rules
Bluelighter
good luck. just remember, the hardest part is what happens after you kick. trying to not convince yourself that it's a good idea to get high for any reason whatsoever.
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OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | Tryptamino
Opioids Efficiency of "cold turkey"
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Efficient
ef·fi·cient :Achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense.
Even if the same number of people get clean by tapering as they do by going cold turkey, cold turkey would be more efficient since it takes less resources to achieve. If you really want to get clean you are going to do so regardless of the method, therefore cold turkey would be the more efficient of the two since it is less expensive and you are not wasting effort by doing a 3 month taper or something.
Also, a lot of people plan on tapering but end up using on top of their suboxone or methadone, until they say fuck it and just go cold turkey, so it would have been a lot more efficient for them if they had just gone cold turkey.
Tapering may be a little more effective, but that doesn't make it more efficient.
This proves my point. If the hardest part is what happens after you kick, then the actual act of kicking is less relevant.
rules
Bluelighter
you know what? you're right. i should have made the title of the thread different...
It's definitely easier to quit by tapering, but if you decide not to taper or don't have the resources to do so, then you are in the same boat after you are done with withdrawals, whether you quit CT or tapered. These days more people quit by tapering, but that doesn't make it better than quitting cold turkey in a sense that once get past the first week, it doesn't matter how you did it. So if you are stuck going CT then it isn't going to make you more likely to relapse than the person that tapered, as long as both groups make it through acute withdrawals.
If the question was is it easier to quit CT or by tapering, then tapering is the obvious answer. A lot of people don't make it through initial withdrawals CT because they can't take it and end up using to make the withdrawals go away. But for the people that make it through, it's more efficient to have done so CT. Since it seems like we are talking about staying clean for the long run, then it's rather irrelevant how you quit to begin with, and that's why CT is more efficient, since the end result is the same yet it's cheaper to achieve it.
If the question was is it easier to quit CT or by tapering, then tapering is the obvious answer. A lot of people don't make it through initial withdrawals CT because they can't take it and end up using to make the withdrawals go away. But for the people that make it through, it's more efficient to have done so CT. Since it seems like we are talking about staying clean for the long run, then it's rather irrelevant how you quit to begin with, and that's why CT is more efficient, since the end result is the same yet it's cheaper to achieve it.
hearty_opi
Bluelighter
Well I'm going to attempt a CT kick sunday since I'll have the next 3 days off from work so I'll let you all know how it works out... I'll be starting my own thread about it soon. It's gonna suck but it's time! A lot easier said than done while I'm still happy n high... lol
80mg
Bluelighter
Cod turkey doesn't sound so good, but I guess it's a new twist on surf and turf.
What about the dudes going "tapering is the best way" that are still getting high as hell?
My periods of 6 months clean after going cold turkey > My periods of 6 days clean after tapering, and honestly after getting that far it's hard to say that the way I quit had anything to do with my relapse.
The only people that I know that are still clean and have multiple years clean have quit cold turkey. When a lot of people get to the end of the road with their addiction and finally surrender they usually don't have the resources to taper.
Some people know people that are still clean after quitting years ago by tapering, while others know people that have done it cold turkey, and others know some people that did it cold turkey, and others that did it by tapering.
People quit all different ways, so whatever works for that person was most efficient for them. I'm not saying that one way is better than the other, but to say that cold turkey never works or that it isn't efficient is wrong.
Lol. Well there's sort of a differnece. I'll use myself as example.
On suboxone, occasionally get high. I just quit banging to stop being a human pin cushion. That's honestly all I was trying to do. But if you go "cold turkey" your saying you don't want to do drugs. Unless it's a tolerance break.
Best of luck!
Agree.
tricomb
Bluelight Crew
what point is that? I was just sharing my experience, that CT is the most effective way to quit. You actually feel the pain and suffering and it's a fucking learning experience, what you learn from it is what matters. If what you learn is "I need more opiates to stop this" then you haven't learned anything, you have to have to try to have the right mindset when WDing, you have to push past the opiate cravings and actually look at your situation from another perspective.
Also, I'm a CPP so being completely off opiates is not an option, if I want to live a functional life, be able to go to school and work, then I'm going to need my medication.
80mg
Bluelighter
Thep oint is JUST as I wrote.
IF YOU GO COLD TURKEY YOUR OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO STOP USING DRUGS. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF COLD TURKEY AS IN THE WEBSTER ENGLISH DICTIONARY THAT I AM AWARE OF. YES. IT'S AN ACTUAL PHRASE SUCH AS BLING IS AN ACTUAL WORD.
So if you, went cold turkey...and are now using drugs again. Then obviously you failed to continue what you set out to do.
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IF YOU GO COLD TURKEY YOUR OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO STOP USING DRUGS. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF COLD TURKEY AS IN THE WEBSTER ENGLISH DICTIONARY THAT I AM AWARE OF. YES. IT'S AN ACTUAL PHRASE SUCH AS BLING IS AN ACTUAL WORD.
So if you, went cold turkey...and are now using drugs again. Then obviously you failed to continue what you set out to do.
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tricomb
Bluelight Crew
LOL, wow.. Try not to derail this thread.
If you have issues with me you can message me. You don't have to treat me any differently for being a moderator, moderators are members too, who volunteer their time here. You need to treat everyone on Bluelight with the same respect as you would a moderator.
What you wrote in caps made absolutely no sense to me. I'm not trolling you, I just respond to your shit. You post a lot of offensive or provocative things and expect people not to respond? By posting shit, you're asking to be "trolled". It's not trolling, read the context.
Cold turkey is IMO the best way to quit, like swimming said, if you're ready.
I was clean off opiates and then was hit by a drunk driver going 35 mph. I didn't "relapse", my life changed and I actually needed the drugs I had abused for years.
If you have issues with me you can message me. You don't have to treat me any differently for being a moderator, moderators are members too, who volunteer their time here. You need to treat everyone on Bluelight with the same respect as you would a moderator.
What you wrote in caps made absolutely no sense to me. I'm not trolling you, I just respond to your shit. You post a lot of offensive or provocative things and expect people not to respond? By posting shit, you're asking to be "trolled". It's not trolling, read the context.
Cold turkey is IMO the best way to quit, like swimming said, if you're ready.
I was clean off opiates and then was hit by a drunk driver going 35 mph. I didn't "relapse", my life changed and I actually needed the drugs I had abused for years.
Swimmingdancer
Bluelight Crew
Hmm, it seems that some of us are making different assumptions about the nature of the original question. When the OP asked "how many of you have quit doing an opiate or an opioid cold turkey, gotten through withdrawals, and NEVER relapsed?" I assumed that they meant how many people out of those who use opiates were able to do all of those things, not just how many people out of those who make it through cold turkey and completely out of WDs never relapse. Because there are a shit-ton of people who don't even make it to the end of WDs before they start using again. I would consider those as counting as failed attempts at cold turkey quitting too. I dunno, maybe I misunderstood.
Also I don't recall anyone saying that cold turkey NEVER works, just that it is rare. And what of the people who are able to quit using heroin by switching to bupe or methadone? Do they not count as quitting simply because they are still taking a medication, even if it doesn't get them at all high and it was still extremely difficult to stop using heroin (or their DOC)? There are so many different issues here and the question or issue at hand seems to be getting very polarized, like we have to choose between either "cold turkey never ever works" or "cold turkey is the best method of quitting in existence". Neither of those are true.
As far as the statistics go, using ibogaine or ayahuasca to quit opiates seems to be the most effective.
Also I don't recall anyone saying that cold turkey NEVER works, just that it is rare. And what of the people who are able to quit using heroin by switching to bupe or methadone? Do they not count as quitting simply because they are still taking a medication, even if it doesn't get them at all high and it was still extremely difficult to stop using heroin (or their DOC)? There are so many different issues here and the question or issue at hand seems to be getting very polarized, like we have to choose between either "cold turkey never ever works" or "cold turkey is the best method of quitting in existence". Neither of those are true.
As far as the statistics go, using ibogaine or ayahuasca to quit opiates seems to be the most effective.
tricomb
Bluelight Crew
FTR, I said CT was the most effective for me in my experience, not that its the best method in existence.
BiggDirty01
Bluelighter
@Tricomb
I kind of think that the very first time, after addiction has commenced, that withdrawal occurs either voluntarily or not that that first withdrawal experience is really the only CT event that can produce sustained sobriety. After that hasn't worked, to me, subsequent withdrawals or detoxes become less and less valuable as a learning experience to help steer someone away from a long term addiction.
After you've been through it more than once withdrawals seem less like the inspiring force to change one's ways and more like an experience that pushes the addict right back to using, especially if prolonged guilt (about one's addict life) becomes a huge motivation to do whatever it will take to avoid withdrawal.
Unfortunately I think the general sophistication here on BL, between the quality of writing to the integrity of the mods, may cloud or overstate the thinking/nature on the streets or perhaps disconnected from the modern world.
Sorry for rambling but I find this topic very intriguing
I kind of think that the very first time, after addiction has commenced, that withdrawal occurs either voluntarily or not that that first withdrawal experience is really the only CT event that can produce sustained sobriety. After that hasn't worked, to me, subsequent withdrawals or detoxes become less and less valuable as a learning experience to help steer someone away from a long term addiction.
After you've been through it more than once withdrawals seem less like the inspiring force to change one's ways and more like an experience that pushes the addict right back to using, especially if prolonged guilt (about one's addict life) becomes a huge motivation to do whatever it will take to avoid withdrawal.
Unfortunately I think the general sophistication here on BL, between the quality of writing to the integrity of the mods, may cloud or overstate the thinking/nature on the streets or perhaps disconnected from the modern world.
Sorry for rambling but I find this topic very intriguing
tricomb
Bluelight Crew
I think that's a very interesting perspective! I don't understand what you were saying with the bluelight part though.
Swimmingdancer
Bluelight Crew
Wasn't really referring to you personally, but you did say "Best way to get off full agonists is cold turkey". Anyway, I didn't mean that anyone said either of the statements word for word, I was just using hyperbole to try to explain the direction the thread appeared to be going with the polarization of standpoints. Some people were starting making really broad generalizations. When I was reading comments like:
- "it's unfair to say you can't quit going off through cold turkey" (which is true - but I thought that most us were saying it is very difficult to quit CT, not that it's impossible)
- "all you dudes going "cold turkey is the best way" yet you guys tried it...still getting high as hell"
- "to say that cold turkey never works or that it isn't efficient is wrong" (again, I agree with the first part of this statement, but to say it may not have the best success rates is different from saying it never works)
- "you're saying it's efficient? that's just plain wrong"
- "CT is the most effective way to quit"
- "CT is the most efficient way to quit"
- "Cold turkey is IMO the best way to quit"
- "no one quits cold turkey" (which in retrospect is probably what some of the others were responding to)
I just thought why does it have to be one or the other? It's not a black and white issue. That's all. Regardless, it's probably not something we will ever come to any agreement on, as there is no "best" or "most efficient" way to quit opiates, it's different for everyone and there are so many other factors and variables. It's freakin' hard no matter what you do!
Plus the initial question is kind of unclear and it seems like we were all interpreting it differently.
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tricomb
Bluelight Crew
Oh, I meant to write that its the best method in my experience, my bad
Swimmingdancer
Bluelight Crew
Oh, I meant to write that its the best method in my experience, my bad
No worries
I wasn't trying to target you personally. It happens so frequently that people make a statement which sounds like they are saying it is fact rather than personal opinion or individualistic experience. I know it's easy to do without really realizing. I always try to remember to say "for me" or "others may be completely different though" or something. I was just trying to either bring the thread back to an intellectual discussion or else admit that we'll never agree on this issue and that the most important thing regarding quitting is being truly ready.
tricomb
Bluelight Crew
yeah I used to write YMMV (your mileage may vary) on my posts when saying stuff like that, I should start doing that again.
BiggDirty01
Bluelighter
I guess my feeling is that the vast majority of drug users are misinformed, unsafe and don't understand the consequences of using each substance. If you are here on BL you are in the minority in being educated in harm reduction and maintaining a sophisticated addiction. The people 'out there' are flying by the seat of their pants while it seems to me that the most of us use drugs or our pain medications in a much more responsible fashion.
People, we are so lucky to have a resource such as this. I know when I found BL in 2008 it changed my life for the better (cwe's on norco/percocet, opiate potentiation and bioavailabilty etc etc) and made managing my lifestyle less of a game of Russian roulette.
tricomb
Bluelight Crew
Oh yeah I totally agree with you on every point of that.