Enlightenment like how?

[.Lucid.]

thanks buddha. 8)

what i obviously meant was that we're getting somewhere with this conversation.. obviously we're already here, and here is all we'll ever be. youre redundantly acting as if youre the only one of us who has an understanding of "enlightenment" and its extremely patronizing lol. dont worry, i know what im talking about so you can spare me your pearls of wisdom.

and trust me dude, youre not fully realized. none of us here are.

 

[Dedbeet]

thanks buddha. 8)

what i obviously meant was that we're getting somewhere with this conversation.. obviously we're already here, and here is all we'll ever be. youre acting as if youre the only one here who has an understanding of "enlightenment" and its extremely patronizing lol. dont worry, i know what im talking about so you can spare me pearls of wisdom.

and trust me dude, youre not fully realized. none of us here are.

All of us here are.

Some of us may not want it, and so be searching for it in order to not have it.

It's the only reason to search... you get that familiar feeling of want and need that feels like "me".

Peace...

 

[.Lucid.]

all of us here are fully self realized? nope try again lol

 

[Dedbeet]

all of us here are fully self realized? nope try again lol

OK.

All of us here are fully self-realized.

Unless we don't want it, and are running away from the present and into the future.

Of course, you can't get away from the present.

 

[.Lucid.]

yea no one is arguing the fact that the present moment is all there ever is.. but maybe 1% of 1% of the human race has come to this realization and even fewer manage to sustain it. if you think youre fully self realized, fully enlightened, try again lol. thats just your ego buddy. if all of us were fully self realized we'd have a world full of christs and buddhas, completely free from suffering.. and we're not even close, so i dont see how you can even begin to argue that.

 

[Dedbeet]

yea no one is arguing the fact that the present moment is all there ever is.. but maybe 1% of 1% of the human race has come to this realization and even fewer manage to sustain it.

It isn't something that needs to be sustained.

It's something that needs to stop being rejected, in favor of chasing dreams.

I don't know about the % of the human race; could be. Doesn't actually matter. There's only one of us that really matters, and we all know which one that is.

Peace...

 

[Dedbeet]

It's true; it isn't an accomplishment, I'm sure you've heard that one.

But you won't accept that it's actually what the separate self wants least of all, that it's actually rejecting and running away from.

Because you want to run after it. Is that true?

 

[.Lucid.]

yea i think youre confused about what self realization is, but ok.. im not going to argue with you because youre just rambling.. youre in guru mode, and like i said its totally patronizing. get over yourself lol.

 

[Dedbeet]

yea i think youre confused about what self realization is, but ok.. im not going to argue with you because youre just rambling.. youre in guru mode, and like i said its totally patronizing. get over yourself lol.

I don't want to argue either, so that's cool.

Peace...

 

[Raw Evil]

All of us here are fully self-realized.

Unless we don't want it, and are running away from the present and into the future.

Of course, you can't get away from the present.

The idea of self-realisation being some kind of "default" state never sat well with me. It would seem that there is too much turmoil for that to be the case. Life typically gravitates toward maintaining the status quo (countering chaos via homeostasis, for example), so if full self-realisation were the natural state of being, wouldn't we be drawn to it, rather than it being something we must strive for?

I know what I'm talking about

This is true for all subjective speakers. The trick, of course, is in communicating clearly enough such that other people also know

 

[vegan]

there isnt really much i said to "agree with" anyway, you either get what i meant or you dont. clearly you dont.

"Ce que l'on conçoit bien s'énonce clairement et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément"
boileau

= "What you understand well can be explained clearly and the words to say it come easily"

actually, i don't agree with this quote as human languages are extremely incomplete
but in this case, i just use it to insist that you haven't tried in the least to explain your point
if it doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't make sense to many other people
is your aim to share knowledge?

actually im talking about people like you who ramble on without really saying anything at all

i'm sorry, but posting "everything=nothing" or "the sun is salty. think about that" doesn't amount to posting "something" as in "something valuable"

it would be like me posting the boileau quote without translating it and saying "you either get what i mean or you don't"

there's nothing productive in that

if you want others to follow your idea, you must not just give the map but also the key

do you really not know what a paradox is and understand the relevance of one to the topic of enlightenment?

- paradox : yes
- relevance : i don't see the sense of the paradox you mentioned, no

i cant imagine why you seem so personally offended by it

people here really like to say that i'm offended

i suppose that it's a knee-jerk reaction showing their own feelings

i don't get offended... by anything
believe it or no, i don't care

i'm interested about ideas, not about "who will win the thread"

and anyway, the winner is the one who the thread has made change his opinion, because he's the one who has progressed

the one who hasn't changed of opinion hasn't gained anything personally
if his ideas were interesting, he may have helped others gain something. they are the winners

how exactly am i giving drugs a bad reputation?

that's a joke
i'm having fun with the stereotype of the stoner who comes up with great revelations that make no sense
i don't know you and have no idea what drugs you take
obviously it wasn't serious
although it could have been if i knew more about you

I think I get it. There's no "moment of awakening" after which the individual is permanently enlightened. It's an active state, not a passive one. You don't "become" enlightened; you must continually "do" enlightenment.

there's not one unique recipe for enlightenment
there's not one unique type of enlightenment

just on bl, different posters with different experiences are here to prove it

some insist for instance that enlightenment is a journey, which means that there is not one state of enlightenment but many levels of it

but anyway, for people who indeed 'continually "do" enlightenment', enlightenment is a permanent process

talking about "enlightenment" is very different from "the moment of awakening"
so the fact that for many people, enlightenment is a process rather than a moment, doesn't salvage the affirmation that "Enlightenment is the realization that there is no enlightenment"

because you lose the need to get somewhere else. How can you ever be happy or at peace, if you're never contented to be where you are?

the world would be a nicer place if more people could feel this

yea i think youre confused about what self realization is, but ok.. im not going to argue with you because youre just rambling.. youre in guru mode, and like i said its totally patronizing. get over yourself lol.

if you haven't realized, there is little content in your posts
arguments make a point, not ad-hominem

you are better than you imagine at what you criticize

if full self-realisation were the natural state of being, wouldn't we be drawn to it,

how old is man? 200 000 years
how old is life? 3 700 000 000 years
how old is the universe? 13 700 000 000 years

we are at the very beginning of the evolution of man
yet, some people already are "aware"

without commenting if self-realisation is "natural" or no, depending on your criteria, you can consider that we're rather fast at it

 

[bwanajzj]

If you want to seek enlightenment in terms of spirit and mind, and don't know where to start, take a look at Erowid Mind & Spirit. Lots of bg info on religion, spirituality, different things to do to reach enlightenment, etc...

I chase enlightenment every day, and I receive it often, in so many different ways. It is life, and it is there to be lived and loved. Everything new you learn, even if is just an instinctual feeling that you know to be true but it remains to be proven, go with it, and you are all of a sudden enlightened. What is true, and learning that truth, is enlightenment; receiving the gift of pure truth on any matter. I might go as far as to say that I live for those moments of love and enlightenment, feeling at one with everything at once.

 

[.Lucid.]

"Ce que l'on conçoit bien s'énonce clairement et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément"
boileau

= "What you understand well can be explained clearly and the words to say it come easily"

actually, i don't agree with this quote as human languages are extremely incomplete
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah j iajfipjafasfkanmslfijasopfjasofaopssipojfiop hgj ioadvjvaiopjasvio jasviohasiovhoaduivgaduiohvuioadhhadovhadu8au ioashvioashvio asvhjo iasvhjioasjvo iasjvioasvhjio ashvoasihvioasva

yea i got like 2 sentences into your post and i was ready to hang myself.. 8(


im one who believes that when talking about enlightenment the simpler you keep it the better.. considering we're talking about something that cant actually be expressed in words. so i stand by everything ive said and i appologize for trying to add to this silly discussion lol. ill remember not to join in next time because its simply too frustrating and its pointless anyway lol.

sooo im officially bailing on this horrible thread. have fun lol. 8)

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

Criticizing threads isn't really the act of the enlightened is it?

 

[Raw Evil]

how old is man? 200 000 years
how old is life? 3 700 000 000 years
how old is the universe? 13 700 000 000 years

we are at the very beginning of the evolution of man
yet, some people already are "aware"

without commenting if self-realisation is "natural" or no, depending on your criteria, you can consider that we're rather fast at it

Here I had used "natural" as a synonym for "default" - I certainly didn't mean to imply that it was in some way unnatural

there's not one unique recipe for enlightenment
there's not one unique type of enlightenment

just on bl, different posters with different experiences are here to prove it

Perhaps not, but I expect there would be some common element to it. There are commonalities between all of the things that humans discuss; this is how language was able to manifest. Personally, I enjoy attempting to define these commonalities. This is the very basis of philosophy.

some insist for instance that enlightenment is a journey, which means that there is not one state of enlightenment but many levels of it

but anyway, for people who indeed 'continually "do" enlightenment', enlightenment is a permanent process

talking about "enlightenment" is very different from "the moment of awakening"
so the fact that for many people, enlightenment is a process rather than a moment, doesn't salvage the affirmation that "Enlightenment is the realization that there is no enlightenment"

You're right; perhaps "enlightenment is only possible after one realises that it is not permanent" would have more aptly summed up my stance from a logically- / grammatically-correct point of view. The whole "X = !X" thing is really quite faux-Zen and requires that "enlightenment" be understood by the listener/reader as the crash/bang/instant/permanent kind that I don't consider accurate.

I'm curious, what exactly is your take on enlightenment?

 

[malakaix]

What seems to create so much confusion that i've witnessed is understanding and realizing that everything you believe to be 'you' is not you.. everything that you identify with is illusion, awakening to self-realization seems to create a breaking down process of this illusion over a long period of time, which through spiritual integration.. eventually leads towards dis-identification and detachment from finite reality to authentic identification with the eternal formless.

Being... intensely aware of arising forms of thought and emotion, but not identifying with either.

I posted this video in one of the other threads in P&S, but it's by far one of the most fluid explanations of enlightenment from a more detailed description.

Ken Wilber - Subject Becomes Object

 

[Dedbeet]

What seems to create so much confusion that i've witnessed is understanding and realizing that everything you believe to be 'you' is not you.. everything that you identify with is illusion, awakening to self-realization seems to create a breaking down process of this illusion over a long period of time, which through spiritual integration.. eventually leads towards dis-identification and detachment from finite reality to authentic identification with the eternal formless.

One doesn't get to identify with the formless, because it's always changing.

The formless is ever-changing form. You can't identify with that.

It's more just the end of identification, and nothing replaces it. The sense of separation goes away, because it's based on taking the formless to be separate from form, and form to be separate from the formless.

Thoughts themselves are changing, from moment to moment, in a ceaseless flow.

Consciousness is actually its content, at every moment, from moment-to-moment.

Peace...

 

[.Lucid.]

One doesn't get to identify with the formless, because it's always changing.

The formless is ever-changing form. You can't identify with that.

It's more just the end of identification, and nothing replaces it.

oh look, a paradox.. identification with nothing is the end of identification.

The formless is ever-changing form.

in other words.. everything = nothing.





and the thread comes full circle as you make my original point for me. what a waste of time lol.. 8)

 

[Dedbeet]

oh look, a paradox.. identification with nothing is the end of identification.

Not identification with nothing.

Non-identification.

Not identifying with anything, not even "nothing".

"Nothing" is just another conceptual idea. Ain't no such thing.

Non-existence is nonexistent.

Peace...

 

[Dedbeet]

Well, it's true... if you mentally picture "nothing", you're picturing a thing.

There really is no such thing as nothing.

You'll never see a chair non-existing in the corner of the room.

It's just a conceptual idea.