of many of Germany's best chemists played a big part in their thinking. And that's why when I got my wisdom teeth pulled I got some NSAIDs and a big cup of harden the fuck up, while Americans often get percocet/vicodin when they get teeth pulled.

The situtation changed after the French (who love giving the US a big 'FUCK YOU! HAWHAWHAW') bred a variety of opium poppy, 70% of the alkaloids which it produces being theibaine (it produces virtually no morphine though). This is a brillant example of the potential for biosynthesis- if you've read tikhal you'll know how excited biosynthesis made Shulgin. Which leads us to the modern period, where the cold war has ended and 80% of the worlds poppies are grown in tasmania- both for Theibaine and for Morphine (the morphine, ironically, is mainly used to make codeine- I believe most pharm morphine is actually synthetic). I believe that Afghanistan should be rebulit around the opium poppy- with the growth of the Indian and Chinese chemical synthesis industry we may actually see this happen. Farmers should be given specially bred pharmacutical seeds and they should be paid much more than the heroin manufacturers could or would. Boom- Afghanistans thriving economy is actually legal, legitimate and making the world a better place. If every Afghan opium farmer formed a cooperative that negotiated as a group with pharma companies (obviously initially with help from the UN, the Red Crescent and various Islamic charities) then they would end the war in a month and the Taliban would quickly run out of money to fund their operations in Afghanistan (being based in Pakistan and all).

There is 'The Emperor Wears No Clothes' style book that needs to be written about the maddness that the US pain management system and its geopolitical effects. The world would be a very different place if Britain forced the world to follow their pain-management system which incorperates diamorphine (the polite name for heroin). People are all up in arms about weed- which they should be, but prohibition as a whole is maddness and fentanyl/oxycodone/hydromorphone is yet another example of the maddness that prohibition has created- 'Here's a prescription for some completely pure, uncut mu full agonist that is stronger than that evil dirty drug heroin'. Then it costs more than heroin once you get it filled- awesome!

I have taken nicomorphine (which is virtually indistinguishable from heroin), dihydromorphine (which I reckon is one of the best opiates in the world) and diacetyldihyrdomorphine (better than heroin- the rush has legs, it lasts a good couple of hours longer and is equally potent as heroin imo).

How on earth have you taken these ? From what I gather they are pretty obscure in most parts. I'm jelly.
 
dihydromorphine
That one is supposedly easily made @ home by homebaking dihydrocodeine. No further details. Though, I've read it's less pleasurable than morphine.
 
That one is supposedly easily made @ home by homebaking dihydrocodeine. No further details. Though, I've read it's less pleasurable than morphine.

I'm from NZ- if you want heroin, you make it yourself. Hence heroin in NZ is called 'homebake'- I can't go into details about the process itself (no synth talk, particularly not of the homebake kind) but I will say that people with no chemical knowledge or training can convert morphine into diacetylmorphine to a very high standard. If you happpen to have any understanding of chemistry or are simply curious/reckless then many potent morphine esters can be produced on a microscale using freely available goods (acetic anhydride is freely available here...basically).

Dihydromorphine is superior to morphine in every way. It even has an oral bioavailability close to codeine- not everyone is a slave to the needle.

So, short answer- how'd I take these things? No 8 wire and some D-I-FUCKING-Y mate ;)
 
Not forgotten! Definately NOT forgotten- just very, very foreign to the USA. This is for 2 reasons-

1) When heroin (as well as pretty much all the morphine salts listed below) were discovered europe was in the grip of a TB epidemic. As the treatment for TB was extremely crude back then (as well as not knowing much about the condition itself) many European chemists focused their intentions on creating powerful anti-tussives (things that supress your desire/need to cough). That is why, say, nicomorphine was discovered in Europe and has only ever been prescribed in Europe. They were not really trying to create analgesics, let alone anesthetics, they were trying to develop anti-tussives in a misguided belief that they assisted in the treatment of TB.

The USA, with a far lower population density as well as a slower rate of industrialisation did not face the same problems with TB that Europe did in the late 19th century- so they didn't need a thousand different powerful opiates that also happened to be strong anti-tussives. This is also why DXM was developed- attempting to find a strong anti-tussive that exerted no analgesic effects (pity about all the NMDAr anatagonism ;)), look at the structure of DXM/DXO and compare them to teh structure of codeine/morphine. Interesting stuff- removing/rearranging a few atoms/bonds can completely change a chemical while retaining the same basic skeleton.

2) Until after WWII the USA was largely reliant on opium produced in Turkey. As Turkey shared a boarder with the USSR US-Turkish were often very delicate (part of the arrangement to remove the nukes from cuba was for the US to remove its nukes from Turkey- you can see how all sides were tense) and due to the US inability to be self-sufficent in opium production (I have no idea why they didn't just start growing their own poppies) the decision was made to develop entirely synthetic opioids. This was initially based on the fact that theibaine (which is a precursor to many semi-synthetic opiates) was cheaper to produce than morphine. I suspect the fact that the US government seized/voided all German patents registered 1933-45 (thus meaning that the US govt got the patent for methadone and oxycodone as 'reperations', for instance), as well as giving safe-haven/protection from prosecution of many of Germany's best chemists played a big part in their thinking. And that's why when I got my wisdom teeth pulled I got some NSAIDs and a big cup of harden the fuck up, while Americans often get percocet/vicodin when they get teeth pulled.

The situtation changed after the French (who love giving the US a big 'FUCK YOU! HAWHAWHAW') bred a variety of opium poppy, 70% of the alkaloids which it produces being theibaine (it produces virtually no morphine though). This is a brillant example of the potential for biosynthesis- if you've read tikhal you'll know how excited biosynthesis made Shulgin. Which leads us to the modern period, where the cold war has ended and 80% of the worlds poppies are grown in tasmania- both for Theibaine and for Morphine (the morphine, ironically, is mainly used to make codeine- I believe most pharm morphine is actually synthetic). I believe that Afghanistan should be rebulit around the opium poppy- with the growth of the Indian and Chinese chemical synthesis industry we may actually see this happen. Farmers should be given specially bred pharmacutical seeds and they should be paid much more than the heroin manufacturers could or would. Boom- Afghanistans thriving economy is actually legal, legitimate and making the world a better place. If every Afghan opium farmer formed a cooperative that negotiated as a group with pharma companies (obviously initially with help from the UN, the Red Crescent and various Islamic charities) then they would end the war in a month and the Taliban would quickly run out of money to fund their operations in Afghanistan (being based in Pakistan and all).

There is 'The Emperor Wears No Clothes' style book that needs to be written about the maddness that the US pain management system and its geopolitical effects. The world would be a very different place if Britain forced the world to follow their pain-management system which incorperates diamorphine (the polite name for heroin). People are all up in arms about weed- which they should be, but prohibition as a whole is maddness and fentanyl/oxycodone/hydromorphone is yet another example of the maddness that prohibition has created- 'Here's a prescription for some completely pure, uncut mu full agonist that is stronger than that evil dirty drug heroin'. Then it costs more than heroin once you get it filled- awesome!

I have taken nicomorphine (which is virtually indistinguishable from heroin), dihydromorphine (which I reckon is one of the best opiates in the world) and diacetyldihyrdomorphine (better than heroin- the rush has legs, it lasts a good couple of hours longer and is equally potent as heroin imo).

Most of what you say is true, but it is the morphine-line of opiates (the morphine salts, that are neither natural nor semi-synthetic but something in between but closer to the natural) like morphine sulfate, morphine diacetate (heroin; morphine prodrug), morphine dinicotinate (nicomorphine), morphine dipropionate (dipropanoylmorphine) and the others are the best and most euphoric opiates there are on the planet.

Germany created close to 90% of all opiates/opioids we have today from isolation of morphine in 1804 by the Germans to the creation of most of the morphine salts above to dihydromorphine in 1900, dihydrocodeine in 1908, oxymorphone in 1914, oxycodone in 1916, hydrocodone in 1920, hydromorphone in 1924, diacetyldihydromorphine in 1928 (morphine salt), methadone in 1937, morphine dipropionate (dipropanoylmorphine) in 1972 (morphine salt), and the list goes on and on and on. The Austrians made morphine dinicotinate (nicomorphine) in 1904 (morphine salt) and hydromorphinol in 1932.

Even some structural isomers of codeine are more incredible than many of the "semi-synthetics", ie. heterocodeine made by the Germans in 1932.

It isn't the semi-synthetic/synthetic oxycodone, hydrocodone, hydromorphone, oxymorphone, fentanyl, pethidine, methadone, or levorphanol that are the best.
 
Hi kokaino limanov and everone else,
You guys seem to have some really good knowledge about opioids natural semi natural and synthetics. most synthetics are not among the best opiates are because of the fact there either to weak , to strong like fentanyl and its analogues , lacking the diamorphine type euphoria or have a stupidly long half life like methadone or laam and sometimes block the euphoria from better opiates. I dont suppose you know much about dipipanone and dextromoramide my favorite synthetics ? For some reason so little is known about dipipanone how it was discovered and who by etc i do wonder if this is down to the fact it was banned and not used in the usa from around the 70's orinformation on the drug has not been recorded online for some reason. Id like to know why it seems so much better than morphine orally. I cant find any information on dipipanone oral bio at all. I found a conversion rate by wales.nhs.uk that essentially says it is half the strength of morphine and 10mg of oral diconal is equal to 5mg of oral morphine. Theres no way that can be correct in my opinion as its related to methadone which we all know has a very high oral bio compared to morphine and is at least twice the strength probably 3x, i wonder if the conversion ratio was recorded the wrong way round as 20 of morphine to 10 of diconal sounds more like it to me. Ive had experience with both diconal and morphine orally and diconal is deffinatley far superior on myself. Even morphine combined with cyclizine is nothing on diconal at equal doses. Also diconal is easily on par strength wise with oxycodone with superior euphoria. how or why they came up with that i dont know but im sure everyone whos had both diconal and morphine would agree with me. I wish synthesis discussions was allowed idd love to find out how to make synthetic opiates like diconal and the potent palfium. Ive got to consider by friday on if i shud change back to fent patches or not as morphine is crap orally on me now after being on it 4 years in a lot of pain all time and never get no sleep. Im tempted to ask for some dipipanone but am worried my doc would think i want them to inject or sell because of their reputation. I could probably cope with the time release morphine if my instant release morphine was changed to diconal. Oh wat to do what to do :(
 
I hope this comment is allowed and not banned under synthesis rules ( i appologise if it is and can a mod delete it for me just this bit not above bit, but this is common knowledge to basically everyone anyway) right my question ...........> Is it possible to utilize the same method used for making crack or freebase cocaine to clean up morphine tabs or capsules to get the crap out of them for harm reduction and into a freebase form or as Clean morphine Hydrochloride or Sulphate containing no inactive stuff added to the pills and the waxy gunk etc my intentions are to use it IM way as i have no veins i can use plus i have not iv'd reguarly for over 6-7 years only IM also i cant plug morphine like most people as an alternative because i find it less effective than having it orally for some odd reason it seems very weak plugging miss emma to me. Thanks guys peace out ;)
 
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Nope cleaning pills is way more intense a process. You can covert morphine hcl to freebase morphine like cocaine hcl to freebase cocaine.
 
Desomorphine isn't a morphine salt it's an opioid. I don't like the distinction between semisynthetic and synthetic, to me their both synthetic, but I guess you'd consider it semisynthetic.
 
Here is how opiates/opioids are often broken down:

Natural, Semi-synthetic, and Synthetic

But it's actually like this:

Natural Opiates: Morphine freebase, codeine, thebaine, noscapine, etc
Morphine salts opiates: Morphine sulfate, morphine diacetate (diacetylmorphine; heroin), morphine dinicotinate (nicomorphine), morphine dipropionate (dipropanoylmorphine), desomorphine, acetylpropionylmorphine, dibenzoylmorphine, diacetyldihydromorphine
Semi-synthetic opioids: Hydrocodone, oxycodone, hydromorphone, oxymorphone, buprenorphine
Synthetic opioids: Methadone, fentanyl, levorphanol, meperidine/pethidine, fentanyl analogues, propoxyphene

pethidine Iv is underrated.
 
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