EADD Theology Megathread

[Shambles]

So, inna nutshell, you're basically back to saying "You have to believe in it to understand it" again, Raas?

*yawn*

And you wonder why I don't bother replying to you 8)

You don't even seem to understand what I'm saying let alone rebut it so will pass and wait for somebody who has some idea of the actual subject and has basic comprehension skills. You've done nowt but answer weird personal interpretations of stuff I clearly wasn't saying so far when you've managed to answer anything at all. I may be shite at timely responses but at least I respond to what you say rather than what I thought you said.

Hopefully you'll do better with the next two answers (and ideally re-read the first to see how you managed to miss the points repeatedly) but if not I think we're done here

 

[NightsEpiphany]

May I interrupt and ask 1 question please..

 

[Shambles]

Of course you can, Jess.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

You're too kind.

What do you put your hope in?

 

[Shambles]

What do you mean?

 

[NightsEpiphany]

um... have you ever totally crumbled?

 

[Shambles]

Of course. Frequently.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

became nothing.. like death?

 

[Shambles]

Hard to say cos you're wording is highly subjective... but if you mean severely depressed then yes. Have been diagnosed with a variety of depressive conditions, been in and out of treatment since my mid-teens, got depression, schizophrenia and psychosis running up and down both sides of my family (suicide is the cause of the vast majority of deaths in my family tree) and am virtually the only member of my family who has never been sectioned (mainly cos I self-medicate heavily and have done my whole adult life). Am covered from head to foot in self-harm scars and have taken several overdoses in the past but none that did the job. I know a thing or two about depression and mental illness in general.

But what does that have to do with religion?

 

[Raasyvibe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsyOzVsVWKs

lmao, if the speakers actually worked on this machine I might retract the statement.

wait for somebody who has some idea of the actual subject and has basic comprehension skills

So, inna nutshell, you're basically back to saying "You have to believe in it to understand it" again, Raas?

Seems a bit hypocritical. As you don't appear to grasp the point I was making...

I'm way too tired to carry on tonight. I'll have a re-read next week

I'm off to listen to Cliff Richard.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

Hard to say cos you're wording is highly subjective... but if you mean severely depressed then yes. Have been diagnosed with a variety of depressive conditions, been in and out of treatment since my mid-teens, got depression, schizophrenia and psychosis running up and down both sides of my family (suicide is the cause of the vast majority of deaths in my family tree) and am virtually the only member of my family who has never been sectioned (mainly cos I self-medicate heavily and have done my whole adult life). Am covered from head to foot in self-harm scars and have taken several overdoses in the past but none that did the job. I know a thing or two about depression and mental illness in general.

But what does that have to do with religion?

For me so much. Its when you're in the most barren place that youre hungriest spiritually.

When you come to nothing where does that hope come from?


Edit: When your sitting on the floor, been crying for hours or days, no sleep, life is shite, always will be always was etc etc What is your hope? What makes you get up and keep going?

 

[Shambles]

I still don't really see what you are asking, Jess... When I'm at rock bottom there is no hope. I don't need hope - I know all things pass. Buddhists are fond of that approach too, I do believe. That's just basic common sense though - not religion.

Raas: You didn't seem to make any points as far as I can tell. Again. But maybe I'm just in a stroppy mood tonight so will chalk it up to that and try again another time. Maybe I just misread what you (didn't) say

 

[NightsEpiphany]

so reason breaks through the gloom?

 

[Raasyvibe]

Maybe I just misread what you (didn't) say

I'm trying to say when issues in life leave you unable to accept God, you tend to become unable to accept the theology also. Perhaps the deeper issues in your own life are what really need tackling, rather than the interpretation of scripture.

i'm being a bit assumptious here, I accept... and straying from the point a little bit

For me so much. Its when you're in the most barren place that youre hungriest spiritually.

When you come to nothing where does that hope come from?

Oh it's Jess. Damn you BL'rs changing your names. Thought we had another Christian on the board.

She makes a point. As said before, relationship trouble put me in my darkest hour... but someone said to me "these things happen for a reason". In my state of turmoil I was able to accept that pride and egoism exist in these relationships, and it was killing me. I'd really learnt from my depression and it left me open to Christian values towards sex and relationships.

I always thought they were stupid, but I could see I was wrong.

Thats the basis for what leaves me open to religious belief, when experiences in life appear to have happened for a reason... When life becomes a progressive learning experience it leaves you a little more open to God.

Clearly you haven't come out of your darkest hours in the same way...

 

[Shambles]

so reason breaks through the gloom?

Obviously not at the time. Things pass though. They always do. Whilst there not passing you just survive.

I'm trying to say when issues in life leave you unable to accept God, you tend to become unable to accept the theology also. Perhaps the deeper issues in your own life are what really need tackling, rather than the interpretation of scripture.

i'm being a bit assumptious here, I accept... and straying from the point a little bit

Feel free to psychoanalyse me at your will. I have my doubts you'll get very far but have a bash by all means :D

Once again you're back to having to believe to "understand" theology. This is simply not the case. There are plenty of atheist professors of theology. Surprisingly high percantage actually. Most being ex-Christians of one sort or another. They say the more you look into religions the more likely you are to decide they're all bunk dontcha know. I've been looking into 'em since early childhood and tend to agree

Fact is things do happen for a reason. It's called determinism. Am not a huge fan of determinism but does seem kinda inevitible really (natch). Even some of the Christian denominations agree... although I'm guessing they're not the ones you go in for. And obviously the determining factor in their case is the Bible rather than plain ol' physics. Difference is that the latter makes sense and can be proven time and time again whereas the former makes little sense aside from the elements of bogstandard common sense and philosophy woven through all religion - the wackier elements are either undemonstrable or easily disproved.

That aside, I don't replace religion with science. I don't replace religion with anything really. It's pointless so why would I need to?

 

[Raasyvibe]

There are plenty of atheist professors of theology. Surprisingly high percantage actually. Most being ex-Christians of one sort or another. They say the more you look into religions the more likely you are to decide they're all bunk dontcha know. I've been looking into 'em since Early childhood and tend to agree

Was reading a book by Christian theologian Alister McGrath , "The Dawkins Delusion" - a retort to "The God Delusion". He makes the point that both him and Dawkins are incredibly similar; both professors of Biology... yet how their understanding of God couldn't have contrasted any more.

Some make sense of it, some don't... but no-ones conclusively proven their point.

Even some of the Christian denominations agree... although I'm guessing they're not the ones you go in for. And obviously the determining factor in their case is the Bible rather than plain ol' physics. Difference is that the latter makes sense and can be proven time and time again

How do physics determine God doesn't exist then? Physics neither prove nor disprove God.





Or do they? Because I think if there was no God it is extremely improbable physics would come out like this -

...and now someones going to tell me "What about hurricanes and tsunamis and earthquakes".

I'm going bed...

 

[Shambles]

Physics neither prove nor disprove the existence of any deities. Well, actually it (and other things) do disprove some. Not the one you favour though. I never said it did. Again, completely missed my point 8):D

As for the "fine tuning" point I'm guessing you're trying to make... read actual physics and you'll discover there is no fine tuning argument.

As for Dawkins? His theology is pathetic. Can't really understand why anybody would even try to rebut it - it's moronic. Can't stand Dawkin's pisspoor attempts at arguing theology. And I've never read The God Delusion so can't comment on that either.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

I think of hope as something that breaks through the darkness. Inspiration seems to come out of nothing

I've learnt also that the voidy want to die kind of darkness always passes but for me there's a trust in God through the ordeal. Sometimes its a hanging on by a thread trust though.

And I'm never alone or rejected. There have been times in my life that I've felt that pain.. so I know it but knowing God is with me, loves me, forgives me and accepts me anaesthetises the pain.


Raas.. sorry i've confused a few people with the name change. I had a password head spin. I was signing off yella or jess for a while. Perhaps i'll do it for a bit longer ( if I remember)

So no i'm not another Christian. Plenty of people would argue with that title though raas I've just joined a new church after not going for several years.. I hope they are not too hard on me. Its Anglican high church (a lot of oldies ) so if theres any judgin i'll nick their biscuits or hide their zimmers.

I'm only joking.. they seem like really lovely people and the services really lift me. I have been to churches that are quite reactionary though... v stuck in their ways they are not right for me and I wouldn't be right for them.

Do you go to church atm Raas?

Jess

 

[Shambles]

I've never really seen hope as a part of depression for me, Jess. Am not big on hope really. Don't really have a need for it.

Inspiration is another matter. That is a thing of beauty. Great beauty. But it doens't spring from nothing - it springs from the unconscious. Same as most of our thoughts, feelings and emotions.

I have no need to trust in a deity I know not to exist cos... well.. what would I need it for? Especially the Christain deity who is a monster. Evil personified. I loathe and detest the very idea of such a being. It demeans humanity and makes me sad that such imaginary creatures can cause so much horror in the world. You'd be much better of without the crutch I can assure you. Believe in what's real and you'll cope with reality so much better. Truly

Nobody is with me. Nobody and nothing. I am alone in this universe and one day I will die and be gone. This "I" is also you. And everybody else. It feels so much better to realise and accept this. Then you know where you stand.

As for turning to the Christian god in times of "rock bottom"? Ya. I tried that a coupla times. Didn't really help. Prayers achieve nothing and churches tend to be shut whenever I've been desperate enough to go a-knocking. Yup - I really did get that desperate once. Was on an Easter Sunday. And not one church (there are several in this lil town) was open to me. Cos there is no god and nobody cares. Alternatively, they don't open til after 10am. Dunno. Got bored of waiting.

 

[NightsEpiphany]

You don't need to go to church if you ever feel that need again. Actually Jesus said 'your body is a temple' ( may have been in one of the epistles)...
Ok not all temples are in great nick on the outside lol... but inside, deep inside theres the Garbhagriha or Holy of Holies. You can wait for Him there. Or maybe Hes waiting for you there.

( is that naff?)