ecstasy isn't as dangerous as we think

[stuckinaloop]

Everything that a person who doesnt use drugs will tell you about drugs is mostly lies. Pot doesnt make people crazy, lsd doesnt make insane, and ecstasy certainly isnt that dangerous.

I dunno IMO ecstasy is pretty damn dangerous compared to some other drugs.

Unless you test your pills...you don't know what's in them. So you are might be mixing things you aren't even aware of

You can easily take too much / reach toxic levels if you are not educated

You can easily dehydrate.

Talk to an "e" head vs a oxycontin / heroin addict and see who seems more messed up. I don't even KNOW what would happen if you took e frequently for 30 years lol, I think your brain would be fuckin fried to shit.

 

[CaliFortunate]

Montel I wouldn't care about what your saying because it's your life but with the evidence currently at hand (which even you admit is inconclusive), its absolutely irresponsible and reckless of you to be suggesting things like "MDMA IS less danger than aspirin", especially knowing that people turn to this forum for CREDIBLE information.

Every single weekend from friday to sunday... is it not remotely possible that chronic sleep deprivation over a (very) prolonged period might have messed up their brains instead?

Try not taking any drugs and stay up for three days if you really want to experience what it's like to feel your brain quite literally shutting down.

in this example where we have three factors: MDMA, lack of sleep, and a resulting brain damage, you really identify lack of sleep as the most reasonable explanation? I'm not questioning your decision, I'm questioning your logic. On top of that you can't reasonably assume these people, as a rule, didn't sleep a wink for 3 days out of the week, for years on end. "oh but she said they did"- no, don't dwell on word choice. assuming they got less sleep than the average person, does that really account for the mental problems that struck an entire group of people that shared two similarities, less sleep than most and copious MDMA? Come on man, thats just seeing only what you want to see.

You then say

If they are on meds for anxiety and depression why on earth are they still rolling? I mean, what part of "this isn't good for me" have they failed to grasp? Have you thought about giving them some friendly advice?

One minute ago you say its less harmful than aspirin but now you criticize them for rolling while depressed? What's the harm if they want to roll? i mean all they need is their 8 hours right? if your going to have an argument, atleast stick with it.

...but can anyone (I repeat) explain to me why there haven't been any news reports describing a 'sudden increase' in people checking into hospitals with chronic brain damage (or any damage, for that matter) related to mdma?

I'm sorry but thats just retarded. Brain damage isn't like a broken leg. You don't wake up one morning and go "oh wow my brain feels chronically damaged, i'm gonna go to the hospital". thats not the nature of brain damage. it manifests itself in the form of extreme depression and anxiety, the type of thing you'd find in a therapists office, and the type of thing ALL THESE OTHER BLUELIGHTERS KEEP TELLING YOU. but i mean hey if nobody has checked themselves into the hospital because their brain all the sudden feels damaged, hoping to get some brain un-damaging pills (?) wheres the evidence right?!

(please don't throw some crap about rodents and monkeys at me...)

"But why? They're just like us!"

When was the last time you took a taxi and it was being driven by a gorilla?

wow what a brilliant point! so by that same token all research on the treatment of leprosy, tuberculosis, polio, and insulin based diabetes research should be thrown out the window. why? well do i look like a fucking animal? silly scientists, maybe one day they'll learn.

grow up montel, if you want to think that way go ahead, pop pills till your brain comes out your nose, but don't come on here telling people its harmless.

 

[montel]

"Come on man, thats just seeing only what you want to see."

I just want to congratulate you for ignoring every single one of my points - and requests for solid information from credible sources that prove any of what you say is true.

For the record:

Yes, aspirin is evidently more harmful for you than mdma. (see my previous posts, on page 2)

okay... if you're too lazy mr. broken record is here to help you:

http://www.biomediclabs.com/dangers_of_aspirin

"In the case of aspirin, if you read the studies by British and American researchers, you will see that taking aspirin can cause much more harm than good.

The chance of developing ulcers is just one potential side effect. Others include:


Increasing your risk of pancreatic cancer
Damaging your kidneys
Gastric bleeding "

Moving on...

Yes, staying awake for three days and depriving your body of sleep + a correct sleep pattern, whilst exerting lots of energy for prolonged periods of time (that's dancing to you...) probably isn't what your doctor would call good medicine. I don't really care if they got 'a few hours sleep in between' - that's very much beside the point.

http://generalmedicine.suite101.com/article.cfm/dangers_of_sleep_deprivation


"Mental Effects of Sleep Deprivation
Sleep deprivation can affect the way an individual thinks, acts and performs normal activities. Sleep allows both the body and the brain to rest and heal. Without enough sleep the brain loses power and an individual will have problems with memory and concentration. Individuals who do not get enough sleep may experience emotional instability."

Emotional instabilty.... depression, perhaps?

My post above in relation to Naughties comments was intended to highlight the many contradictions the user was stating, nothing more.

I'm quite tired of going over the same old shit and I hope that anyone with an objective mind will be able to read this thread and realise that what I am trying to say does have some truth to it - based on the news articles and reports that I have linked to in my previous posts - all of which are credible sources.

I don't agree with animal testing, no. - How would you like to be locked in a cage, force fed chemicals and have parts of your brain cut out with a scalpel? ...all in the name of science. (actually, the bit about being force fed drugs doesn't sound too bad, but the rest of it is a bit rotten ) This really is another debate though and has no bearing on what I'm trying to say...

Of course, if you DO want to look at the testing that has been done on animals/mdma you'll probably find this article quite interesting:

http://www.mdma.net/toxicity/mixup.html

"There is no doubt that using Ecstasy carelessly can kill by causing people to overheat and drink too much fluid. That lowers their blood's salt concentration and throws their hearts out of kilter. But whether light recreational use has long-term effects on the brain, and how, is still hotly debated. "

btw/ I don't pop pills at all anymore and I haven't for about two years.

 

[CaliFortunate]

i just addressed all your points. and if you want to hold me a standard, do the same for yourself bro. wheres the evidence saying that it's harmless, or less dangerous than aspirin?

by scientific method you can't say, "it doesn't clearly show damage, therefore it's harmless". i dont know how the fuck you can come to that conclusion when science shows that there ARE clearly changes that occur. if CHANGES occur, it is therefore not harmless. theres your studies.

oh but they were done on animals? so therefore they don't count? you need to understand that agreeing with the principle of animal research is a world completely separate from qualifying the merit of the results, which the scientific community has unanimously accepted as valid.

so you want evidence of human's brains undergoing changes, but there have been no studies on humans brains with controlled amounts of ecstasy, therefore it is harmless. wow, your a regular fuckin sherlock holmes dude!

 

[stuckinaloop]

you would have to be dumb to think it's less harmful than aspirin.

yeah lets give all our grandparents some ecstasy to take!!

don't even waste your time argueing...this is someone who obviously likes ecstasy and is down play it's effects/side effects from use (not that I dont love x...I just know the realities of it)

 

[montel]

i just addressed all your points. and if you want to hold me a standard, do the same for yourself bro. wheres the evidence saying that it's harmless, or less dangerous than aspirin?

Four words:

Pancreatic cancer

Gastric bleeding

(I've got a few more if you want to hear them as well...)

by scientific method you can't say, "it doesn't clearly show damage, therefore it's harmless". i dont know how the fuck you can come to that conclusion when science shows that there ARE clearly changes that occur. if CHANGES occur, it is therefore not harmless. theres your studies.

Please elaborate?

Changes occur - try this - yesterday morning I felt a bit sad but in the afternoon I felt quite happy. A change occurs therefore it is damaging? What on earth do you make of the menstrual cycle? Does this mean my wife is slowly damaging herself every month? Shit....what about adolescence?

Anyone have the number for the A-Team? I think we need em'.

oh but they were done on animals? so therefore they don't count? you need to understand that agreeing with the principle of animal research is a world completely separate from qualifying the merit of the results, which the scientific community has unanimously accepted as valid.

Define unanimously:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2008-02-14-animal-tests_N.htm

so you want evidence of human's brains undergoing changes, but there have been no studies on humans brains with controlled amounts of ecstasy, therefore it is harmless. wow, your a regular fuckin sherlock holmes dude!

There have been studies on the effects of mdma+human brain...

http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=1335

"no definitive information is yet available on the question of ecstasy toxicity to human brain serotonin neurons"

Probably because...

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity3.shtml

"It's an open secret that some teams have failed to find deficits in ecstasy users and had trouble publishing the findings"

Watson, where are my slippers?

 

[montel]

you would have to be dumb to think it's less harmful than aspirin.

yeah lets give all our grandparents some ecstasy to take!!

don't even waste your time argueing...this is someone who obviously likes ecstasy and is down play it's effects/side effects from use (not that I dont love x...I just know the realities of it)

"someone who likes ecstasy", now you've crossed the line.

No, I'm just a little bit fed up with all this "omfg, your brain is perm damaged for life - I'm on 50 meds a day" crap I read here. I personally think that kind of talk IS damaging to people who haven't done a little bit of research.

Psychologically damaging, that is.

Saying you've abused a drug and then blaming the drug is just silly - the key word is 'abused' i.e. you've over done things... that's YOUR problem and has nothing to do with the drug, all you're doing is shifting the blame from yourself to the drug.

You know, drinking too much water CAN kill you - applying your logic, everything is dangerous. I say water isn't dangerous at all - nor is mdma, from the evidence that's floating around.

When we can accept the truth that's staring right back at us - then we move one step closer to getting it legalised - spreading misinformation around does nothing, at all, to help the cause.

 

[F1n1shed]

Califortunate please stop addressing montels stupid and useless posts, it seems he has brain damage him self. Montel you are a moron and thats being nice your logic is no where near correct. Please keep dosing, as you said there is no evidence for damage. It is just the drug thats making you feel a little off the days following but as soon as you feel better all the damage has disappeared correct? And there is no step closer to getting it legalized you idiot, it will never be legal because it is a potent neuro toxin and will psychologically fuck up everyone if it was legal.

 

[montel]

Enough...

PM received from stuckinaloop (boy do I know that feeling)

---------------

"what the fuck are you talking about don't go spreading that bull shit

ecstasy is less dangerous than aspirin

seriously you are dumb as shit this is a harm reduction forum "

---------------

Can I politely ask you to (a) prove me wrong and (b) not send me private messages of that nature.

My posts ARE about harm reduction - hopefully people might read this and realise they probably haven't 'fucked up their brain for life' and start to take a more positive approach to life - hopefully, they will also start to question things a bit more.

 

[montel]

Califortunate please stop addressing montels stupid and useless posts, it seems he has brain damage him self. Montel you are a moron and thats being nice your logic is no where near correct. Please keep dosing, as you said there is no evidence for damage. It is just the drug thats making you feel a little off the days following but as soon as you feel better all the damage has disappeared correct? And there is no step closer to getting it legalized you idiot, it will never be legal because it is a potent neuro toxin and will psychologically fuck up everyone if it was legal.

(montel begins to pull his hair out and attempts to throw himself out of the window but fails once he realises he's on the ground floor)

1) I don't dose anymore. (you might have noticed I mentioned that before, had you read my previous post further up.)

2) Address just one of my points, providing me with an intelligent, referenced, counter-argument (preferably citing an article that doesn't include the words 'idiot' and 'fuck up') and I will bow down to your eternal wisdom.

3) see point 2.

 

[CaliFortunate]

montel this will be my last post addressed to you because

1) you have a strategy of avoiding arguments you have no answer to by a) ignoring them completely or b) creating a completly different, mostly irrelevant spin-off argument loosely tied to your original.

2) logic clearly isn't one of your strong points. pardon the pun, but when x+1= 3 in one case, and x+2=4 in another, you can't, or refuse to, connect the dots.

3) you're just not that smart. (see points 1 and 2)

before i give you the evidence you keep asking for, i'll give you one piece of advice that is an absolute must if you ever want someone to take your argument seriously. YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY HAVE ONE AND STICK WITH IT. for the second time you've admitted that excessive mdma has side effects. for that to occur, there has to be some sort of damage that occurs, which overtime will compound into a noticable amount. if something is harmless it does not have any effect. sustained use of a harmless substance does not equate to damage. 0+0+0+0+0 does not equal 3. Do you understand? and water does not work as an example because that has to do with the amount your body can process at one time. we are not dicussing the possibility of overdosing on ecstasy, we are discussing the effects of sustained use. drinking 8 cups of water everyday will result in nothing. if you say that sustained use of mdma causes damage, you are admitting that as a subtance it is not harmless. I'm sorry if you can't see it that way but from a logical approach, there is no other way to look at it.

now on to the main attraction. you want evidence of harm resulting from mdma. here you go:

http://www.dancesafe.org/documents/druginfo/neurotoxicity.php

bow down.

science does show that the brain is affected by mdma use. there is simply no other way to put it, mdma causes the breakdown of certain areas of the brain. from there it's hard to say the amount and frequency required for the user to notice significant changes in mental health as a result from this neurobiological rearranging, but to assume that this stage is impossible to reach. i'm sorry but your lying to yourself. you seem to like erowid as a source of information. i suggest you go to the experiences section of mdma and read the reports of people who abused and how it affected their life. from there you can understand the verdict is still out in the scientific community over how much is required before you start to notice significant psychological problems, then fill in those gaps with anectodal reports of the numerous people who have taken it to the point of experiencing phsycological problems. or you can ignore all that and email all those people to tell them they just need to get more sleep. your call dude. i know logic isnt your strong point so heres a tip, try the first method!

anyways, this will be my last time ever addressing you. have a nice life!

 

[montel]

I'm tired and I should be asleep but I want to point out that this post above is the FIRST time you have even remotely tried to discuss this matter intelligently - for that, I salute you and say thank you.

Unfortunately, it's not all good.

Let's accept for a moment that a website called 'dancesafe.org' is the bastion of medical research into ecstasy use - difficult, but I'm going to try:

A couple of paragraphs down into your article:

These two pictures show slices of a monkey's brain. The serotonin axons have been stained to make them appear as bright lines. The picture on the left (A) is from a normal monkey. The picture on the right (B) is from a monkey that was injected with a very large dose of MDMA.[1] As you can see, many of its serotonin axons have been lost. (Animal research suggests that when a neurotoxic dosage of MDMA is given, damage to the axons starts to occur in as little as an hour or two.)

"...a very large dose...." -

I believe the expression is WTF? - with comments like that you'll have to forgive me if I suspect something isn't quite right?

Truth is, I remember this article (well, this bit about the monkeys in particular) very well. - That 'large dose' was well above the 'average dose' of a human being and not just questionable but downright wrong. There is nothing remotely valid about that research - damage to the seratonin axons is the key - yet there is no proof it is actually damaged - like a fibrous hair it appears to grow back - the question is 'if' it grows back good and proper or is somehow damaged? I suspect it isn't - but let's give it another 50 years - if all the heavy users are in the funny farm then you are right, if they aren't, well...

My argument has only been one - that mdma is harmless, and safer than aspirin.

--

You'll be very pleased to hear that I can't be bothered to discuss this further, mostly because everything I have to say has already been said.

 

[The Smoking Man]

roller11dude, i remember i read the releasing agents article on wikipedia. MDMA put out much more serotonin than methamphetamine, and i think around the same amount of dopamine. Its the extreme release of serotonin that causes neurotoxicity. methamphetamine still is used medically, it is only neurotoxic in high high doses.

It's more the dopamine release, actually. MAOs break dopamine down into hydrogen peroxide, and a high presence of peroxides causes oxidative stress, and without sufficient antioxidants to manage it, leads to neurotoxicity. Hyperserotonemia is still a real possibility, though I'd imagine you'd have to heavily abuse (or only a little if in combination with an MAOI) MDMA to develop that, or if you consume adulterated X (especially if it has PMA - that is scary shit).

 

[netcrusher]

In 50 years time they might have an analogue of MDMA that does not have the negative neurotoxic aspects and imagine that world..... We were the first to sample distorted perfection and the future will have it more That makes me sad and happy ... Just reading work from David pearce on www.mdma.net showcases what is possible - I mean read this:

The godlike powers of tomorrow's biotechnologists will allow the neurological substrates of empathy and self-insight to be permanently up-regulated. Aesthetically, the mundane ugliness of life in the present epoch can be replaced by gradations of hitherto unimaginable beauty. Potentially again, an E-like magic can imbue the texture of normal waking consciousness. If we so wish, our emotional palette can be genetically enriched, mixed and then pharmacologically refined in ways that transcend the crude primary colours of our Darwinian past.


I mean WOW

 

[bben]

95% of the people that post on here have no idea what they're talking about and know next to nothing about MDMA. MDMA in certain people can cause serious pyschological effects that do NOT go away, sometimes ever.

Again, I've seen this in plenty of people and it happened to me as well.

It's funny how the people that deny MDMA's harm are all the ones who havent had any issues with it, hence it must be safe for everone right..

Theres a small subset of people that tend to get all of mdma's harmful effects. Maybe it's just a certain genetic code thats especially vulnerable, who knows. The fact is that MDMA is probably the most dangerous drug as far as permanent brain damage (it's been pretty much conclusively proven to cleave serotonin terminals of of SERT neurons, and they don't regrow back normally) besides Methamphetamine, and Methamphetamine destroys dopamine terminals so it tends to manifest in a different type of brain damage. The brain changes from ecstasy have a very unique flavor, that unless you've experienced it; you dont know.

I'd love to shoot down anyone who wants to argue that MDMA is even remotely safe to the human pysche in all people.

Actually, chances are I won't look back at this thread because I don't like responding to idiots. So please keep rolling and I hope you suffer brain damage so you can now what its like : ).

 

[roller11dude]

Yeah montel I think it's somewhat ignorant to infer that MDMA is safer than asprin for all people (although you did bring up some great points, and i agree that 'damage is probably way over rated). It does appear that many people who used/abused MDMA have become depression/anxious. However the first rule of correlational "studies" (lets pretend everyones stories who claims to have become depressed after MDMA counts as a study, which it doesnt lol) is that CORRELATION CAN NEVER PROVE CAUSATION.
We have people who are depressed and abused MDMA. Scientifically you cannot say that MDMA caused depression, because maybe depression caused MDMA abuse (sounds believable), or a third factor (sleep deprivation, other drugs, generally unhealthy lifestyle, adulterated pills... the list goes on)

I'll admit that this is just me hoping that this is true. In reality, I think it's likely that MDMA CAN atleast cause short term psychological damage (ie. depression etc.), but certainly not in everybody. I've met people who roll most weekends atleast once who swear that it hasnt affected them at all; theres people i've met that say they abused it and it fucked them up for a bit; and one of my good friends only used it around once every month or even less often but it sent him into a deep depression for over a week after, to which he slowly recovered.

 

[felix77]

CaliFortunate,

Is this post seriously your thoughts on this topic?

If it is, either I or someone else will provide links to get you up to date.

I could post research to counter it.. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence out there, this has already been covered. There is no solid proof ether way yet. Some people tend to interpret the evidence as negative, some have had negative effects. Some people, like myself, tend to believe that MDMA is not highly harmful to the majority. I base this on personal experience and the research that I have read. When it comes down to it, none of us are qualified to make a determination. I'll just keep in my corner, cheering David Nutt.

 

[bben]

Felix it's been well established that MDMA and its metabolite MDA are toxic to humans in higher doses. There is still some debate as to at what dose this toxicity begins ( perhaps at doses that people would'nt normally take). There is also some uncertainty as to how much the brain can recover after MDMA abuse. Lastly, there are genetic factors that likely predict how much damage you would sustain or how protected you are from mdma, like the serotonin allele and its length and if it has any strange polymorphisms.

I will grant you that alone in small doses (1-1.5 mg kg) with certain preventitive measures (prozac, antioxidants, cool environment) MDMA can be somewhat safe, but the stuff is really a poison and your playing russian roulette with your brain. Damage can still take place without any change in behavior. A good example is parkinsons. Symptoms wont show until 80% of dopamine neurons die off. The same could be said for MDMA, although it doesnt kill serotonin neurons; it does cleave the fine axon terminals. This can result in memory and cognitive issues. This is more or less fact. I've seen studies of this, and in myself, and in MANY other people.

It took decades to prove smoking caused health problems, but all common sense and anecdotal evidence pointed toward it. The same it true with MDMA.

Some people can smoke for decades and never get cancer, but its proven that it CAN cause it.

Some peope can take MDMA and never have depressive or cognitive issues, but IT CAN cause these issues.

Things can be inferred without strict scientific proof (which there nearly is in this case).

MDMA is a human neurotoxin. I advise felix to take 500 mg of MDMA (a dose i have seen people ingest) and then to go sit in the sun. I mean if it doesnt cause any damage you shouldnt have any issues doing this, right?

I could debate you into the ground man, post up all your studies that show MDMA is 100% safe in all humans.

FYI it took decades to prove methamphetamine was toxic, im sure all those users wish they had the info we have about it now.

Please people stay with non-toxic drugs (basically all the non- club drugs).

 

[roller11dude]

^Good post. One thing I've noticed anectodaly (sp?) is that people are far more likely to get side effects when they take large dosages at once. I would argue that using 2 pills a week for 4 weeks is far LESS damaging than taking 8 pills throughout a night even if they take a long break after, and i know people who do take 2 pills a week and they claim their fine (again, like you said, I guess they just may not be able to tell). A lot of the horror stories on this site are from people who take far to many pills in one sitting. Just wish there was more conclusive evidence. Didn't MAPS say that it was completely harmless, or did they just say its almost harmless and the ends justify the means (in terms of treating PTSD)

 

[felix77]

Felix it's been well established that MDMA and its metabolite MDA are toxic to humans in higher doses. There is still some debate as to at what dose this toxicity begins ( perhaps at doses that people would'nt normally take). There is also some uncertainty as to how much the brain can recover after MDMA abuse. Lastly, there are genetic factors that likely predict how much damage you would sustain or how protected you are from mdma, like the serotonin allele and its length and if it has any strange polymorphisms.

I will grant you that alone in small doses (1-1.5 mg kg) with certain preventitive measures (prozac, antioxidants, cool environment) MDMA can be somewhat safe, but the stuff is really a poison and your playing russian roulette with your brain. Damage can still take place without any change in behavior. A good example is parkinsons. Symptoms wont show until 80% of dopamine neurons die off. The same could be said for MDMA, although it doesnt kill serotonin neurons; it does cleave the fine axon terminals. This can result in memory and cognitive issues. This is more or less fact. I've seen studies of this, and in myself, and in MANY other people.

It took decades to prove smoking caused health problems, but all common sense and anecdotal evidence pointed toward it. The same it true with MDMA.

Some people can smoke for decades and never get cancer, but its proven that it CAN cause it.

Some peope can take MDMA and never have depressive or cognitive issues, but IT CAN cause these issues.

Things can be inferred without strict scientific proof (which there nearly is in this case).

MDMA is a human neurotoxin. I advise felix to take 500 mg of MDMA (a dose i have seen people ingest) and then to go sit in the sun. I mean if it doesnt cause any damage you shouldnt have any issues doing this, right?

I could debate you into the ground man, post up all your studies that show MDMA is 100% safe in all humans.

FYI it took decades to prove methamphetamine was toxic, im sure all those users wish they had the info we have about it now.

Please people stay with non-toxic drugs (basically all the non- club drugs).

We have been through this before. Number one, your word isn't proof. I could ask you to link evidence but you could easily find some DEA web site full of claims. I could find some University study to counter it and we could do that all day. One thing is for sure, there is no absolute evidence of toxicity in the brain. your claims are not backed by science as usual. I am wondering if you work for the DEA propaganda department or if you were born with psychological problems that you really would like to blame on ecstasy.