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Electroconvulsive therapy for MDMA induced depression followed by Neurofeedback

somedud

Bluelighter
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Hello everyone, this if the first time i've posted in this ADD section. This is my situation, and hopefully a possbile resolution to a brutal depression i'm going through. Appx 4-5 months ago I finished a 4 month binge of MDMA upon which I used about once a week. Before this recent binge, i've probably used 40-50 times in 3 years, appx 300-500 pills in total, once up to 9 in one night.

My abuse has resulted in me dropping out of univtersity, losing my edge, becoming a social recluse (opposed to being the most social person you've ever met), and I feel extremelyyyy dumb. To the point where I can't remember what I did two hours previous, and literally can not hold a basic conversation.

My question, since this is ADD and I assume theres some pretty intellectual people in here on these topics, do you believe that an ECT therapy followed by a Neurofeedback therapy to oppose any cogntive declines (memory) from ECT, would be a possbile escape from this crippling depression, in hopes to not **** my brain up too much to return to school? i.e think this is a danagerous/risky approach?

Studies to back the theory of sprouting of new serotogenic axons (which is, to what I believe, to be the main reason depression (which persists for months/years [not weeks] occurs with those who have abused MDMA.

"Abstract
Depression in former ecstasy users may not respond to selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) possibly due to damaged serotonergic synapses following long-term heavy ecstasy use. We report findings in a patient suffering from MDMA-induced depression which was refractory to several antidepressive medications including selective noradrenergic reuptake inhibitor (SNRI) and SSRI. An add-on repeated bilateral electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) was able to achieve a stable remission of affective and cognitive symptoms with a follow-up of more than 1.5 years. Add-on ECT could be a treatment option in former ecstasy users with severe depressive disorders that fail to respond to SSRI and/or SNRI. Clinical trials are needed to evaluate further the usefulness of ECT in this patient group. "

and

"University of Dundee, Department of Psychiatry, Ninewells Hospital & Medical School, Dundee DD1 9SY, UK

Accepted 28 November 2000. Available online 19 February 2001.

Abstract
Electroconvulsive stimulation (ECS) has been shown recently to induce axonal sprouting of granule cells in the rodent hippocampus. This may relate to the clinical efficacy of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) in humans. We compared the effects of three different clinically effective antidepressant treatments on mossy fibre sprouting in the rat dentate gyrus using Timm’s histochemistry: (1) repeated spaced ECS; (2) daily administration for 4 weeks of the serotonin re-uptake inhibitor fluoxetine (1 mg/kg); and (3) daily administration for 4 weeks of the noradrenaline re-uptake inhibitor desipramine (5 mg/kg). The effect of subconvulsive electrical stimulation was also examined. Repeated ECS-induced sprouting while subconvulsive stimulation (which is ineffective clinically) did not. The two well-established chemical antidepressant therapies were also ineffective, indicating that induction of mossy fibre sprouting is not a common property of effective antidepressant agents. It is possible that the ability to induce sprouting might relate to the superior efficacy of ECT when compared to chemical antidepressants in clinical practice. Alternatively, it may contribute to the transient cognitive impairment that accompanies ECS in humans and other species."
 
Yes, you are on the right track here. There is more than this one study supporting using ECT for methamphetamine and mdma induced depression.

I myself have considered doing it many time and have gone so far as having a consultation for it. It is a definite risk, but probably the only thing that has a real shot at helping your type of depression.


For REAL mdma induced depression no conventional antidepressant will work and will likely make things worse. Send me messages if you want to talk i am an expert on mdma induced depression.


Also theres no need to start new threads on this. I have a thread that talks about using ECT for mdma induced depression and the whole topic around mdma depression has been beaten to death. So use the search engine please....
 
I can't seem to find any threads that regard this as a topic? Only a single suggestion in your post "best antidepressant for mdma induced depression". I think it's appropriate seeing how it addresses the subject in the topic, unless I missed something..
 
I don't see how much value ECT has for anyone. If you think your memory is bad now you should read some of the reports about people who have undergone ECT.

I would think of trying out psychedelics (specifically mushrooms or LSD, not stuff like MDA, 2c's, DOx, etc) before I would ECT....

I can't seem to find any threads that regard this as a topic? Only a single suggestion in your post "best antidepressant for mdma induced depression". I think it's appropriate seeing how it addresses the subject in the topic, unless I missed something..

Unless he can link you a previous thread about this very thing I think your thread is worthwhile, I just don't think ECT has much to offer anyone.
 
imo, ECT is barbarism comparable to an ice-pick lobotomy.

There`s no proof that conventional depression treatments will make things worse in MDMA-induced depression (if you can cite credible sources on that, I`ll retract my statement - you claim to be an expert on this subject, so it shouldn`t be difficult for you). There are plenty of new antidepressants in clinical trials waiting to come out on the market, as well as all sorts of cognitive behavioral therapies out there that you likely haven`t tried. Exhaust all of those before trying ECT. ECT is like trying to kill a spider by setting the house on fire.
 
imo, ECT is barbarism comparable to an ice-pick lobotomy.

There`s no proof that conventional depression treatments will make things worse in MDMA-induced depression (if you can cite credible sources on that, I`ll retract my statement - you claim to be an expert on this subject, so it shouldn`t be difficult for you). There are plenty of new antidepressants in clinical trials waiting to come out on the market, as well as all sorts of cognitive behavioral therapies out there that you likely haven`t tried. Exhaust all of those before trying ECT. ECT is like trying to kill a spider by setting the house on fire.

Sigh, your mostly wrong here.
 
I don't see how much value ECT has for anyone. If you think your memory is bad now you should read some of the reports about people who have undergone ECT.

I would think of trying out psychedelics (specifically mushrooms or LSD, not stuff like MDA, 2c's, DOx, etc) before I would ECT....



Unless he can link you a previous thread about this very thing I think your thread is worthwhile, I just don't think ECT has much to offer anyone.

I had a thread on it, but i went through and deleted most of my posts so it might be gone now. What I really meant is that the topic he's asking about is something very few people know anything about so it would be pointless to ask 99.999 percent of people.

ECT does have a special effect on MDMA induced depression, but in general I agree with you that it is pretty useless and barbaric. However, conventional antidepressants wont work and there is evidence of this published and anecdotal. Of course nothing is 100% certain and they COULD work its just not likely.

I have talked to several ECT doctors personally about this topic along with countless neurologists. I have also done 3 years of my own research. Its easy to have it turn into an obsession if you have experienced it yourself.
 
Sigh, your mostly wrong here.

Well, you neglected to explain why, along with my request for sources, so your point is moot.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything; I appreciate your passion for the subject. If this idea had merit, though, there would be published data on the subject. Three years of original research doesn't mean anything to us on this forum unless you have evidence to back it up. And having unverified data to entice people to try ECT, a dangerous therapy that might not even be necessary, is very nearly the opposite of harm reduction.
 
Well, you neglected to explain why, along with my request for sources, so your point is moot.

If we are asking for sources of claims How about some legitimate sources for you claim that it is "barbarism comparable to an ice-pick lobotomy"?
 
If we are asking for sources of claims How about some legitimate sources for you claim that it is "barbarism comparable to an ice-pick lobotomy"?

Well, perhaps that was knee-jerk hyperbole on my part, I'll admit.
My main point still stands, though.

The dangers of ECT are well documented; the risks are well known. Unless the OP has exhausted all other benign therapies for his depression, I can't agree that he should just try ECT, without any evidence to back up the idea that ECT is the only therapy that will work for him. He risks permanent neurological damage with ECT. This is well documented.

To suggest someone try ECT without hardcore evidence to back it up is the opposite of the purpose of Bluelight: harm reduction. Having been on the moderation team in the past, I can't in good faith support the claims made in this thread about ECT being the only solution for MDMA-invoked depression. I will retract my statement once proof is posted.

Again, I'm not trying to cause a fight here. I'm playing it safe in consistency with the tenets behind our beloved website. I hope bben can help us out and post some of this well-documented material; if this is truly a godsend for those with this type of depression, then, by all means, educate us! But use good sources. Original research doesn't mean much to people across the interwebs.
 
I'm no espouser of ECT, by the way, but to rule it out completely is to rule out something that does work for some, though I've not looked for anything about it more than some reports from people with up to having ECT untreatable depression. and obviously people's testimonies are not particularly scientific, though the fact ECT is still available as a treatment while in general lobotomies are not says something for it's efficacy.

certainly the OP should look for and try other solutions first.
 
i'm in a bit of a similar situation. i took about 400-500mg of mdma three months ago and I've been dealing with some rough depression ever since. My reaction seems strange since many people do much more than this (though I'm not justifying that usage). Bben, admittedly, I've spent a lot of time trolling forums and I've seen your posts a lot. I've always been curious how much mdma did you do to cause your problems?
 
Has anyone in these forums actually undergone ECT for MDMA depression. I'm surprised no actual personal accounts have shown up.

Also, TMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation) seems like a safer alternative, though it's efficacy is not so established. The only commercial provider I know if is NeuroStar. Centers seem to charge around $400 per treatment, and I believe a treatment course can run upwards of $8-10K (!)
 
mdma induced depression just like amphetamine induced depression will get better with time IME.

i have taken whole grams as well before in long binges.

the best antidepressant for mdma induced depression for me was tramadol
 
ECT for XTC wut u know. Apparently some people do have success with SEVERE depression for a while after ECT thats all I know. I watched a thing on youtube that had a guy talk about how it saved his life b/c he was presented with the choice lobotomy or ECT for what he believed was severe depression causing him to constantly look for coincidences all the time~
 
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