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Election 2007.

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I think Communism has done much more harm to the world than Democracy has.

Forget about earning money, under Communism there is no capacity for the individual to be an individual.

I read a great book (fiction) by Ursula Le Guin titled The Dispossessed in which there is a Communist society on a moon and a citizen has to visit the planet where the people are capitalists. I realised then that the only way a Communist society can work is that if every individual is committed to that one same cause. And there lies the flaw....you can't rule a country in such a way because you can't guarantee that everyone will feel the same. And to "rule" is contradictory to the ideal in itself. Thats why Communism breeds dictators...they somehow seize power in a time when people need the ideal of equality.

Anyway - I could be wildly misinformed...I've not studied Marx or anything like that, this is only from what I see around me and what my experience of a Communist country has taught me.

EDIT: lostpunk - then who has the power of bestowing on someone the role of "giver"? That gives more power to one individual than the others and breaks the harmony that should exist when all people are "equal". It gives one person an incredible amount of power (how can you be sure that you know what everyone needs???), and because some people are opportunists this opens the door wide for someone to abuse that power. Hence the creation of the dictator.
 
lostpunk5545 said:
In a true communist society people are given the things they need without having to buy them.
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Can you imagine life with only the bare essentials? Fuck that for a joke.
 
Hey kittymeow - "The Dispossessed" is about an anarchist society.

And I still don't get how anyone could have significantly different political beliefs from their partner. Parents - yes; partner - no...

But then again I'm one of those tossers who thinks every action entails a political stance ;)
 
ayjay said:
And I still don't get how anyone could have significantly different political beliefs from their partner. Parents - yes; partner - no...

But then again I'm one of those tossers who thinks every action entails a political stance ;)
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You should live in my house then :\

My wife is left wing Labour supporter, believes every worker has the right to a ciggie break and a share of the boss's profits.

Too bad she lives a capitalists dream with me supporting her and the kids, allowing 12weeks holiday a year. I love being able to dismiss someone if they are costing my buisiness money. Fuck off giving someone a warning if they miss up and cost me $3000. Then a written warining the next time they do it again. Oh well $10000 later I can finally give them a 3rd warning and sack them. Don't laugh, that is why the IR laws were changed. No to be greedy but to eliminate workers who just want to take the piss.I reward them when they work hard, I let them take time off when their kids are sick, but I am the one who has taken the risk to start this buisiness so surely I shouldn't be ashamed to reap the million dollar rewards. If I am not a good boss, I won't find employees. As it is I have people calling me for a job. My clients appreciate the loving vibe from my employees and come in droves.

Me, I usually vote Green, mainly because I don't see any party meeting my ideal. I guesss you can call it a donkey vote, but to be honest, I live in Kevin Rudds electorate, do you honestly think my vote plays any role in this election? Don't give me "every vote counts" crap. Only a handful of marginal voters in a dozen electorates will decide who becomes pm. I wish we could separate voting for who leads the country and who will represent me in parliment. Big Kev doesn't give a shit if I want a new ferry terminal. He just wants to appease the lowest common denominator with tax cuts and a free pram. I don't care if petrol is $1 or $2.50/l, it won't stop me buying a carton of premium beer this Friday. If anything it should be higher to pay for the environmental damage the car creates. Europeans seem to survive paying above $2.

But even the Greens have too many policies that I can't agree with.

Where is the Busty St Clare Party? A party for hard working, millionaires that have a social conscience, who do not believe that economic growth should take a front seat to environmental damage. I don't believe in socialism, it does not reward hard work. I don't believe in outright capitalism, continued growth will only benifit a few. Maybe cap personal wealth at say $10-20million. More than enough to live comfortably (and never work again if you wish). Any profits after this should be funnelled back to society. Not back to welfare as such, too many dole bludges for a start. But direct these funds to research to help the poor, the sick, the environment. Surely enough resources exist for everyone on the planet ( as long as we don't encourage people to breed like rabbits. thats just being greedy Mr Pope;) ). Ask any truely wealthy ($100mill +) and they will tell you there is not a lot of difference after $10mill. Their continued wealth is only being driven by shareholders. House, couple of cares, the ability to pay for the best medical care when their body starts to fail, a human doesn't need much more than this. Well perhaps a micro brew system on tap and a Kabana girl/boy to scoop the pool and when the sun goes down to rip a savage groove on the bongos while you sip on barcadi and juice, nodding your head as the pupils dilate.8o

I am just a simple man after all.............
 
ayjay said:
Hey kittymeow - "The Dispossessed" is about an anarchist society.

And I still don't get how anyone could have significantly different political beliefs from their partner. Parents - yes; partner - no...

But then again I'm one of those tossers who thinks every action entails a political stance ;)
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The difference is arguable. According to Wiki I would put my recollections of the book under "anarchist communism".

They are all the same idea when you boil it down so I wont get into specifics...I was only trying to make a correlation between my experience and what I thought of upon reading the book.
Much the same way 1984 isn't specifically about Communism either, but there are some awfully scary similarities to what Romania was like under Communist rule.

As for having the same political views as my partner - he's a Kiwi (shuddup ;) ) so he doesn't have to vote and hence we don't really talk about politics much.
 
I don't think anyone can deny that Communism is a bit idealistic. However, I do believe that there are some "truths" in life that are universal and therefore stand aside from individual perceptions. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe more in the Marxist/Communist ideal then the Capitalist one.

As for the election, I AM NOT GOING TO BE IN THE COUNTRY. Which means that I'm going to have to vote early. Which means I’m really pushing the boundaries of my organisational skillz.
 
kittymeow said:
The difference is arguable. According to Wiki I would put my recollections of the book under "anarchist communism".

They are all the same idea when you boil it down so I wont get into specifics...I was only trying to make a correlation between my experience and what I thought of upon reading the book.
Much the same way 1984 isn't specifically about Communism either, but there are some awfully scary similarities to what Romania was like under Communist rule.

As for having the same political views as my partner - he's a Kiwi (shuddup ;) ) so he doesn't have to vote and hence we don't really talk about politics much.
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Most anarchists and communists would be very upset to be told that they were "all the same" ;)

Funnily enough, the original title for "1984" was "1948". When Orwell wrote it in 1947, he was making a statement about living in England at the time. As far as scary similarities, I'm much more scared with the similarities between the book and present day Australia - permanent war, pervasive surveillance, doublespeak and thought crime are all significant aspects of the current social and political landscape in little Johnny's Oz.

And politics is more than voting rights - that would mean that anyone under 18 is incapable of having political beliefs, or important conversations about those beliefs..

And finally - let's get away from the false dichotomy "communism or capitalism". There are an infinite number of ways to organise society %)
 

Senator On-Line is Australia's only Internet based democratic political party.

Senator On-Line is not aligned to any other political party… it is neither Liberal nor Labor.

Senator On-Line (‘SOL’) is a truly democratic party which will allow everyone on the Australian Electoral roll who has access to the internet to vote on every Bill put to Parliament and have its Senators vote in accordance with a clear majority view.

We will be running candidates for the upcoming federal Upper House (Senate) elections.

When a SOL senator is elected a web site will be developed which will provide:

* Accurate information and balanced argument on each Bill and important issues.

* The vast majority of those registered on the Australian Electoral roll the chance to have their say by voting on bills and issues facing our country.

* A tally of all votes which will then count in Parliament.

Each person on the Australian Electoral roll will be entitled to one vote and only be allowed to vote once on each bill or issue.

SOL senators will have committed in writing to voting in line with the clear majority view of the SOL on-line voters.

Senator On-Line will enable broader community involvement in the political process and the shaping of our country.

If you like the concept, please register your details and tell others about SOL.
This is the pre-election website. To find out what will be available when SOL wins a Senate seat click here.
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http://senatoronline.com.au/
 
ayjay said:
Most anarchists and communists would be very upset to be told that they were "all the same" ;)

Funnily enough, the original title for "1984" was "1948". When Orwell wrote it in 1947, he was making a statement about living in England at the time. As far as scary similarities, I'm much more scared with the similarities between the book and present day Australia - permanent war, pervasive surveillance, doublespeak and thought crime are all significant aspects of the current social and political landscape in little Johnny's Oz.

And politics is more than voting rights - that would mean that anyone under 18 is incapable of having political beliefs, or important conversations about those beliefs..

And finally - let's get away from the false dichotomy "communism or capitalism". There are an infinite number of ways to organise society %)
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You've got to be joking? Comparing Australia to 1984!
I'm sorry but I don't feel in any way restricted or confined in my thoughts and actions living in Australia.

I don't think you fully understand the destruction such an "ideal" can produce.

The way I see this "false" dichotomy is not in specific written out plans of how a society should be run. And I didn't say that anarchism and communism are the same - I said that their essence is much the same.
People are polarised in their core view of how life should be. There is the communist/socialist/anarchist ideal that we must all help each other and all have the same things and same ideals. And there is the opposite, which is the libertarian/liberal/capitalist ideal which promotes the individual and the individual's rights. You ask someone how they feel the world should be and their answer will more than likely fall into one of those two categories.

To me, I simply can't comprehend how we could ever be the same. Or want the same things. I can't comprehend that someone should have the right to tell me what I want and what I need. And this is why I can't see the comparison between Australia and 1984. Sure, this country isn't perfect (and welfare is probably one of the things we do need to work on) - but if I want to do something - buy a house, go to uni - NOT buy a house, NOT go to uni - I can do it. And if I'm one of the unfortunate minority that don't get a fair go in most places, at least I don't have to try and escape the country to get that.
Anyway, thats my opinion - There is still no other country I'd live in...I just hope the "left" don't gain too much power around here. :|
 
Chronik Fatigue said:
http://senatoronline.com.au/
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... and the people who run the country will be people who feel the desperate desire to express their opinions as much as possible

Think very carefully about the personality of every person you've ever met who is insanely passionate about trivial matters but doesnt have the wherewithal to do butt-fuckall about it but vote continuously on the internet

They are fun to keep as pets but ffs dont give them power over a balanced but apathetic populous
 
kittymeow said:
People are polarised in their core view of how life should be. There is the communist/socialist/anarchist ideal that we must all help each other and all have the same things and same ideals. And there is the opposite, which is the libertarian/liberal/capitalist ideal which promotes the individual and the individual's rights. You ask someone how they feel the world should be and their answer will more than likely fall into one of those two categories.
Click to expand...

I think there would be a few libertarians (from the small 'l' european usage of the word) would be a bit miffed you're lumping them with capitalism and liberalism, not to mention the free market anarchists who would be most miffed at being lumped with communists and socialists ;)

I think this is a better way of looking at the spectrum:

bothaxes.gif


axeswithnames.gif


Take the test- see where you fall on the Political Compass
 
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^even 2 dimensions is better than 1!! This reminds me of a similar graph in Principia Discordia - one axis is negative/positive, the other is Eristic/anti-Eristic...

...I'd like to think of politics as an N dimensional space ;)

... And Australia is the greatest little place to live - but don't think that will always be the case. We need to be vigilant to protect our freedoms.
 
I've done that test before and would you be surprised to know that I'm in the Libertarian Right?

What I'm trying to explain is that you either feel for society or you feel for the individual. I can't really bring economics into it because I don't know much about it.

My point being that its insane to compare Australia to 1984. And that no one has the right to tell me what I "need". Which I've said before. ;-)
 
ayjay said:
^even 2 dimensions is better than 1!! This reminds me of a similar graph in Principia Discordia - one axis is negative/positive, the other is Eristic/anti-Eristic...
Click to expand...

Can you see the fnord's?
 
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You know my granma doesnt have to vote. There is a age limit where you dont legally have to anymore. She is going to anyway ;)

:D
 
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