EADD Theology Megathread

[Shambles]

I don't see the need for worship.

Quite. Suspiciously human thing this need to be worshipped and praised. So very insecure. Almost exactly like a fragile male ego. Primitive and ignorant projections of dread-laden paternalist bullshit? Religion? Nah. Shurely shome mishtake, missus!?!

 

[rickolasnice]

Sorry short shitey response here but I have a massive headache. And this is the worst thread to post in when you have a headache:



Heavily abused. Yeah I'd go along with that. Throughout history and in the modern world.

It becomes a complicated issue, because classing "religion" as a whole is completely unfair, because you're grouping peace-loving Christians, and sadistic Satan cults into the same division. We have to discern between the "True religion" and the "False religions" and then the true religion will have different denominations, some of which should be disregarded. It all get's very complicated and controversial.

So yes you are right to an extent, but you should be more aware of the beautiful aspects of true religion, which should not be negated because of the many who get it wrong.

Essentially, religion comes in different spirit. There are churches that cater for those seeking to live life in a purer way, in acceptance of God and promote using your life for good. This is really what it's about, and is not right to criticise this way of life, because of the many who get it wrong...



You're missing the point. Religions, politics, BBC4, Newspapers etc all suffer from human abuse.

You get paedophile priests, peado celebrities (Saville) and peado teachers. Though you may not consider religion as important as, lets say, politics, it is still necessary for a lot of people and cannot be blamed just because some bad seeds use it and abuse it.

Again, raas. I know religion can be and is used for good. I never said otherwise.

What good has religion done for you, if you don't mind me asking?

Living life a "purer" life because of what the bible says is bullshit. It's all based on controlling people because of what some story book says. And people don't need religion for morals. That hypothesis is long outdated and very, very debunked. It's also bullshit that people do live better lives because of religion.

NSFW for length:

NSFW:

Several weeks ago, a ground-breaking study on religious belief and social well-being was published in the Journal of Religion & Society. Comparing 18 prosperous democracies from the U.S. to New Zealand, author Gregory S Paul quietly demolished the myth that faith strengthens society.

Drawing on a wide range of studies to cross-match faith – measured by belief in God and acceptance of evolution – with homicide and intimate behavior, Paul found that secular societies have lower rates of violence and teenage pregnancy than societies where many people profess belief in God.

Top of the class, in both atheism and good behavior, come the Japanese. Over eighty percent accept evolution and fewer than ten percent are certain that God exists. Despite its size – over a hundred million people – Japan is one of the least crime-prone countries in the world. It also has the lowest rates of teenage pregnancy of any developed nation.

(Teenage pregnancy has less tragic consequences than violence but it is usually unwanted, and it is frequently associated with deprivation among both mothers and children. In general, it is a Bad Thing.)

Next in line are the Norwegians, British, Germans and Dutch. At least sixty percent accept evolution as a fact and fewer than one in three are convinced that there is a deity. There is little teenage pregnancy , although the Brits, with over 40 pregnancies per 1,000 girls a year, do twice as badly as the others. Homicide rates are also low -- around 1-2 victims per 100,000 people a year.

At the other end of the scale comes America. Over 50 percent of Americans believe in God, and only 40 percent accept some form of evolution (many believe it had a helping hand from the Deity). The U.S. has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy and homicide rates are at least five times greater than in Europe and ten times higher than in Japan.

All this information points to a strong correlation between faith and antisocial behavior -- a correlation so strong that there is good reason to suppose that religious belief does more harm than good.

At first glance that is a preposterous suggestion, given that religions preach non-violence and intimate restraint. However, close inspection reveals a different story. Faith tends to weaken rather than strengthen people’s ability to participate in society. That makes it less likely they will respect social customs and laws.

All believers learn that God holds them responsible for their actions. So far so good, but for many, belief absolves them of all other responsibilities. Consciously or subconsciously, those who are "born again" or "chosen" have diminished respect for others who do not share their sect or their faith. Convinced that only the Bible offers "truth", they lose their intellectual curiosity and their ability to reason. Their priority becomes not the world they live in but themselves.

The more people prioritize themselves rather than those around them, the weaker society becomes and the greater the likelihood of antisocial behavior. Hence gun laws which encourage Americans to see each other not as fellow human beings who deserve protection, but as potential aggressors who deserve to die. And hence a health care system which looks after the wealthy rather than the ill.

As for sex… Faith encourages ignorance rather than responsible behavior. In other countries, sex education includes contraception, reducing the risk of unwanted pregnancies. Such an approach recognizes that young people have the right to make their own choices and helps them make decisions that benefit society as a whole. In America faith-driven abstinence programs deny them that right -- "As a Christian I will only help you if you do what I say". The result is soaring rates of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.

Abstinence programs rest on the same weak intellectual foundation as creationism and intelligent design. Faith discourages unprejudiced analysis. Reasoning is subverted to rationalization that supports rather than questions assumptions. The result is a self-contained system that maintains an internal logic, no matter how absurd to outside observers.

The constitutional wall that theoretically separates church and state is irrelevant. Religion has overwhelmed the nation to permeate all public discussion. Look no further than Gary Bauer, a man who in any other western nation would be dismissed as a fanatic and who in America is interviewed deferentially on prime time television.

Despite all its fine words, religion has brought in its wake little more than violence, prejudice and intimate disease. True morality is found elsewhere. As UK Guardian columnist George Monbiot concluded in his review of Gregory Paul’s study, "if you want people to behave as Christians advocate, you should tell them that God does not exist."

And no I'm not missing the point. I accept they suffer from abuse. Tbh I have a big problem with a lot of media outlets and politicians too (infact - I think these systems need to be almost completely overhauled).. but imo - these things are more necessary than unprovable (and probably wrong*) beliefs in really, really old texts.

*Even if you don't accept the atheist stance.. There are other religions. If you add them up there will always be more religious people from other religions than there are from yours. You have your faith, they have theirs.

And yes you do get paedophiles in teaching, etc but like I said.. I read about priests being accused / convicted of touching kids almost every day. Teachers being accused are far far fewer.

 

[rickolasnice]

Have a bunch of questions for Christians about the New Testament, if I may?

Why do the genealogies of Joseph seem to differ in the Gospels of Matthew from The Gospels of Luke?

And why does it even matter if he wasn't Jesus' father in the first place?

 

[Raasyvibe]

Genesis was originally written in Hebrew not Greek. The Greek is a translation of the Hebrew original

Also, Genesis as it is in all extant versions is but fragments of long lost earlier books. No such thing as an original Genesis really. Just a case of which version you favour really



Since when was Islam an Eastern religion?!? Christianity started further east than Islam did :D

Besides, is one of the Abrahamic religions anyway so the Muslims are your spiritual cousins

Look, stop proof-reading and nit-picking at all my posts smarty pants. ESPECIALLY when you still owe responses backdating at least 5 months now as it is. And all the smiley's in the world won't gloss that fact over. -

"Islam is the world's second largest religion after Christianity. According to a 2010 study, Islam has 1.62 billion adherents, making up over 23% of the world population.[1][2]

Islam is the predominant religion in the Middle East, the Sahel, the Horn of Africa, North Africa,[3][4][5][6] and some parts of Asia."

"The largest Muslim country is Indonesia, home to 12.7% of the world's Muslims, followed by Pakistan (11.0%), India (10.9%), and Bangladesh (9.2%).["

Is that Easterly enough for you!?

that's for you raas. i think there's some good bits in it.

raas, do you believe or do you know?

awww why thank you.

I'm in the know, actually. Belief isn't an issue for me any more, and something that will never change.

Don't get me wrong my relationship with God is all over the place, and I do wonder frequently whether he's my friend or enemy... But his existence is knowledge to me, f'shaw.

all the muslims i teach KNOW that the fact that a chewed piece of chewing gum looking like an embryo is proof of allah coz something said years ago that the embryo looks like something that has been chewed. they know that the day of judgement will be a friday. I don't like the protection given to islam from questions. I want to know more about the kaaba but I'm hitting a brick wall!

What the?

Funny how they will be a bit weary of "christians" but say yer a catholic and that's ok. Why is that?

#

Really!??

Do you do god worship? see, I don't think that this deity wants worship, it just wants a helping hand in keeping things in order. I love all the nonsense I've been reading that goes on about people being tricked into worshipping the wrong god (most often satan) your intetntion is your intention, and if yer directing yer worship to what you believe is wholesome then I can't see how it would please old nick.

What!??

What do you think of the serpent business? It's all very confusing when you start looking into it.

Yeah i'm with you here. You gotta be really careful which snakes you sell to who - for instance theres the Striped California king Snake and the branded California King snake yet they both have stripes on them, in fact the branded version is even stripier. How are people meant to know which is which?

Again, raas. I know religion can be and is used for good. I never said otherwise.

What good has religion done for you, if you don't mind me asking?

I'll continue this later... Honestly have a cracking headache again today. Not sure what's causing this. *cough... gin* Struggling to put a sentence together.

 

[Shambles]

Wasn't nitpicking, Raas. Islam began in what is now Saudi Arabia. Christianity began in what is now Israel. Israel is east of Saudi Arabia so by definition Christianity is more "Eastern" than Islam. I also said that it was a stupid distinction to make as they are such closely related religions. "Eastern religions" would generally refer to Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto and so on. The ones that many people in the West tend to regard nearer philosophy than religion (although I suspect the devotees of those particular religions may beg to differ).

The Greek/Hebrew point that you didn't respond to was the one that had some significance, of course. When you base your whole argument on "the original Greek text" when there is no such thing it kinda scuppers anything you said relating to it really. I am deadly slow at responding to points, I know. You are deadly for responding to anything other than the point

I haven't forgotten about the post I owe ya (although pointing out that you are basing at least part of the argument I am supposed to be responding to on "the original Greek" does have some relevance, no?) but have been distracted by various things. Real life trumps religious noodlings every time. I'll always come back to religious noodlings cos it's fun. But only when I'm in the mood cos it's also a bit of a slog sometimes - especially if it's getting a bit specific cos that means brushing up on details and providing the odd source here and there.

 

[Raasyvibe]

Right, the headache is gone and I can finally approach these questions more analytically. I just needed a drop of Gordons. And tonight with passionfruit and Mangoes, Shambles. I'll tell you later how it worked

The Greek/Hebrew point that you didn't respond to was the one that had some significance, of course. When you base your whole argument on "the original Greek text" when there is no such thing it kinda scuppers anything you said relating to it really. I am deadly slow at responding to points, I know. You are deadly for responding to anything other than the point

.

No I didn't respond because it's such a small irrelevent point and didn't want to waste time with it. But, now you've bought it up, I'll do it just for you: I'm missing Family Tree on BBC 2 where Tom suspects his father competed in the 1948 olympics. But Fiiine:

You are correct in what you say. I've got my Hebrew mixed up with my Greek. But it's an irrelevant point. It was through bad translation from the original text that the contradiction appeared. My point was true, you're just knitpicking on the details.

Wasn't nitpicking, Raas. Islam began in what is now Saudi Arabia. Christianity began in what is now Israel. Israel is east of Saudi Arabia so by definition Christianity is more "Eastern" than Islam. I also said that it was a stupid distinction to make as they are such closely related religions. "Eastern religions" would generally refer to Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto and so on. The ones that many people in the West tend to regard nearer philosophy than religion (although I suspect the devotees of those particular religions may beg to differ).

I was referring to the current populace rather than the religions orientation. Most Muslims seem to the east of us so, without too much thought on the matter, I described the religion as "Easterly". I guess Bhuddism and Hinduism are considered more Eastern, because of their orientation... but again, you're knitpicking on details and missing the actual point of what I was saying.

Living life a "purer" life because of what the bible says is bullshit. It's all based on controlling people because of what some story book says. And people don't need religion for morals. That hypothesis is long outdated and very, very debunked. It's also bullshit that people do live better lives because of religion.

Oh Nickolas. Your avatar is shocking. I see you're atheist-to-da-max right now.

Think there's just something you don't understand about religion, something you do not see. That secret ingredient that makes it all work.

A purer life is certainly not a load of bullshit. This is the beauty of it - faith in God gives us confidence to recognise and dissociate from all egoism and evil influences present in the world. I'm sure you can live in a moral way without God, yes, but I think you'll have trouble living in such a pure spiritual way

 

[rickolasnice]

Is that all I get?

I like how you added "spiritual" into the mix. What if there is no such thing as spirit. The mind, brain and body are all just part of the physical realm (as all evidence points to).

And yes it is bullshit. You are basing rules and regulations of what you should and shouldn't be on faith based on ancient texts rather than rationality and moral reasoning.

The only reason you would consider your life more "purer" (whatever the fck that means) than mine is because of your bible.. nothing else.

And hey your avatar scares me. I don't wanna know what's under that trap door :'(

 

[rickolasnice]

So why are Matthew and Lukes account of Josephs and Jesus' genealogy different?

And why does it matter anyway? Surely the prophecy fails at the point it was a "virgin birth"..

 

[Raasyvibe]

Is that all I get?

I like how you added "spiritual" into the mix. What if there is no such thing as spirit. The mind, brain and body are all just part of the physical realm (as all evidence points to).

And yes it is bullshit. You are basing rules and regulations of what you should and shouldn't be on faith based on ancient texts rather than rationality and moral reasoning.

The only reason you would consider your life more "purer" (whatever the fck that means) than mine is because of your bible.. nothing else.

And hey your avatar scares me. I don't wanna know what's under that trap door :'(

nawww... I got a bigger post brewing in my mind. I'm fed up of knitpicking on smaller points and want to up the game a little here.... I want to relate religion to greater life issues and see it's relevance and foundation for my own faith.

Sadly my method of curing a Gin induced headache, by drinking even more Gin for some reason hasn't worked. So please, let these issues reside in my subconscious for now... and let me surprise you in a day or 2 with a fuller response.

 

[Shambles]

Nitpicking: How is it nitpicking when you got the language wrong? You're just highlighting one of the things that people criticise about the Bible - it's badly translated from translations of translations. There is no "original text". It's all translations of translations. There are (literally) millions or known translation problems in English language Bibles. Millions. Yes most of 'em are pretty minor but certainly not all. Some of them are things that entire denominations have been spun off on. Some of it being proper doctrinal stuff. How do you know that the translation you favour is closer to the "correct" version when there is no "correct" version in existence?

To be fair, this doesn't apply quite so much to the NT so probably not such a worry for you. You have still failed to address any of the points I've raised regarding the real fundamental stuff in the OT that kinda makes the whole NT a nonsense though. You're saying that Genesis is allegorical (although you seem very vague on what it is actually allegorising and the suggestions you have made simply make no sense or are so trivial I can't believe you are seriously suggesting them). Okay, it's allegorical. What's that bizniz with wimminz and the Fruit of Knowledge allegorising? This is very important indeed cos the entire NT is utterly redundant without Original Sin remember.

So why are Matthew and Lukes account of Josephs and Jesus' genealogy different?

And why does it matter anyway? Surely the prophecy fails at the point it was a "virgin birth"..

Hehe. Always a classic. The answer is simple: cos it's all bollocks written by men trying to big up men. But Raas may have a different suggestion

 

[rickolasnice]

^ Just as the contradictions between Matthew, Luke and John about Jesus being born in Bethlehem.

John: He wasn't born in bethlehem.
Luke: He was born in Bethlehem after Joseph and Mary travelled there because Augustus ordered a census (for tax purposes) which meant Joseph had to go to his homeland.. Now because he was of Davids bloodline this apparently meant Bethlehem, even though it would have been 1000 years between David and Joseph (and the LOCAL census actually happened in 6AD, after Herods death)
Matthew: He was born there during Herods reign.

Oh me oh my.

Raas; Have you read the gospels of Thomas, Peter, Nicodemus, Philip, Bartholomew or Mary Magdalen?

 

[Raasyvibe]

^ No. fascinating readings though

(Mary) said, "I saw the Lord in a vision and I said to him, ‘Lord, I saw you today in a vision.’" He answered and said to me: “Blessed are you, that you did not waver at the sight of me. For where the mind is, there is the treasure." I said to him, "So now, Lord, does a person who sees a vision see it <through> the soul <or> through the spirit?"

Judas also, recently had his gospel discovered. Very interesting.

 

[Shambles]

And we do all understand that these books are not written by the people they are named after I trust, yes?

I've not read any of 'em really. Just bits and pieces. It does seem like all the good ones were the ones not chosen for inclusion in the Bible though. Quelle surprise.

 

[Raasyvibe]

^ ooh Shambles, you and your negativity towards religion. A dangerous circle.

Now, for the record... The pineapple and Mangoes treated the Gordons Gin magnificently. really a good mix. but religion wise you're due an arse-cracking... and it wont happen today... but maybe Friday... as I have the heart. and the effort, to bring you the truth.

And you'll ignore me, as you have done the past 10 times. I wonder why I waste the time taking you seriously.

But you have encroached upon new areas of the bible... you and ricko... that need seriously addressing, and I am a man with the heart to do so.

So stay tuned... and if you run away scared again from the truth.... then im giving up once and fo' all

 

[Shambles]

I don't ignore your posts, Raas. I just get kinda irked that you never respond to any of the real points I raise but spend ages responding to trivial stuff from the same posts. Also, as I said, real life always trumps religious noodlings so sometimes the moment just passes is all. I don't think you can accuse me of only ever larking about cos I've made plenty of "proper" posts here too.

And, I concur that pineapple and mango juices are great with gin. Never combined the two though I don't think. Been off the gin for a while now cos I was getting waaaaaaaaaay too fond of it

Oh, and I really don't see me being negative towards religion at all in that last post. Minor dig at the Bible being made up of the least interesting, most patriarchal, most traditional books yes. But that's hardly being negative about religion. That's just bleedin obvious. And the gospels were not written by the people they are named for. That is simply an undeniable fact. So where is the negativity?

 

[rickolasnice]

1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 2 And having made soft clay, he fashioned thereof twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when he did these things (or made them). And there were also many other little children playing with him.

3 And a certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed straightway and told his father Joseph: Lo, thy child is at the brook, and he hath taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and hath polluted the Sabbath day. 4 And Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Wherefore doest thou these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.

Naughty Jesus.

1 But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. 2 And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. 3 And straightway that lad withered up wholly, but Jesus departed and went unto Joseph's house. But the parents of him that was withered took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and accused him 'for that thou hast such a child which doeth such deeds.'

IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died.

Holy fucking shit Jesus calm down.

 

[Shambles]

Doesn't Lil Jesus push his mate off a roof to his death in one of 'em too? Resurrects him afterwards, mind. Nice like that is Jesus.

 

[rickolasnice]

^ Nah he doesn't push him his mate falls and dies. The adults accuse Jesus so Jesus resurrects the boy to tell them it wasn't him

He does, however, make a teacher fall on his face for insulting him (If i remember correctly; the teacher insults him because Jesus isn't good with the alphabet.. or he's just talking about it in a really weird, unnecessary way (as he talks about everything))

 

[Shambles]

Yeah cos after just dying and being resurrected you're gonna argue with the kid who just resurrected you :D

Some of those Lil Jesus stories made it into the Koran. The sparrows one I think and also the roof incident from memory. There's summat about Foetus Jesus in one of those "Lost Gospels" too, no?

 

[rickolasnice]

Haven't heard that one.. wonder what mischief he was getting up to in there.

Then the Lord Jesus calling the serpent, it presently came forth and submitted to him; to whom he said, "Go and suck out all the poison which thou hast infused into that boy"; so the serpent crept to the boy, and took away all its poison again. Then the Lord Jesus cursed the serpent so that it immediately burst asunder, and died.