David
Ex-Bluelighter
yougene said:
Information is energy.
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Energy/Math Discussion
- Thread starter zybotelectron
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Information is energy.
skjalff
Bluelighter
^cucumbers are energy.
David
Ex-Bluelighter
^^So are lemons. I tried that lightbulb with lemons experiment as a kid, but it takes more lemons than they tell you in the book. It does work though.
skjalff
Bluelighter
information could be energy (as could cucumbers and lemons, i guess), but claiming it universally true is wrong. Information is just a mental construct, just like "knowledge" and thus cannot exist outside of human cognition. For a human a blinking light might transmit information, without a human to see it - its just a blinking light.
Slaughterhousefive42
Bluelighter
Information doesn't have to be human based. If you assume information is the interactions of relations in reality, it seems pretty damn close to the flow of energy....It is still information if we are not there to see it, I would even submit our observational process distorts the information to suit our cognition. Aren't we all just frozen light?
skjalff
Bluelighter
umm... in short - no. Matter and energy are related though distinct.
I'd be more inclined to say information was entropy than energy, and even then its stretching it. Patterns and shapes to one person are meaningless noise to another (I'm sure you can appreciate thatDavid said:
), but the energy of the thing has not changed. Braille on paper is just bumpy paper to me, to a blind person its Shakespeare. Energy is required to give something information, but it is not that the information itself is energy, but the configuration of a system to be meaningful requires energy, which is then degraded into the system usually.
In the world of the very small they are indistinguishable.skjalff said:
skjalff
Bluelighter
^^same in the "world of the very fast" - it doesnt make them universally indistinguishable... matter and energy are not the same and information is definitely not energy. (for the current level of understanding of things)
Slaughterhousefive42
Bluelighter
e = mc^2!!
energy = (+/-) change
information = how life sees change
energy carries information, information tells us about energy...It is almost impossible to separate the two. It seems as if the two terms present a chicken or egg....creator/created paradox.
energy = (+/-) change
information = how life sees change
energy carries information, information tells us about energy...It is almost impossible to separate the two. It seems as if the two terms present a chicken or egg....creator/created paradox.
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skjalff
Bluelighter
i'm a little tired, but i couldn't make very much sense of this post... e=mc^2... I fucking dare you, try and prove anything to me using this formula!! "information tells us about energy", "energy carries information" what the hell are you talking about?? Information is not even a physical concept, it cant really be defined outside human cognition, google information and energy, think about it and then tell me - what the hell do these two have to do with each other..
VelocideX
Bluelighter
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Information is not energy. This is rather easily demonstrated.... we have a law of conservation of energy, but no conservation of information.
What has the whole of human progress in science been? discovering of information.
Just look at maths. If someone proves a new theorem, then information certainly has not been conserved -- it has grown.
Information can similarly be destroyed. Imagine that one person knows a secret that no-one else knows. Kill this person. This information is then irretrievably lost.
What has the whole of human progress in science been? discovering of information.
Just look at maths. If someone proves a new theorem, then information certainly has not been conserved -- it has grown.
Information can similarly be destroyed. Imagine that one person knows a secret that no-one else knows. Kill this person. This information is then irretrievably lost.
yougene
Bluelighter
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skjalff said:
I think what he is saying is when observing the structure of energy, you are not actually observing energy but the information inherent within it. In this perspective energy is simply a medium for information.
Information is just as real as energy since they are both just conceptual frameworks, reflections of the observed universe.
As AlphaNumeric has pointed out, parallels could be drawn between Thermodynamic Systems and Information Systems with the concept of entropy. Similar properties are observed from both perspectives.....
David
Ex-Bluelighter
^^Exactly. Those that looked at it properly in the context of QT saw it.
Information in the modern sense is energy. You are looking at it right as you read the screen.
Paper is the fuel for fire, and therefore can be considered energy in storage. Just because it isn't burning at the moment you are reading it, doesn't change that fact.
In reality all forms of information storage have always also been a form of energy storage. With computers that is even more so. It takes energy to alter the particles in the storage media, and that energy isn't "lost". It sits on the storage media, and retains it's values.
Information in the modern sense is energy. You are looking at it right as you read the screen.
Paper is the fuel for fire, and therefore can be considered energy in storage. Just because it isn't burning at the moment you are reading it, doesn't change that fact.
In reality all forms of information storage have always also been a form of energy storage. With computers that is even more so. It takes energy to alter the particles in the storage media, and that energy isn't "lost". It sits on the storage media, and retains it's values.
skjalff
Bluelighter
^^^ok, so C-H compounds can undergo exothermic oxidation... its like saying pure titanium in vacuum is energy in storage, bc when its exposed to air its gonna form TiO2.. aight fine - they call it potential energy, but what does information have to do with it? Nature doesnt know information - it knows energy and mass - impulses/causes whatever - when i kick a ball it moves along a parabolic trajectory, i did not transmit information to it - i transmitted energy - it responded in adherence to the fundamental laws of nature. Information itself, as i said before, is a creation of man - a mental construct, so tying it to the fundamental laws of nature will again have to be done through some artificially created construct - which you have kinda provided in your post.
peace,
skjalff
peace,
skjalff
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Like others pointed out, matter and energy are both manifestation of the same thing. So both could act as a vessel for carrying information. However you cannot equate energy to information directly.
You can't say that information is energy because the very definition of the term information requires the presence of consciousness. If there is no conscious entity observing this information then it is simply a meaningless pattern. It is our minds, or any other form of awareness in the universe that gives meaning to the concept of information. Energy and matter by themselves can only act as medium to convey that information. There has to be awareness for something to be considered information.
You can't say that information is energy because the very definition of the term information requires the presence of consciousness. If there is no conscious entity observing this information then it is simply a meaningless pattern. It is our minds, or any other form of awareness in the universe that gives meaning to the concept of information. Energy and matter by themselves can only act as medium to convey that information. There has to be awareness for something to be considered information.
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yougene
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Grim said:
From the same perspective wouldn't a consciouss observer be needed for something to be a pattern as well?
Can't the same thing be said about energy? After all energy is not what is out there, energy is a representation of what is out there.
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skjalff
Bluelighter
grim: precisely my point.
yougene: no - the concept of "energy" could have a meaning outside of human (or some other) cognition - one of 'information" could not. Like the word/concept "language".. is language - energy? umm
skjalff
yougene: no - the concept of "energy" could have a meaning outside of human (or some other) cognition - one of 'information" could not. Like the word/concept "language".. is language - energy? umm
skjalff
yougene
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Technically nothing can have meaning outside of consciousness(as far as we know).skjalff said:
I never implied that information is energy. What I'm saying is that information is a property of energy. You could interpret information as RELATIVE differences in energy. But if there is no one there to observe those relative differences does that mean they are not there?
What about DNA? Is there any reason why it is more of an energy system then it is an information system?
Slaughterhousefive42
Bluelighter
Energy and information are both human made constructs, as yougene rightfully asserted. They both serve to help us better understand our reality. Each human is made of matter, essentially frozen energy. We comprehend the environment by the information we take in from around us. The information is carried by wave energy (physical touch, EM, sound) to our sensory organs. In this way, energy and information tag along to our nervous system. You can distinguish between the "energetic" heating effects of photons and the humans assessment of the optical information, but energy and information are two sides of the same conceptual coin.