Eating Meat?

[DJDannyUhOh]

thanks for following it until now

Yeah, it's much more fun to read other people argue. I've said enough for this thread.

 

[monkeyjunky]

.vegan - that guy edwin locke was quoting PETA, he wasn't part of it. read it again.
My sister is a vegan so i have heard all of this many, many times before. I believe she is member of PETA too8). If we aren't designed for meat, why do we have an urge to eat it? I suppose it could be conditioning, but how then, did the people that constructed that societal trend come to eat meat? - its certainly not more efficient in any sense.
I know there's evidence to support the fact that eating a lot of red meat is harmful - but is there any to even suggest that white meat is bad for us? I've never seen any

 

[Bricoleur]

Comparative anatomy of humans: by Milton R. Mills, M.D. In conclusion, we see that human beings have the gastrointestinal tract structure of a “committed” herbivore. Humankind does not show the mixed structural features one expects and finds in anatomical omnivores such as bears and raccoons. Thus, from comparing the gastrointestinal tract of humans to that of carnivores, herbivores and omnivores we must conclude that humankind's GI tract is designed for a purely plant-food diet.
Facial Muscles Carnivore: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape; Herbivore: Well-developed; Omnivore: Reduced; Human: Well-developed
Jaw Type Carnivore: Angle not expanded; Herbivore: Expanded angle; Omnivore: Angle not expanded; Human: Expanded angle
Jaw Joint Location Carnivore: On same plane as molar teeth; Herbivore: Above the plane of the molars; Omnivore: On same plane as molar teeth; Human: Above the plane of the molars;
* Jaw Motion Carnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion; Herbivore: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back; Omnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side; Human: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Major Jaw Muscles Carnivore: Temporalis; Herbivore: Masseter and pterygoids; Omnivore: Temporalis; Human: Masseter and pterygoids
Mouth Opening vs. Head Size Carnivore: Large; Herbivore: Small; Omnivore: Large; Human: Small;
Teeth (Incisors) Carnivore: Short and pointed; Herbivore: Broad, flattened and spade shaped; Omnivore: Short and pointed;
Human: Broad, flattened and spade shaped;
Teeth (Canines) Carnivore: Long, sharp and curved; Herbivore: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none; Omnivore: Long, sharp and curved; Human: Short and blunted;
Teeth (Molars) Carnivore: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped; Herbivore: Flattened with cusps vs. complex surface; Omnivore: Sharp blades and/or flattened; Human: Flattened with nodular cusps;
Chewing Carnivore: None; swallows food whole; Herbivore: Extensive chewing necessary; Omnivore: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing; Human: Extensive chewing necessary;
Saliva Carnivore: No digestive enzymes; Herbivore: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes; Omnivore: No digestive enzymes; Human: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes;
Stomach Type Carnivore: Simple; Herbivore: Simple or multiple chambers; Omnivore: Simple; Human: Simple;
Stomach Acidity Carnivore: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach; Herbivore: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach; Omnivore: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach; Human: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach;
Stomach Capacity Carnivore: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract; Herbivore: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract; Omnivore: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract; Human: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract;
Length of Small Intestine Carnivore: 3 to 6 times body length; Herbivore: 10 to more than 12 times body length; Omnivore: 4 to 6 times body length; Human: 10 to 11 times body length;
Colon Carnivore: Simple, short and smooth; Herbivore: Long, complex; may be sacculated; Omnivore: Simple, short and smooth; Human: Long, sacculated;
Liver Carnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A; Herbivore: Cannot detoxify vitamin A; Omnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A; Human: Cannot detoxify vitamin A;
Kidney Carnivore: Extremely concentrated urine Herbivore: Moderately concentrated urine; Omnivore: Extremely concentrated urine; Human: Moderately concentrated urine;
Nails Carnivore: Sharp claws; Herbivore: Flattened nails or blunt hooves; Omnivore: Sharp claws

Like all dietary comparisons the one concocted by Mills is no different in that it only focuses on similarities and not differences.

I look through the above list and I am at a loss as to how anyone can use it as an argument (or ‘proof’) of diet when it is so subjective and indeterminate?

I’ll return shortly with a blow-by-blow knockout of Mills’ comparison.

the bricoleur

 

[vegan]

^^ if you had read the thread, you'd know that i didn't quote this as a "proof" for anything, but as an answer to someone who said " Our appendix is an organ that was once used to digest vegetables. We don't need that organ anymore - we can live without it. This clearly points out that we have since been moving in a one way direction towards eating meat."

he gave one physical characteristic that he claimed showed that we're "bound to eat meat". well, here are 20 that would show that we're not

 

[mariacallas]

 

[Sleeping_Door_Mouse]

eatting meat is not murder.

the systematic mass murder of millions of animals? who cares?

you wanna talk inhumane?

how about being eatten, ALIVE, in the dark, alone, hearing horribly frightening creatures tear you apart before passing out from the pain?

thats what happens to deer/gazelle/bison/etc everyday.

how about opening your eyes.... to see your mother eat you.

many animals deal with that.

how about being driven to mate all your life, only to be eatten by your partner?

praying mantis.

nature isnt pretty and neither is life, for any of us.

the only difference between man and animals is that we have a lobe in our brains that makes us have emotions, thusly, we feel 'special' because we can feel and think.

get over it. its an evolutionary hook-up, thats all.

how many herd animals die on the african plains each year? hundreds of thousands at least. include the whole world, youre at millions.

now, you tell me, which would you prefer:
A. being led through life, comfortably fed, housed from the elements, surrounded by your kind, to eventually be led to your death in a one-hit-kill style death....

...or...

B. be run down on the plains by a pack of lions/hyenas/wild dogs, being worn down through bites and cuts and bleeding and running, until you fall. then, while youre still alive, they open you up and begin to feed.

now you tell me, which would you prefer?

true, our way isnt natural, but its surely not inhumane. if anything, its HUMANe. no other animal cares about the lives of its prey, let alone put it down in a quick manner.

we feel for our prey, which is one of the many negative aspects of humanity- we are so pious, we forget that we are only animals.


and if you dont eat meat, how do you replace the nutritional value? powdered vitamins? drink lots of milk?

milk is horrible for you, unless youre a baby cow. dont believe me? look into it. humans are NOT meant to drink that filth.

vitamin suppliments are about as natural as anything the beef industry does.

vegetarianism is against nature. humans are NOT herbivores and we are meant, phsyically, to digest meat.

the apendix was in place to allow us to eat raw meat. if man hadnt become such a priss, we prolly still could.

leave it to humans to create a method of preparing food that will permanently negate an organ.

I hate being human.

 

[mariacallas]

BRING ON THEE SUCKLING ROaST PIG!

 

[dismantled_psyche]

alot of these vegatarians are very self-righteous, seperating themselves from what they consider nature. if an lion kills a gazelle, it's natural, if a human kills a deer, it's cruel. people need to realize that we are nature, everything we do and have done is natural. americas meat industry may be cruel, but it is of nature. mother nature will take care of her own.

 

[ebola?]

Is-ought fallacies are natural.

 

[monkeyjunky]

if you had read the thread, you'd know that i didn't quote this as a "proof" for anything, but as an answer to someone who said

I have read the thread and it did not answer my specific question.
Sleepingdoormouse - the vegan's point of view is that because we have been blessed with the ability to "feel" we ought to make the best of it and remove ourselves from nature to some extent - i don't know why, but they seem to think of "unnatural" as "bad" and so try to persuade and convince people (and themselves) that veganism is natural. Which its not, but i don't see how that makes any bit of difference one way or the other.

 

[Sleeping_Door_Mouse]

the vegan point of view(and keep in mind, im not an expert on this, im jus going from what i know, so feel free to correct me) is simply foolish.

You are made to eat meat. You are not a special little snow-flake of God just because you over think your existence.

Humans think so far into everything that everyday life becomes a "moral dilema".

Oh, goodness me, I shant eat that little cow. Look how cute he is! No no, I shall eat some brocolli. Of course, my insides are slowly going to become weak, as will my bones from calcium deficiency. Oh and how about protein?

Meat is GOOD for you. Thats like, the main thing our ancestors ate. See, man was evolved with the ability TO think at that time, he just didnt have TIME to think. Would you be so quick to wonder if that happy little cow was cute or not if you hadnt eatten in a week? Lol, imagine if you had to run it down and kill it with your bare hands? Oooo, whatcha gonna do monsuier vegan?

youre gonna kill, and youre gonna eat. Just like any animal.

for the last time:

HUMANS ARE NOT, NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT, ABOVE ANIMALS IN ANY WAY (aside from the obvious technical authority).

If anything, we are below THEM, for we have truly fallen from the grace of nature. We hide from her in dirty stoned citys. We travel to her remaining pristine places and leave our trash behind.

yet, so caught up in the minor details- the killing of animals for meat, abortion, whether or not its 'right' to do this or that- are we that miss the important matters.... like, oh, ya know, the fact that the FUCKING PLANET IS DYING!

Fuck the beef industry, what about us?! When we cant breath the air, and you cant eat from the land and everything around us will be so poisoned and horrid that nothing will be able to live here for hundreds of thousands of years, we will die. All of us. Humanity = gone.

Lemme just help to put you in perspective here:

Humans- max age: 3000 yrs old (and im being generous there)

Dinosaurs: min age: millions... MILLIONS, as in HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of YEARS

we are nothing.

we are flys to be swatted away after the world TRULY grows tired of us.

keep having your discussion on the ethics of meat.

your polishing the metal on the bloody titanic. this stuff isnt important. we're all going down.

 

[DJDannyUhOh]

You are not a special little snow-flake of God just because you over think your existence.

LOL

 

[Sleeping_Door_Mouse]

^^

You, however, are a special little snowflake of God.

Aqua Teen rules.


PUT ZEM IN ZI MELTER!!

 

[Psychedelic Gleam]

Sleeping_Door_Mouse, trying to say the meat industry is humane is ain incredibly foolish statement you have to be in major denial to believe that. Animals in the wild are often brutally killed but temporary misery after a lifetime in the wild is better than living in a cage your whole life, never seeing the sun, i would take it any day. Aniimals in the wild don't mass slaughter other animals they take what they need, they don't go and kill whole herds of wild deer/elk/whatnot, its a balanced system, we have set up this bizarre system in which we harvest animals like plants.

"my insides are slowly going to become weak, as will my bones from calcium deficiency. Oh and how about protein?"

Uh since when were calcium and protein unobtainable to vegetarians.

I believe meat eating is fine as is hunting and whatnot, but to actually think the meat industry is humane and better for the animals then nature? are you joking, thats one of the most idiotic things i have heard in a while.

 

[monkeyjunky]

Meat is GOOD for you. Thats like, the main thing our ancestors ate. See, man was evolved with the ability TO think at that time, he just didnt have TIME to think. Would you be so quick to wonder if that happy little cow was cute or not if you hadnt eatten in a week? Lol, imagine if you had to run it down and kill it with your bare hands? Oooo, whatcha gonna do monsuier vegan?

Yeh, i eat meat - but thats bullshit - just look at how totally meaningless that paragraph was.
And to that last sentence - they've been known to bomb cars - you're next sleepy mouse
I agree with psychedelic dream - but i don't have the willpower.

 

[vegan]

Sleeping_Door_Mouse
before wasting my time with you, i'll ask you to read this very thread and that one too to find the answers already given to every "point" you think you're making

if you can't find them, i'll quote them for you, and i'll wash your diapers too.
but i don't see why i should waste my time for someone who's not making the effort of using his eyes and brain first and doesn't have the humility of considering that his bright ideas may have already been enunciated in every single thread talking about vegetarianism by someone else as clever as yourself.

dismantled_psyche
same thing
we've been arguing for 9 pages, so if you're not going to make the effort of reading the conversation first and of writing more than one damn stupid sentence, just shut up


crystalcallas
i hope you realise how stupid (and why) the cartoon is
i really hope
but i don't think so
sorry for you
if you need any help just ask

I have read the thread and it did not answer my specific question

it's to bricoleur that i said "if you had read the thread"

that guy edwin locke was quoting PETA, he wasn't part of it. read it again

yes, sorry
i had just read "[...] I would rather have medical experiments done on our children than on animals." Locke says, [...]"
but now that i've read the text and since it seems that this quote can only be found quoted in his own texts, it's obvious that he took a quote from a specific individual (you won't find it on any peta site) to try to discredit peta.

anyway, i can just repeat what i said and apply it to the person quoted (although locke might even have invented the quote to make peta look evil) :
"he wants to pass the message that if experiments were done in favour of humans, it would only be justifiable to do them on humans, not on other species that wouldn't "benefit" from them
he obviously doesn't say this to say experiments on children would be justified but to show how unjustified he finds them on animals
"you'd find crazy to experiment on children? well, (i agree, but) it's even less justifiable to experiment on animals""

If we aren't designed for meat, why do we have an urge to eat it? I suppose it could be conditioning, but how then, did the people that constructed that societal trend come to eat meat?

you answered your own question
someone born in a vegetarian society will find meat disgusting if he gets confronted to it later. and he will have to educate himself to liking it if he decides to start eating meat
just think about yourself and other civilizations' eating habits.
do you find insects appetizing?
well, in many non western countries you'll find people who do
do you find birds' brains appetizing?
chinese do
do you find human meat appetizing?
cannibal tribes did
do you like that jelly the english eat?

i used to love meat
i decided to stop eating it for ethical/logical reasons while still loving it
now the smell makes almost me want to throw up and i sure wouldn't be able to keep it down if i ate some
good example of how our tastes are very culturally orientated

why did the people that constructed that societal trend come to eat meat?
because, contrarily to us, at some point they didn't have the choice

we are not "meant" to do things. we evolve to allow us to do them

the argument "are we made or not to eat meat" has no meaning at all

the questions are
"can we eat meat?"
"can we not eat meat?"
"does eating meat cause suffering and death?"
"does not eating meat not cause suffering and death?"
"what do we then decide to do since we have the possibility to chose?"

there is no "we have to because it's like that". we don't have to let myths and beliefs dictate our behaviour. we can chose by ourselves what is better for all sentient beings

the same question was argued in this thread

but is there any to even suggest that white meat is bad for us? I've never seen any

i reaaaaally don't care
i've never seen any evidence that eating human meat is bad for me either

i only argue about health when someone tries to discredit vegetarianism with false claims about invented dangers for your health
but you can eat whatever you want as far as it doesn't hurt others. you can kill yourself with chocolate if you want, you decide of your own life... but not of the ones of others (animals)

 

[ralph_monsters]

I would like to once again add that it is almost always the people who eat meat doing the criticizing in these types of conversations.

It is almost always the people who eat meat who spout out unintelligent overviews of evolution and supposed inner-workings of the universe.


I never bring the topic up with my friends, it is always imposed upon me.

I have said all this throughout my life, but it never seems to settle in.


Converting you is about as important to me as eating a large bowl of broken glass.

 

[lostpunk5545]

^ I agree with everything you've said.

I don't go around criticising or even judging people because of their decision to eat meat. Yet over the three years I've been one the fact that I'm a vegetarian is constantly being brought up negatively in conversations by other people, including friends.

Macho insecurity?

It seems that a lot of people are not simply happy with agreeing not to agree with you on the fact that you have different opinions on an animals use as a commodity, but they have to let you know that they disapprove of you decision. Furthermore they feel the need to deride you, to reassure themselves that they're right in the matter...

May I postulate that deep down you nazi-like meat eaters (and I'm just categorising the types of meat eaters I've mentioned above here, not all of you) find your position indefensible, therefore resort to rhetoric?

 

[everythinginside]

Do what thou whilst is the whole of the law.

______

I ate a rare steak the other day and I don't think I will ever go back to eating done steaks.

It tasted fucking good!

 

[vegan]

^^ and "one's freedom stops where starts the one of others" is the first post scriptum after the text of "the law"