http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-thought--taking-just-cause-brain-damage.html
Got to love the daily mail...........
Got to love the daily mail...........
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MDMA &
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MDMA Moderators: Esperighanto
"Ecstasy tablets are far more harmful than previously thought"
- Thread starter Cz_x
- Start date
wasn't there a study which took into account the lifestyle of ecstasy takers (staying up dancing all night going to raves etc.) and cannabis smoking and found out that if you take these factors into account MDMA doesn't actually impair memory.
also
goes kind of against the headline.
also
goes kind of against the headline.
First Bad Comedown
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2010
- Messages
- 562
I have also heard that the Daily Mail is completely shit for news.
Regardless of this there is substantial and long-term studies that have demonstrated, repeatedly, that MDMA users eventually display a loss of cognitive performance. Especially when measured with delayed-verbal recall.
Five words are given to be memorized and the subject is tested quickly.
The real test comes after a period of time - five minutes or so of other conversation.
Most people can easily recall ALL five words, but MDMA users frequently score lower than controls.
This effect takes TIME so set it, by the way.
Even those experiencing negative psychological symptoms tend to perform well on such cognitive tests for a time.
It is around one year of abstinence that many begin to demonstrate the cognitive decline.
And studies have followed such for up to 2.5 years and found that the cognitive and verbal deficits do NOT seem to improve.
So if it takes a YEAR to show up, but doesn't improve within another year and a half...
What does this mean?
This simply backs up the primary theory - that MDMA is rewiring the brain.
The frontal lobes and prefrontal cortex are well known to reinnervate VERY slowly in animal studies of MDMA toxicity.
And the 'lasting reorganization of the ascending axonal structure' seems to correlate with a deterioration of language, memory, executive function...
Here is an amazing finding - many MDMA users cannot tell that it is even happening.
Even in an extreme example, "the man who took 7,000 pills", after seven years of abstinence he reported to doctors for help with medical problems including 'tightness in his neck'.
The doctors discovered that he also showed severe short-term memory deficits, that he was not aware of.
They reported this as one of the most striking aspects of his cognitive function - that he was NOT aware of the problem.
And this is an extreme example.
For myself, my memory and analytical ability seemed to be enhanced at first.
It was as if the extreme anxiety and suffering I experienced in the first 6 months post serotonin syndrome fueled my higher brain to exert itself. I could not stop myself from reading, analyzing, and writing.
I guess I hoped that trying as hard as I could to use my language skills, to read and write especially, could somehow prevent what I knew was going on....the slow and steady destruction of the mind.
Believe me when I tell you - even after a near-death experience with serotonin syndrome and a powerful and all-consuming depression and anxiety that literally ripped me apart one piece at a time...
The cognitive decline took a YEAR to set in.
Around month 13-14 I knew it was happening, because reading and writing suddenly required a huge effort to focus on.
By month 16 I knew that a serious change had occurred - one that could not be reversed.
I felt like I had aged a decade, at least, in a period of a year!
Now at nearly a year and nine months of 'recovery' I can really say that the scientific assertion of memory and language deficits from MDMA use are absolutely TRUE.
There is no debate here.
It is settled.
The study in question right now actually followed the same people before and after their use - as to eliminate one big confounding factor.
And the other study that controlled for 'club' and lifestyle factors ALSO found cognitive decline among the users.
Although it was 'subtle' for sure.
Even if you don't drink much alcohol and you smoke cannabis rarely...
Even if you don't dance at clubs all night subjecting yourself to dehydration and insomnia...
Even if you only take MDMA 'moderately'...
And even if the author of the study writes the paper in an effort to minimize the damaging effects of MDMA by controlling for all these factors...
Even then a cognitive change will be evident.
Period.
This is not 'propaganda'.
And such a suspicion is pretty immature.
Too much research has agreed with this finding to be dismissed.
You love doing MDMA, I understand.
I loved it too.
But it changed me, cognitively, in ways that I may never fully recover.
I lost more brain cells than I care to count during 'recovery'.
It is not during MDMA use that cognitive damage occurs.
It is after.
You will not believe it until it happens to you.
And even then you may not recognize it.
Just like dementia...
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=8203
Conclusion - " In a study designed to minimize limitations found in many prior investigations, we failed to demonstrate marked residual cognitive effects in ecstasy users. This finding contrasts with many previous findings-including our own-and emphasizes the need for continued caution in interpreting field studies of cognitive function in illicit ecstasy users. "
we failed to demonstrate MARKED...
meaning they DID find SOME cognitive changes that MIGHT be similar to onset of dimentia.
contrasts with MANY previous findings - INCLUDING OUR OWN - and EMPHASIZES the NEED for continued CAUTION...
Do you hear what your favorite psychedelic Professor is telling you?
Are you listening?
A more pro-psychedelic advocate among drug researchers hardly exists!
And Halpern clearly demonstrates some cognitive decline among this 'control' group that minimizes confounding factors.
MDMA changes the higher brain.
Big surprise!
Check out some of the response papers if you care to really analyze the situation.
Rather than just labeling an article by the Daily News worthless...
I hope someone is listening.
FBC
Regardless of this there is substantial and long-term studies that have demonstrated, repeatedly, that MDMA users eventually display a loss of cognitive performance. Especially when measured with delayed-verbal recall.
Five words are given to be memorized and the subject is tested quickly.
The real test comes after a period of time - five minutes or so of other conversation.
Most people can easily recall ALL five words, but MDMA users frequently score lower than controls.
This effect takes TIME so set it, by the way.
Even those experiencing negative psychological symptoms tend to perform well on such cognitive tests for a time.
It is around one year of abstinence that many begin to demonstrate the cognitive decline.
And studies have followed such for up to 2.5 years and found that the cognitive and verbal deficits do NOT seem to improve.
So if it takes a YEAR to show up, but doesn't improve within another year and a half...
What does this mean?
This simply backs up the primary theory - that MDMA is rewiring the brain.
The frontal lobes and prefrontal cortex are well known to reinnervate VERY slowly in animal studies of MDMA toxicity.
And the 'lasting reorganization of the ascending axonal structure' seems to correlate with a deterioration of language, memory, executive function...
Here is an amazing finding - many MDMA users cannot tell that it is even happening.
Even in an extreme example, "the man who took 7,000 pills", after seven years of abstinence he reported to doctors for help with medical problems including 'tightness in his neck'.
The doctors discovered that he also showed severe short-term memory deficits, that he was not aware of.
They reported this as one of the most striking aspects of his cognitive function - that he was NOT aware of the problem.
And this is an extreme example.
For myself, my memory and analytical ability seemed to be enhanced at first.
It was as if the extreme anxiety and suffering I experienced in the first 6 months post serotonin syndrome fueled my higher brain to exert itself. I could not stop myself from reading, analyzing, and writing.
I guess I hoped that trying as hard as I could to use my language skills, to read and write especially, could somehow prevent what I knew was going on....the slow and steady destruction of the mind.
Believe me when I tell you - even after a near-death experience with serotonin syndrome and a powerful and all-consuming depression and anxiety that literally ripped me apart one piece at a time...
The cognitive decline took a YEAR to set in.
Around month 13-14 I knew it was happening, because reading and writing suddenly required a huge effort to focus on.
By month 16 I knew that a serious change had occurred - one that could not be reversed.
I felt like I had aged a decade, at least, in a period of a year!
Now at nearly a year and nine months of 'recovery' I can really say that the scientific assertion of memory and language deficits from MDMA use are absolutely TRUE.
There is no debate here.
It is settled.
The study in question right now actually followed the same people before and after their use - as to eliminate one big confounding factor.
And the other study that controlled for 'club' and lifestyle factors ALSO found cognitive decline among the users.
Although it was 'subtle' for sure.
Even if you don't drink much alcohol and you smoke cannabis rarely...
Even if you don't dance at clubs all night subjecting yourself to dehydration and insomnia...
Even if you only take MDMA 'moderately'...
And even if the author of the study writes the paper in an effort to minimize the damaging effects of MDMA by controlling for all these factors...
Even then a cognitive change will be evident.
Period.
This is not 'propaganda'.
And such a suspicion is pretty immature.
Too much research has agreed with this finding to be dismissed.
You love doing MDMA, I understand.
I loved it too.
But it changed me, cognitively, in ways that I may never fully recover.
I lost more brain cells than I care to count during 'recovery'.
It is not during MDMA use that cognitive damage occurs.
It is after.
You will not believe it until it happens to you.
And even then you may not recognize it.
Just like dementia...
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=8203
Conclusion - " In a study designed to minimize limitations found in many prior investigations, we failed to demonstrate marked residual cognitive effects in ecstasy users. This finding contrasts with many previous findings-including our own-and emphasizes the need for continued caution in interpreting field studies of cognitive function in illicit ecstasy users. "
we failed to demonstrate MARKED...
meaning they DID find SOME cognitive changes that MIGHT be similar to onset of dimentia.
contrasts with MANY previous findings - INCLUDING OUR OWN - and EMPHASIZES the NEED for continued CAUTION...
Do you hear what your favorite psychedelic Professor is telling you?
Are you listening?
A more pro-psychedelic advocate among drug researchers hardly exists!
And Halpern clearly demonstrates some cognitive decline among this 'control' group that minimizes confounding factors.
MDMA changes the higher brain.
Big surprise!
Check out some of the response papers if you care to really analyze the situation.
Rather than just labeling an article by the Daily News worthless...
I hope someone is listening.
FBC
First Bad Comedown
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2010
- Messages
- 562
Oops.
The Daily MAIL, not News.
Perfect example right there!
The old me would have NEVER gotten that detail wrong, even after writing that much.
Spelling mistakes and missing letters can be found in many of my recent posts, also a great departure from my former self.
Gone is the accuracy with which I used to type.
Its like my fingers just don't work the keyboard with precision the same way.
More importantly, my mind doesn't CATCH the mistakes when they do occur!
Its not that I never made mistakes before - its just that I always KNEW when they happened.
Not anymore...
By the way I must concede one thing...
2.5 years of continued deficits does not close the book.
Truly long-term research of abstinent former users is required.
I'm taking decade length follow-up.
To those who may not realize it this is a truly heroic scale.
It is quite difficult to keep track of a large number of patients that long.
But only a VERY long period of 'recovery' may allow for the restoration of the verbal acuity and short-term memory that is CLEARLY deteriorating among MDMA users.
The Daily MAIL, not News.
Perfect example right there!
The old me would have NEVER gotten that detail wrong, even after writing that much.
Spelling mistakes and missing letters can be found in many of my recent posts, also a great departure from my former self.
Gone is the accuracy with which I used to type.
Its like my fingers just don't work the keyboard with precision the same way.
More importantly, my mind doesn't CATCH the mistakes when they do occur!
Its not that I never made mistakes before - its just that I always KNEW when they happened.
Not anymore...
By the way I must concede one thing...
2.5 years of continued deficits does not close the book.
Truly long-term research of abstinent former users is required.
I'm taking decade length follow-up.
To those who may not realize it this is a truly heroic scale.
It is quite difficult to keep track of a large number of patients that long.
But only a VERY long period of 'recovery' may allow for the restoration of the verbal acuity and short-term memory that is CLEARLY deteriorating among MDMA users.
DeathDomokun
Ex-Bluelighter
I don't understand FBC
The cognitive decline as a result of my depression is far worse than the decline you've experienced from MDMA, yet you said you had depression
Now I know that not everyone experiences cognitive degeneration from depression, in fact I didn't until maybe half a year to a year into my depression, but fuck me, I sit here on BL reading about recovered meth addicts who have better cognitive function to me. Taking neurotoxic substances has proved less neuorotoxic to them than existing has to me.
Now, I know this is just an anecdote, but so is your post.
What I'd give to have your cognitive function, something you brought upon yourself through the means of drug (ab)use..
The cognitive decline as a result of my depression is far worse than the decline you've experienced from MDMA, yet you said you had depression
Now I know that not everyone experiences cognitive degeneration from depression, in fact I didn't until maybe half a year to a year into my depression, but fuck me, I sit here on BL reading about recovered meth addicts who have better cognitive function to me. Taking neurotoxic substances has proved less neuorotoxic to them than existing has to me.
Now, I know this is just an anecdote, but so is your post.
What I'd give to have your cognitive function, something you brought upon yourself through the means of drug (ab)use..
How do we know that these users that lost these cognitive skills didn't use other drugs in the meantime to sway the results or have other underlying factors that made the results evident? We don't therefore nobody can prove 100% that mdma caused these deficiency's. Any study can be swayed to prove what u wana prove.
DeathDomokun
Ex-Bluelighter
If the researchers had the means to keep the patients in a house for 10 years with no drugs within that house then you could prove it was from MDMA
Since research into illicit drugs isn't well funded let alone finding patients who will stay inside the same house for 10 years and providing them with food and entertainment is not going to happen
You trust that when the patients tick the the 'No' box to the question 'Have you used any other drugs' they're being honest. You don't know that you're not dreaming, in fact there could be a 1/10 chance you are (see here) but that doesn't mean you stop eating or attempt to fly by jumping off a cliff now, does it?
Since research into illicit drugs isn't well funded let alone finding patients who will stay inside the same house for 10 years and providing them with food and entertainment is not going to happen
You trust that when the patients tick the the 'No' box to the question 'Have you used any other drugs' they're being honest. You don't know that you're not dreaming, in fact there could be a 1/10 chance you are (see here) but that doesn't mean you stop eating or attempt to fly by jumping off a cliff now, does it?
thelastclubkid
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2012
- Messages
- 542
oh.. so as long as we keep rolling then we'll be ok, right?
lol j/k.. i do agree with yanker that these studies (as with many human drug studies) do not take into account that most drug abusers are poly-drug abusers, which leaves too many variables open to draw proper conclusions... this brings back memories of the studies from the 80's that coined the term "crack bables" e.g. babies born with severe mental deficiencies supposedly due to crackk usage by the mother... very effective for pushing new drug policy... what they didnt tell was that the researchers *knew* that most of the crack addicted mothers were also drinking and smoking regularly during their pregnancy and that these alone can cause the same deficiencies in the child...
note that im not saying that MDMA does not cause damage... commons sense dictates that such a powerful drug can not likely be abused regularly without consequences..
Psych0naut
Bluelighter
^^^ On top of that, even in the most liberal countries regarding drugs the education of teens about drugs still sucks major ass. And although this was a bit better in the Netherlands (and maybe some other countries as well) a decade ago, it still sucked a fair bit and is partially to blame for some of the problems MDMA has caused. The general population doesn't know how to limit negative effects from using most drugs nor how to use them responsibly. That's because neither most governments nor it's citizens care much about the well-being of drug users. If this would change and a fact-based, unbiased education about drugs would be given to kids in their pre-teens and early teens, a lot less harm and damage would be caused by drugs in future generations. Just teaching them the following would make a big difference:
- Taking a high dose of anti-oxidants before, during and after MDMA usage. Especially strong anti-oxidants such as Melatonin or Vitamin-C are important.
- Sufficient intake of fluids and electrolytes, but not too much either or they risk water poisoning. A glass of isotonic drinks such as Extran or AA once an hour will do.
- Limiting the possibility of overheating by avoiding hot, crowded areas and especially avoiding dancing for extended periods in hot, crowded areas. And if they do want to dance in hot, crowded areas then at least take a break every now and then to cool off and get some isotonic fluids in. The biggest killer among MDMA users is still overheating by dancing the night away in a hot and humid club or disco with no ventilation and often too little fluid intake.
- Reducing or even preventing serotonergic damage by taking an SSRI 1-2 hours after the MDMA is wearing off. This will help reduce or even prevent the serotonin dip the following days and will also help to restore serotonin levels a lot faster and in combination with strong anti-oxidants has been proven to be a good neuroprotective combination for occasional and responsible MDMA users.
With the proper precautions MDMA is a very safe and harmless drug, unfortunately the general population doesn't know these facts which is largely to blame for the current and past problems people had with MDMA. Of course there are also plenty of people who have been plain irresponcible in their usage and no precautions could have prevented the problems they suffered because of it. But what else do you expect when you take fist fulls of pills every weekend or even daily for some people?
- Taking a high dose of anti-oxidants before, during and after MDMA usage. Especially strong anti-oxidants such as Melatonin or Vitamin-C are important.
- Sufficient intake of fluids and electrolytes, but not too much either or they risk water poisoning. A glass of isotonic drinks such as Extran or AA once an hour will do.
- Limiting the possibility of overheating by avoiding hot, crowded areas and especially avoiding dancing for extended periods in hot, crowded areas. And if they do want to dance in hot, crowded areas then at least take a break every now and then to cool off and get some isotonic fluids in. The biggest killer among MDMA users is still overheating by dancing the night away in a hot and humid club or disco with no ventilation and often too little fluid intake.
- Reducing or even preventing serotonergic damage by taking an SSRI 1-2 hours after the MDMA is wearing off. This will help reduce or even prevent the serotonin dip the following days and will also help to restore serotonin levels a lot faster and in combination with strong anti-oxidants has been proven to be a good neuroprotective combination for occasional and responsible MDMA users.
With the proper precautions MDMA is a very safe and harmless drug, unfortunately the general population doesn't know these facts which is largely to blame for the current and past problems people had with MDMA. Of course there are also plenty of people who have been plain irresponcible in their usage and no precautions could have prevented the problems they suffered because of it. But what else do you expect when you take fist fulls of pills every weekend or even daily for some people?
Darksidesam
Bluelight Crew
As any person new to mdma can see just by reading all these comments,
Look at the extent of the research that people go to just to keep using this drug and to keep themselves happy.
I myself am one of those people, or shall I say that I was. With my high tryptophan diet and neuroprotective aids such as vitamin C and Green tea (L-Theanine), however I think that maybe we shouldn't be using mdma as often.
4 times a Year Maximum i say.
Look at the extent of the research that people go to just to keep using this drug and to keep themselves happy.
I myself am one of those people, or shall I say that I was. With my high tryptophan diet and neuroprotective aids such as vitamin C and Green tea (L-Theanine), however I think that maybe we shouldn't be using mdma as often.
4 times a Year Maximum i say.