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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

EADD Theology Thread - Chapter III: Trinity

NE: You quoted John which is heavily influenced by gnostic christianity - so does that mean you have to be gnostic to properly follow what John was on about?

Shambles: Great post - though when you said "(complete with completely unfounded vague whiffs, wafts and suggestions that Gnosticism was somehow related to witchcraft or magic and the like which simply is not true)." - i'd take issue, depending on how we define magic and witchcraft (not forgetting all religions do magic (eg turning wafers into jesus) and define other religions' magic as witchcraft) - While it was no doubt exaggerated by the persecuters (with added baby sacrifice), i think there must have been something the uninitiated wouldn't like for them to have been so secretive in the first place - even just simple gnostic techniques described above might seem like wacky magic to the uninitiated. There's definite hints of magic in the texts i've read, and the later renaissance magic/alchemy traditions also seem to derive a lot of their magic from gnosticism and hermetecism. This doesn't need to mean magic in any negative sense - maybe like magic in the true alchemical sense of purifying your soul (not turning stuff into gold to make cash)
 
Vurtual said:
NE: You quoted John which is heavily influenced by gnostic christianity - so does that mean you have to be gnostic to properly follow what John was on about?

Shambles: Great post - though when you said "(complete with completely unfounded vague whiffs, wafts and suggestions that Gnosticism was somehow related to witchcraft or magic and the like which simply is not true)." - i'd take issue, depending on how we define magic and witchcraft (not forgetting all religions do magic (eg turning wafers into jesus) and define other religions' magic as witchcraft) - While it was no doubt exaggerated by the persecuters (with added baby sacrifice), i think there must have been something the uninitiated wouldn't like for them to have been so secretive in the first place - even just simple gnostic techniques described above might seem like wacky magic to the uninitiated. There's definite hints of magic in the texts i've read, and the later renaissance magic/alchemy traditions also seem to derive a lot of their magic from gnosticism and hermetecism. This doesn't need to mean magic in any negative sense - maybe like magic in the true alchemical sense of purifying your soul (not turning stuff into gold to make cash)
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I couldn't comment on Gnosticisms influence on the writing of Johns Gospel unless you show me which verses you mean. Perhaps you could give me an example so that I can gauge that for myself.

2 Peter 1:21 states that all scripture is Spirit inspired. To understand Scripture you have to be born of the Spirit/be in relationship with God so to speak (See Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus (John 3).

Theres no formula or secret esoteric knowledge you need to aquire. Its all there in the word and if you want to have a deeper understanding ask Him to take you there with a verse.

Its that relationship with Him and being part of His kingdom that is the Gold the Alchemists sought (and imo what all human beings pine for) I agree with you there. In that respect the Gift of the Holy Spirit is Eldorado.
 
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To clarify, when I say ' to understand scripture you need to be born of the Spirit' I mean in order to be nourished and at best led by Him. Its a different experience to come to the bible and just be inspired by it on a moral level...kinda prescriptively.
 
Gnosticism is basically appealing to an instinct which makes some people want to believe that they know something that "ordinary" people don't, which sets them apart. Those who join gnostic cults are promised some esoteric knowledge. All most of them ever end up finding out is that "the Rose gives Honey to the Bees" is code for "the Church gives Knowledge to those who seek it" -- not any of the actual esoteric knowledge itself.
 
That's a very reductive view of Gnosticism, Julie, and totally at odds with my own understanding and experience.

Sure, cults do exist, and have existed for centuries and beyond, and like most exclusive esoteric societies they tend to specialise in posturing, hierarchy and parlour games. The majority of those either practising or investigating such beliefs are not part of such societies, however.

In any case, the nearest thing to a pan-Gnostic consensus on 'secret' knowledge would be that it is attainable to all.

But you're bang on about the (contemporary) Rosicrucians, etc.
 
BecomingJulie said:
Gnosticism is basically appealing to an instinct which makes some people want to believe that they know something that "ordinary" people don't, which sets them apart. Those who join gnostic cults are promised some esoteric knowledge. All most of them ever end up finding out is that "the Rose gives Honey to the Bees" is code for "the Church gives Knowledge to those who seek it" -- not any of the actual esoteric knowledge itself.
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I agree with that, but that's also the case for all religions ultimately, whether through esoterica or theology, or just passive trust in religious authority - they're all castles made of sand where the final 'reveal' ends up being nothing like the initiate would imagine at the start, and often they wouldn't bother going through the whole thing if they knew. Even in buddhism, to reach the 'higher' reaches of the religion requires the seeker to stop seeking a 'higher' truth, and to realise that all the techniques from the early part are just attachments that end up being a desire which hold them back from 'enlightenment' (or something).

(Though that Rose/bees thing sound like it might be to do with shagging to me)
 
^^@ Sam

Well exactly its available to all...and we all have a path mapped out for us. One that will prosper and not harm us, give us hope and a future..and God our Father shows us what we need to know as we need to know it.

When we try to leave God out of the equation/ walk our own way without Him then we grab knowledge for power perhaps and egos sake. He is a loving Father...and like the perfect human Father will not overload us with information about our journey that might frighten us our blow our minds.

Theres a gentle revealing of knowledge..given not grabbed.
 
Could that really be the same god the father described in the old testament? cos he sounded a bit of a bastard and not very gentle - by his own supposed account, overbearing, selfish and not averse to collective punishment (plagues), killing off the odd city-state (sodom/gomorah), or even wiping out nearly all humanity - or was that also the nice god from the new testament but he was pretending to be a bastard cos we weren't ready for the nice stuff yet? (bit of a method actor our jehova?)

If god is within us all, and made everything and everyone, and is omnipresent and omniscient, then how could any person walk without god, whatever they thought or said? I'd agree if by walking with god you meant realising that we are all one and treating other people accordingly - but that's just obvious common sense morality - no god is required to realise that (except maybe the superego).
 
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Hindus believe atman ( inner man) is Brahman ( God) Its a kind of pantheism as is Buddhism and probably Gnosticism by the sounds of it. Christianity actually doesn't teach that we all have God in us. Our spirit is dead before its brought back to Life by God who gives us part of His Spirit. Like the bread (His body) and the blood ( His Life). We are redeemed and revitalised..and resurrected.

As we receive the beautiful gift of Christs Spirit ( Life) there are so many blessings there are also persecutions and trials..and many Christians experience them.

Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.John 15.20

BTW Vurtual I'm enjoying hearing your views.

And I didn't respond to the main theme of your last post because I don't quite understand some of His actions... We certainly see His wrath and fury.

One day I'll be able to ask those kind of questions face to face.
 
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NightsEpiphany said:
Hindus believe atman ( inner man) is Brahman ( God) Its a kind of pantheism as is Buddhism and probably Gnosticism by the sounds of it. Christianity actually doesn't teach that we all have God in us. Our spirit is dead before its brought back to Life by God who gives us part of His Spirit. Like the bread (His body) and the blood ( His Life). We are redeemed and revitalised..and resurrected.
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Isn't there stuff in Luke about jesus saying the kingdom is within you when talking to the pharisees? Some try to wiggle out of this by saying when he said the kingdom is within you, he actually meant he (jesus) was among them (the pharisees), and he'd never have said anything nice about pharisees anyway - this is obviously a load of bollocks when you read the original, and just sounds a desparate latter effort to keep the keys of the kingdom among priestly hands (textual argument against it here). And the words omnipresent and omniscient come from christian theology as far as i know.

Plus corinthians has: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

Later theologians obviously tried to twist these ideas because they didn't fit with the centralisation of power and the baroque intellectual bullshit they'd accrued over centuries to justify it.

To me, Tolstoy's Christian Anarchist version shown in his book "The Kingdom of God is Within You" seems a damn sight closer to the true heart of christianity in practice than what comes out of the church most of the time.
 
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When we are regenerated Christ is our teacher and yes He resides in us. The king of kings. The Kingdom of Heaven is indeed within us.. and we come to it via repentance and the cross and Christ.( the Way, Truth and Life).. We have a choice. I'm going to choose Life.

I stumble sometimes but He is our anchor when we wobble He balances us.

******

Off on a tangent I just listened to a talk about the incredible signs in the sky this year. For example there is a solar eclipse on the 1st Nissan ( Jewish new year March 20th).. and then there is another one on the Feast of Trumpets in September. Actually check this page out. Theres some really unusual celestial synchronicities this year.

http://www.triumphpro.com/blood-red-lunar-eclipses-and-solar-eclipses.htm

The writers connect the second coming of the Messiah with “signs in the heavens,” particularly the signs that “the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood” before the return of Christ.
 
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NightsEpiphany said:
( Jewish new year March 20th)
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Jewish New Year is in September. March the 20th has no significance in the Jewish calendar this year.

You may be thinking of Persian / Zoroastrian New Year, which is timed to coincide with the Equinox. In which case, it may be difficult to square that with your Christian beliefs.
 
Did you mean to repost that? There are some serious problems with the information you're presenting.

The Hebrews only celebrated the Equinox as their New Year prior to their conversion from idol worship.
 
Sammy G said:
Jewish New Year is in September. March the 20th has no significance in the Jewish calendar this year.

You may be thinking of Persian / Zoroastrian New Year, which is timed to coincide with the Equinox. In which case, it may be difficult to square that with your Christian beliefs.
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No I wasn't reading any Zoroastrian/Persian stuff.. Have a look at the link Sam. I've never really studied the Jewish calendar in depth.. That link says the Jewish new year is 20th March.

I know its a special day for the Jehovahs witnesses because they usually put an invitation to their Nissan celebrations in March.
 
NightsEpiphany said:
No I wasn't reading any Zoroastrian/Persian stuff.. Have a look at the link Sam. I've never really studied the Jewish calendar in depth.. That link says the Jewish new year is 20th March.
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That's utterly wrong. Jewish New Year is Rosh Hashanah, and will occur in September.

If you're thinking of the month of Nisan, which is the first month of the ecclesiastical year, then they're not the same thing. Besides, it doesn't begin until the 21st this year anyhow.

Your link is bunk.
 
Sammy G said:
Did you mean to repost that? There are some serious problems with the information you're presenting.
,
The Hebrews only celebrated the Equinox as their New Year prior to their conversion from idol worship.
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No I didn't mean to repost it Sam..Don't know what happened there..

Anyway, If there are problems tell me...The information I just posted came from that site. Tell me where its wrong...I can handle it :D
 
Sammy G said:
That's utterly wrong. Jewish New Year is Rosh Hashanah, and will occur in September.
If you're thinking of the month of Nisan, which is the first month of the ecclesiastical year, then they're not the same thing. Besides, it doesn't begin until the 21st this year anyhow.
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Ok, I'll look into that March date later..i'm off to the allotment I reckon :D...Solar Eclipse on Rosh Hashanah too. ( feast of Trumpets/Tabernacles?)

http://www.triumphpro.com/blood-red-lunar-eclipses-and-solar-eclipses.htm
 
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