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endogenous DMT release? Perhaps?

al-laddin

al-laddin

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Apr 10, 2014
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SO I have read about the endogenous DMT theory and how it may be responsible for at least some of the altered states you experience while sleeping. I don't know the studies , don't recall reading in detail what evidence their is to support it but it seems like the more "grounded" types of people I know reject this theory and believe it to be lacking in any evidence and its just some wishful speculation at best. Either way something interesting happened to me a few nights ago and this is what I jotted down after my full nights rest the next day. I think there may be something to this theory or at least SOME KIND of endogenous chemical which is visually psychoactive. I would like users of DMT to comment and let me know if this experience matches up. Thanks.

Ok so last night I woke with an intense urge to go pee. I had been in DEEP VIVID dream state only moments prior.

As I went to use the bathroom I noticed that I was experiencing visuals. They weren't explicitly intense but perhaps the intensity of the coming up stage of an average muhroom trip. To give you an idea it was the middle of the night so it was dark but Im willing to bet that I probably wouldnt have noticed them if the lights were on, so essentially I believe that these were strictly CEVs manifesting in near pitch black environment. No intoxicated mind to speak of besides the typical groggy, uncoordinated feeling you get moments after waking. There was a relaxed euphoria present and pleasant feeling in the body perhaps somewhat akin to 1mg alprazolam that isn't unusual for me upon waking.

Mind you I have never tried DMT or any 'huasca type concotion of oral dmt so I cant compare. But I have this to say; these visuals where mushroom like in flowing organic character, but more "watery" and delicate whereas mushrooms would be more robust and viscous. There was a more PASTEL color pallete which was also unlike psilocybin for me Psilocybin tends to have more earthy tones with a darker color pallete including violets and deep blues while still retaining a neon or electric character. These visuals where NOT super neon as LSD. I would say the colors were more subtle and existed in normal range of perception. There were no kaleidoscopes but more so organic hodgepodge of shapeless images and striped liquid oozing like a psychedelic poster. The ooze would begin to shimmer and rain down sparkling droplets of dew. They would then collect on the bottom of my visual perception and begin forming into other shapes of organic creatures with colorful patterns on them. At one point the dew collected at the bottom of my "visual screen" and morphed into nude females with long flowing hair. This persisited for what I can estimate as about 8 mins. There was no distinct psychedelic headspace , no anxiety. Just fascination. I watched the images slowly fade over the 8 mins and quickly fell back asleep.

Again I have no frame of reference in regards to DMT but this was VERY VERY clearly a psychedelic experience. It could have been some sort of flashback from a previous trip I suppose but the characteristics of the visuals where completely different from any substance I have ever experienced. It wasn't simply my imagination. There was very clearly defined visuals superimposed over my visual field. This leads me to trust that there is in fact an endogenous chemical in the human body that can very vividly induce a visual experience as it was very "drug-like". If I had more of this chemical flowing through me at the time Im convinced that the experience would have deepened and perhaps lasted longer as well.

On a side note, I do believe that I have experienced this before but never intentionally examined and consciously studied the experience.
 
I have this type of experience a lot
it is normal (to me)
sleep is on the far side of waking or normal consciousness
we play with our goodies and experience a more resonant consciousness = richer sensations - trails, echoes, loops
when we play too hard we black out
but when we come out of the black out it can be quite lovely
this sequence
normal consciousness - resonant psychedelic consciousness and black out
reverses as
blackout - resonant psychedelic consciousness -> normal waking consciousness

this is what you got when you went pee

it is what we get when we dream emerging from sleep
it is about the brain going from full reverb to damp and easy

I love it when it lasts

this does not require dmt
we do it normally
 
But you musnt forget, its all brain chemistry. The way your body feels is dependant on brain chemistry, especially an altered state, this was an altered state, without a doubt
 
chemistry is a part of it. but it is not all chemistry.
we are lucky to find some chemicals that trigger special things,
that does not mean it's all chemistry nor that it's all because of DMT or GOD or any other oversimplification
there is a lot going on in the brain all at once, and quickly too.
lots to watch.
lots to learn
 
This is entirely speculation, there's no conclusive evidence that the miniscule amount of DMT in your brain is used, whether during sleep, birth or death. I wake up every morning with weird CEV's, and I have visual fuzz constantly. I don't think DMT plays a worthwhile role in our brains, unless we ingest it of course 8)
 
The theory is the speculation of a single man that's never been backed up by evidence or proof. I don't think there's anything to it. There's a lot of chemicals in the brain and the process of sleep and how it affects the brain is not fully understood. There's way too many possible explanations to pin it on DMT.

When I was younger I regularly experienced unusual mental states coming in and out of sleep, some related to sleep paralysis and others unrelated. Once when I was in high school I woke up to my alarm clock but I didn't know what it was, how to operate it, what the symbols on it meant, or how to stop the noise. Then my dad came into my room and said something to me but I didn't recognize who he was and what he said sounded like gibberish.

Another time (during an episode of sleep paralysis) the entire room started shaking like an earthquake was happening and a demonic figure entered my room and floated above my body, laughing maniacally.

The brain can do weird things.
 
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I suspect that the trace amounts of DMT that have been found in the brain are most likely responsible for some functions, but I doubt it's in a way in which enough is released to make you trip. The brain obviously does produce a variety of tryptamines though, including melatonin and good old serotonin. I think sleep and dreaming is something far more complex than simply a release of DMT or any other substance. Melatonin certainly plays a big role.
 
I clearly said it was speculation, and asked for help determining what it may be that caused this. DMT is all I had to go on because its the only chemical I know of that would be responsible for OEV/CEV type phenomena very reminiscent of YET different from my 4-ho-dmt experiences. This wasn't hypnogic hallucination.... I have and do often experience sleep paralysis/obe/lucid dreams. So Im very familiar with those types of hallucinations.

Further this experience was clearly very much possessed a tryptamine like quality, but unique from LSD and 4-ho-dmt, and far different from mescalinine or phenethylamines. Again this was so clearly a drug-like experience that I am willing to accept it was some kind of "flashback".

Im 80% with Xorkoth on this, in fact this speculation that DMT is produced by the pineal gland isn't that far fetched. The pineal gland does in fact produce at least one tryptamine that is capable of producing psychoactive effects. Melatonine. In fact I cannot take melatonin without it producing some trippy effect so I stay away personally. There are numerous reports of people using melatonin to produce psychoactive effects. So its not so wild to speculate DMT is produced by the pineal gland as well. Considering we have found SOME in the brain. We already know that it produces other tryptamines and DMT has been located....I mean that's worth some speculation without ridicule IMO.
 
Whilst I don't think is much evidence for DMT release at any significant time in the human body, I could speculate that perhaps it serves some function as a serotonin receptor agonist during the full suppression of monoamine release during REM sleep...

But of course I should mention that I have nothing but the vaguest idea of what I'm talking about here :D
 
al-laddin said:
Im 80% with Xorkoth on this, in fact this speculation that DMT is produced by the pineal gland isn't that far fetched. The pineal gland does in fact produce at least one tryptamine that is capable of producing psychoactive effects. Melatonine. In fact I cannot take melatonin without it producing some trippy effect so I stay away personally. There are numerous reports of people using melatonin to produce psychoactive effects. So its not so wild to speculate DMT is produced by the pineal gland as well. Considering we have found SOME in the brain. We already know that it produces other tryptamines and DMT has been located....I mean that's worth some speculation without ridicule IMO.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Wild speculation with zero evidence behind it from people with little to no legitimate training in the relevant science is just a waste of everyone's time. I'm not ridiculing you, there's no need to take it personally. I just think it's important to point out that the DMT/pineal connection has absolutely no basis in science. It's a popular theory, so pointing out the reality of it is important to avoid the spread of misinformation.
 
Doldrugs are you saying that DMT has never been found in the human brain or that it has but theres no evidence that it has been produced by the pineal gland.
 
How does this paper from 2013 qualify as wild speculation with zero evidence from people with little to no legitimate training in relevant science?


NEW: DMT Found in the Pineal Gland of Live Rats

Post on 05/23/2013 by Hard Fork
"We’re excited to announce the acceptance for publication of a paper documenting the presence of DMT in the pineal glands of live rodents. The paper will appear in the journal Biomedical Chromatography and describes experiments that took place in Dr. Jimo Borjigin’s laboratory at the University of Michigan, where samples were collected. These samples were analyzed in Dr. Steven Barker’s laboratory at Louisiana State University, using methods that funding from the Cottonwood Research Foundation helped develop."

"The pineal gland has been an object of great interest regarding consciousness for thousands of years, and a pineal source of DMT would help support a role for this enigmatic gland in unusual states of consciousness. Research at the University of Wisconsin has recently demonstrated the presence of the DMT-synthesizing enzyme as well as activity of the gene responsible for the enzyme in pineal (and retina). Our new data now establish that the enzyme actively produces DMT in the pineal."


"The next step is to determine the presence of DMT in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), the fluid that bathes the brain and pineal. CSF is a possible route for pineal-synthesized DMT to effect changes in brain function. Successfully establishing DMT’s presence in this gland adds another link in the chain between the pineal and consciousness and opens new avenues for research."

https://www.cottonwoodresearch.org/dmt-pineal-2013/

Dr. Jimo Borjigin
http://medicine.umich.edu/dept/molecular-integrative-physiology/jimo-borjigin-phd
 
Thanks Zerbra, this is news to me! But more research that shows that traces have been found in the brain. The link is below. I don't understand where this vehement almost cult like school of thought came from that theres was ZERO evidence. It HAS BEEN FOUND in traces in the human brain. That's got to mean something...its got to be WORTH SOME speculation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3155724/

"N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a hallucinogen found endogenously in human brain that is commonly recognized to target the 5-hydroxytryptamine 2A receptor or the trace amine–associated receptor to exert its psychedelic effect. DMT has been recently shown to bind sigma-1 receptors, which are ligand-regulated "
 
That's actually really fascinating, I've never read that!

al-laddin said:
I don't understand where this vehement almost cult like school of thought came from
Click to expand...

I don't know why you're taking this so personally. Everything I'd read indicated there was no evidence of the pineal gland producing DMT in humans. And frankly, you weren't aware of the 2013 study when you posted, so nothing you read backed that up either. If anything, the belief that DMT is responsible for altered or spiritual states of consciousness is the cult like thinking. I'm interested in what science says, not what drug users imagine and pretend is equivalent to science. We still do not understand the function of DMT in the brain at all.

And I never said DMT wasn't found in the human brain.
 
the Cottonwood foundation is not un-partizan
statements like this should help you understand that the research is designed to support arguments and obfuscate science :
"in Dr. Steven Barker’s laboratory at Louisiana State University, using methods that funding from the Cottonwood Research Foundation helped develop"

anyone using these methods will generate more support to Cottonwood

it's like Blavatsky and spiritualism
 
Doldrugs said:
That's actually really fascinating, I've never read that!



I don't know why you're taking this so personally. Everything I'd read indicated there was no evidence of the pineal gland producing DMT in humans. And frankly, you weren't aware of the 2013 study when you posted, so nothing you read backed that up either. If anything, the belief that DMT is responsible for altered or spiritual states of consciousness is the cult like thinking. I'm interested in what science says, not what drug users imagine and pretend is equivalent to science. We still do not understand the function of DMT in the brain at all.

And I never said DMT wasn't found in the human brain.
Click to expand...

Ok lets start from a clean slate. First , I apologise I should have went about it differently and just posted the link that I did just a few hours ago. The link that I posted (from 2009) contains what has been what I assumed to be common knowledge. I have heard/read this information many moons ago. SO where I got offended was with words/phrases like "No evidence whatsoever and speculation".I took it personally because I had an experience that I believe to be very valid. I took a lot of time to share something that I thought would be of interest to some people on this forum and I tried to do it with as much objectivity as possible. Yes Im inclined to believe that it was a result of an endogenous tryptamine but I never would have if the experience didn't take on a tryptamine like quality. I believe to have experienced this state of consciousness before under similar circumstances (abruptly being awoken from deep sleep) but perhaps not to such an intense degree as I have never before thought to stop, stay awake and examine the experience. Im sincerely sorry if I came off aggressive.
 
It's alright, I generally come across as aggressive myself. I enjoy your posts. It is a fascinating topic to be sure.
 
pupnik said:
the Cottonwood foundation is not un-partizan
statements like this should help you understand that the research is designed to support arguments and obfuscate science :
"in Dr. Steven Barker’s laboratory at Louisiana State University, using methods that funding from the Cottonwood Research Foundation helped develop"

anyone using these methods will generate more support to Cottonwood

it's like Blavatsky and spiritualism
Click to expand...





I don't understand your cynicism. By saying that Cottonwood is "un-partizan" you are implying that there are sides to be taken and that (Strassman) has motives counter to science. If you cannot establish a causal connection between "these methods", Strassman's impure motives and "...the research is designed to support arguments and obfuscate science" then we have a false cause on our hands here. Can you support your claims as to exactly what makes Cottonwood "un-partizan" other than it being Strassman's place? To me, this seems totally neither here nor there and merely follows that one would attempt to further the research that one began. I suppose that you have inside information about a shadowy entheogenic cabal though?

Further, your attitude sucks. Why do you feel the need to "help me understand"? Please, also support your claim that "the research is designed to support arguments and obfuscate science". This is a serious claim so please provide evidence as to how it's all a sham. You talk about "the methods" like you have any idea as to what they are. This is bizarre. It is clearly support in the form of money. This is done all the time by governments. non-profits, ngo's, corporations, foundations, universities... So what are the motives of Strassman and Cottonwood? The fame, women, glory and riches? Everyone knows that scientists, doctors and researchers are often greedy and fame-hungry but what makes you so sure about this bunch?

This will all be independently verified, of course, and very soon. I hope you will be humble enough to admit your errors.

I'd also rethink your analogy. Crowley or Bailey would have been much more appropriate.
 
I just wanted to clarify that when I say "there's no evidence", I mean for the theory that there is a massive release of DMT at death, or birth as I have heard many people also claiming as fact. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence that DMT exists in some (small) amounts in the brain, and like I said I believe it surely plays some role in consciousness. But I think the process of whatever happens to consciousness during birth and death is far more complex than a DMT release.
 
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