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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

EADD Theology Megathread - Book II - Exodus

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Yep, there's always something which cannot be explained. I myself lean towards the idea that many 'genuine' mediums are actually engaging in telepathic communication, rather than communicating with the dead. To me, this seems much more plausible scientifically speaking than any notion of an 'afterlife'.
 
The is no such thing as a genuine medium..

There is no telepathic communication and there is no communicating with the dead.. It's trickery.

NSFW:

I'm sensing a male.. M.. Matt, matthew? (no response) Maybe a Mike? Michael? Mick? (No response) It might be an N.. Nigel? Niel?
"My husband was called Nathan?"
Yes that's it Nathan. I'm getting a strong sense of love like a really.. loving vibe. (Checks out how old the person looks.. looks mid twenties).. I feel it was an untimely death.. too young to have passed on..
(Causes an emotional response in the person - the want for it to be true is strengthened to stupidity)
He's telling me.. He was your husband? You two were married yes?
(In tears and overwhelmed that he knows this) Yes!
Yes he's showing me.. It was a beautiful wedding.. the happiest day of his life..
I sense that it was a very untimely death.. There was some kind of accident? Maybe a car accident or or or..?
(Confused look)
(Quickly carries on) Or an illness.. (sees the confused look lift).. He was sick.. He spent a lot of time in hospital..
Yes regularly
He's telling me it was a disease.. (gauges reaction).. he was sick a lot.. He liked to drink a lot or maybe smoke or..
(Nods)
Yes im getting a.. it was something in the upper torso area like around here (waves around the chest).. the lungs..
(OHMERGERD)
Fucking cancer..
He's asking a book.. does that mean anything to you?
Ummm I don't..
Like a special book like maybe a story book?
Ummmm..
Or it could be a photo album?
:'( We lost our wedding photo's when we moved house..
Yes that's right.. well.. he says keep looking

He was very loyal, especially to his friends and family.. He was generally confident, calm and collected but could feel insecure at times, especially with people he didn't know well. He loved to make people laugh. Etc etc..

But he wants you to know he's safe, he's happy.. He wants me to tell you he looks over you every day, he's always with you.. He is so proud of you.


Watch this while keeping in mind my very bad, fictional scenario^: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8EqdUYqlpY
This is long but well worth a watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X56Kmbgn6dE
 
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I do go on when I'm on the stims, huh?

raas.. pleaasse! Talk to meeeeee :'(

NSFW:

Don't focus on this but:

raas said:
Christianity collects too many goodie-2-shoe types. It gives the religion a bad name. Remember Jesus rebelled against the government... and this is what it's all about: Compassionate, righteousness and truth... and when something interferes with this, be it the government a corperation, your parents or friends.... you rebel against them.

Romans 13 said:
1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. 3 For the authorities do not frighten people who are doing right, but they frighten those who do wrong. So do what they say, and you will get along well. 4 The authorities are sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government for two reasons: to keep from being punished and to keep a clear conscience.

:p
 
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Yep, there's always something which cannot be explained. I myself lean towards the idea that many 'genuine' mediums are actually engaging in telepathic communication, rather than communicating with the dead. To me, this seems much more plausible scientifically speaking than any notion of an 'afterlife'.

Slightly different topic, but speaking of telepathy, all of my prophetic dreams have been telepathy and not sequential. Although two of them were strange but not sure if they are warnings or not.
Dream 1, I was in a field where there was this crane thing (the type the demolishes houses) and someone called Michael died.
and one I had when 16 about someone with short red hair hated me n tried to destroy me. Was literally freaked for months after that.

Anyway my point is that yes I agree on the telepathy but with things such as mediumship / prophets, it is extremely difficult to get Scientific evidence it is more based on having an open mind / faith than anything else.

Sorry for the weird post by hayho.

The human brain is amazing and can contain as well as the small bit that thinks it's you, various other 'persons', inclduing models of other people, and even the ultimate wisdom of all humanity: what freud called the superego, or we might call conscience (i can't think how to spell that atm), or we might call 'god within us'. When it feels like it, our 'subconscious' can take on the role of god for us (it's where we got the idea from after all), and pretty convincingly so (or satan, or the NWO, VALIS, ECC etc).

In modern times, when this happens intensely it seems more likely it'll be pathological, but sometimes (more in older days) it can happen non-pathologically and spit out some pretty cool wisdom - most old cultures have a defined role for people who might start 'hearing voices', so these people have a place and their 'psychosis' is allowed to develop within a (relatively) stable and healthy framework (not just 'shamanic' societies - most cultures have a place for mystics, religious wildmen etc, including medieval christians).

In the west where there isn't such a role, too often these 'special' people become the 'mental' people who noone understands. There's a million or so years of evolution behind us which had found a use for these mental types - if there was no useful role for these types of people in a society they wouldn't still be here - our job now should be to find/develop/remember a similar use for them now (eg we could bring back shamanism ;))

...

I have experienced some mediumship which i couldn't put down to cold reading. I know that some mediums do what they do completely genuinely - they certainly don't think they're doing a derren brown. Whether the information they sometimes get came from just really good intuition (or subconscious cold reading), telepathy, or actual communication with an afterlife i don't know. (my hunch would be intuition (ie the power of the brain in action) though at a certain level of power, intuition becomes indistiguishable (to us) from telepathy).

Great post this - makes sense!

Evey
 
Slightly different topic, but speaking of telepathy, all of my prophetic dreams have been telepathy and not sequential. Although two of them were strange but not sure if they are warnings or not.
Dream 1, I was in a field where there was this crane thing (the type the demolishes houses) and someone called Michael died.
and one I had when 16 about someone with short red hair hated me n tried to destroy me. Was literally freaked for months after that.

Why were you freaked? Did someobdy called Michael get killed by a crane shortly after your dream? Did a ginger person really try to destroy you?

Or were they just bizarre dreams of the type which everybody has from time to time?
 
Premonition dreams. i've had them a few times but its pretty much coincidence
 
I had a lot but about personal stuff concerning family n friends but couldn't tell the different between them n ordinary ones so when I had nightmares I'd be scared it was some sort of warning so I prayed to God that I'd stop getting them n I've not had them since. I even dreamt my pregnancy and they name to give her. No word of a lie.

Evey
 
I had a lot but about personal stuff concerning family n friends but couldn't tell the different between them n ordinary ones so when I had nightmares I'd be scared it was some sort of warning so I prayed to God that I'd stop getting them n I've not had them since. I even dreamt my pregnancy and they name to give her. No word of a lie.

Evey

And did you end up choosing that same name? Spooky!
 
A lot of the time when dreams come true and it isn't a coincidence.. it's just your brain giving you that "I dreamt this!" feeling when something happens, a bit like deja vu.. leading people to believe they had a dream about what is happening..

You didn't.
 
Rick then please PROVE to me that I didn't. Plenty of people could vouch that I have had prophetic dreams because many a time I have told them that I have dream such n such n then it has happened. Had I not have became anxious over some stuff n torn up all my diaries I had a lot of "evidence" that my dreams have come true. And trust me it's not all the glorious it appears to be. Having prophetic dreams is a curse. Because most of them, apart from the pregnancy, were bad things - so I believe that it was warnings. But they never came in specific events like a soap, was just weird scenes using telepathy. The point is I can't prove to you---or anyone else, it's your choice, whether or not you choose to believe me is up to you - but it makes no difference to my life one way or the other :)

Evey
 
Burden of proof is on you.

If you did actually dream something that then happened.. it'd be because you thought (either consciously or subconsciously) that it was a possible outcome.
 
The is no such thing as a genuine medium..

There is no telepathic communication and there is no communicating with the dead.. It's trickery.

...

But i can assure you there are some (few) mediums who aren't consciously tricking anyone, and aren't taking part in cold reading. Isn't that a genuine medium? Whether what they find out is bollocks or not, they're not all slyly trying to trick you (or me). Now you could say (i did) that then it's just their subconscious that is the derren brown, but in their own terms they're genuine (they're just as tricked as we are).

I can certainly concieve that their intuition consists of some inscrutable cold reading-type process going on in the 'sub-conscisous'. But that process is almost as mysterious to us as telepathy really (or synonomous). What is intuition? What process does it work by?

I've had premonitions - and they definitely weren't me just having some neurochemical-based feeling which convinced me that i had remembered something that i hadn't. I actually did remember it - i had the memory beforehand, then it happened - i recognised it because i had the memory. Maybe my subconscious somehow knew what was going to happen thropugh perfectly scientific means, but again we're back to the mystery of intuition.

I also know someone very closely who has had two 'death apparitions' (loved ones appeared to her at the moment of their death with no possible knowledge of the death until later). This is a very well attested phenomena worldwide (especially after WW1) - how do you explain this? (without resorting to character assasination). I'd be more inclined to believe in 'telepathy' than 'afterlife' in both cases, but am agnostic - i'd be happy for a more naturalistic explanation, though by what process does something that was once supernatural become naturalistic (and is the collapse of the quantum waveform supernatural? or cosmic inflation? dark matter/energy? (they're all certainly mysterious)).
 
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^but genuniely 'mental' rather than pretending to be 'mental' for money. I'm not going to judge other people as mental who aren't actually exhibiting pathological behaviour, as i'd be too scared of the classification being turned on me :). Just different beliefs and different way to access their subconscious doesn't quite qualify for me.
 
But i can assure you there are some (few) mediums who aren't consciously tricking anyone, and aren't taking part in cold reading. Isn't that a genuine medium? Whether what they find out is bollocks or not, they're not all slyly trying to trick you (or me). Now you could say (i did) that then it's just their subconscious that is the derren brown, but in their own terms they're genuine (they're just as tricked as we are).

I am aware there are some mediums who aren't out to trick people.. I don't know how but they are simply unaware of what the Forer affect actually is plus saying that someone will "meet someone new soon" is a guess that is very ambiguous and the person will likely never know the accuracy of anyway. They meet someone, they give em a few barnum statements, ask a few questions, use basic intuition to guess / tell the person a few things about their life (in a way that sounds unsure incase it's wrong).. if it's wrong they will quickly say the other only possible answer and expand on that using obvious guesses.

Then they will "read their future".. They'll guess a bunch of stuff that have no time limit and no definite meaning (such as you will come into fortune, you will meet someone, a big opportunity will present itself to you)..

The person leaves thinking "oooh i wonder who I'm going to meet?" to then either completely forget about it, make some cosmic link between the reading and a menial meeting or coincidentally meet someone that turns out to be important.. (if the person is single then the chances of them "meeting someone" is very fucking likely at some point).. Or there is the possibility / probability (depending on the person) that the person will actively seek out whatever the psychic / medium told them.

I can certainly concieve that their intuition consists of some inscrutable cold reading-type process going on in the 'sub-conscisous'. But that process is almost as mysterious to us as telepathy really (or synonomous). What is intuition? What process does it work by?

Tis the result of the most complex thing known to man doing it's thing.. Subconsciousness, intuition etc are mysterious, true.. but telepathy, psychics, etc are not mysterious.. they are very much understood..

I've had premonitions - and they definitely weren't me just having some neurochemical-based feeling which convinced me that i had remembered something that i hadn't. I actually did remember it - i had the memory beforehand, then it happened - i recognised it because i had the memory. Maybe my subconscious somehow knew what was going to happen thropugh perfectly scientific means, but again we're back to the mystery of intuition.

How can you say it wasn't a strange brain function that caused that feeling / false memory when everything you think, feel and remember is a brain function.. it can be impossible to distinguish between the two..

Care to give me an example of what you're talking about? I have "known" many things were going to happen.. sometimes it's because it's the most probable scenario, sometimes it's a possible scenario I just reckon will happen.. it's one of the many possible outcomes of a given event so why not..

Sometimes you wake up with a random thought about someone you haven't seen or spoken to in a long time to then run into them that day.. Premonition? Psychic abilities? Or do you often have thoughts like this that are forgotten about and never thought about again once you don't run into that person. Etc etc.. Premonitions are nothing more than a thought about the future which turned out to be true, ignoring the thousands of other thoughts that don't.

I also know someone very closely who has had two 'death apparitions' (loved ones appeared to her at the moment of their death with no possible knowledge of the death until later). This is a very well attested phenomena worldwide (especially after WW1) - how do you explain this? (without resorting to character assasination). I'd be more inclined to believe in 'telepathy' than 'afterlife' in both cases, but am agnostic - i'd be happy for a more naturalistic explanation, though by what process does something that was once supernatural become naturalistic (and is the collapse of the quantum waveform supernatural? or cosmic inflation? dark matter/energy? (they're all certainly mysterious)).

Well I would resort to character assassination.. It's a lot more likely that the person has invented that memory subconsciously for whatever reason (or no reason).. Losing a loved one is tough.. of course you're going to want them to still be there.. somewhere.. It's a lot more likely that a common way the human brain copes with the death of a loved one is to "remember" their ghostly selves visiting you to comply with your want, your need for them to not be.. gone.. Why do the spirits not return? Leave a message? Show themselves to others?

Most supernatural claims can be easily tested and studied despite what a lot of "spiritualists" will say. "How can you measure the metaphysical world with physical instruments?" It's not hard.. as soon as the supernatural or metaphysical presents itself as a thought it can be documented by the person.. So you have premonitions of the future? Write down every one.. post it on a blog.. see how many come true. So you speak to the dead? Ok.. What of my grandfathers possessions did i lose and where did i lose it? So you can leave your physical body? What's behind that door? (And I've had some people say "Yeah but sometimes you can't control it like that!" Oh ok so it only works when there's nobody there to test you.

NSFW:

A few personal experiences I've had that, if i was of a certain inclination, i would have perceived to be supernatural (last one is actually worth reading imo)

I have experienced very strange things.. like me and my girlfriend having, almost, the exact same dream (she was dropping lighters, i was picking them up) in the same night.. every detail shared fit perfectly with the others dream. So what happened? We simply "remembered" whatever the other was saying as being part of their dream.. Maybe.. Or we'd spend so long doing the same things going to the same places etc that we actually did dream very similar dreams..

Coincidences that are are so improbably that it's almost as if it makes more sense if there was some cosmic connection..

Me and my friend both saw.. i don't know how to describe it.. It was a pure white light about the size of.. i don't know.. the width of a cigarette (including the glow) that appeared and seemed to "fly" in a curved line almost turning back on itself above a table and benches outside of a club.. He was perfectly sober.. I was on amphetamine.. There was a lot of people around but because nobody was actually sitting at the table nobody was looking that way. My memory of the events was seeing it.. thinking wtf? then noticing my mate looking at the general area with a confused look.. I asked him if he saw that and he said yeah what was that? I said what did you see? (So he couldn't just say he saw whatever i said) and he described the light and what it did..

Now i still have no idea wtf that was but it sure as hell wasn't a dead person or fairy.. It's entirely possible that i looked surprised / confused.. my mate looked at me wondering why i was confused.. me asking if he saw it, him saying yeah what was it? then me saying "did you see that light blah blah" and him just going along with it..



None of the things you mentioned are supernatural.. There is a big difference between strange, not yet fully understood and a mathematical probability than a belief in abilities that are easily debunked (and have been hundreds of times)..

Soooo not on stims..
 
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Can i do the long answer later and just do the very last point for now?

Semantically is there an actual difference between saying something is supernatural and not being able to account for something with known 'natural' parameters? It doesn't matter if some people think something 'should' be solvable in principle - they might be wrong (that's sort of the point). That's saying nothing about whether or not someone believes it (people believe all sorts of stuff).

Just defining something as natural or supernatural doesn't really say anything about the phenomena in question - that works both ways (ie whether dismissing something not yet discovered/proven as supernatural, or believing in something counter to obvious evidence). Good science is humble enough to say 'we don't know for certain, but here's the best guess so far - prove me wrong'

I will do the rest later (maybe sooner if i join you on the stims ;))
 
Just to start off - i'm agnostic so i don't know ;) - but i tend to want to jump in to defend uncertainty in the face of absolute-sounding claims. Most of the actual science that backs up the certainty isn't actually as certain as the concepts based on it become (the whole idea and nature of knowledge is contested in epistemiology). Most science becomes metaphor for most people, and we often extend the metaphor without justification from the actual reality (and often need a totally new metaphor (the territory not the map and all that).

Your characterisation of a medium is a little ungenerous - you're basically describing a seaside fortune teller (who do probably make up the bulk of the profession), but mediums/psychics can be a lot more sophisticated than 'you'll meet a tall dark stranger' (most 'proper' mediums/psychis don't do that anyway, more talk about you now). Seems like a straw man really (like arguing against religion but only dealing with the bible/quran).

Mediums and psychic activity have been with humanity from the start (judging by hunter gatherers) - at the very least they have an evolutionary function along with the rest of shamanic tradtions (and maybe we should wait till we truly understand that social function before writing them off inherently).

I'm totally prepared to accept the likelihood that psychics/mediums get their stuff (what there is of it) from 'natural' means (it's the most obvious answer after all), but i can also entertain the possibility that underneath it all is a tenuous access to some as yet scientifically-undiscovered 'collective unconsciousness' (or some such hippy/hindu concept), and that the best way to get access to this is through our inuition (meaning it will always come across as flaky). There's enough leeway in physics (and not just for the new age version) for me not to dismiss it completely; plenty for some new einstein to turn what we know on it's head (it's sort of inevitable that the next big move will do this due to the contradictory things that will need to be tied up).

I also entertain this idea partly due to 'empirical' subjective experience (ie ego death) suggestive of this sort of reality (magical thinking probably, and no help/relevance to anyone else). My intellect wants to be reductionist and leave it at that, but i've learned not to trust my intellect totally when it comes to existential questions (because it's biased towards materialism, and it's own future pleasure (bias is bias)). My intellect usually gets the upper hand, and i come down on the side of the genuine medium 'hits' being the marvel of intution (not that much of a mystery in itself, just in the mechanism). When the medium is genuine (consciously), i still can see possible value in someone who may be more in touch than most with their intuitional powers (same as a musician or snooker player (or medium as emotional Sherlock)).

Saying all that, i'd go with your Barnum version in nearly all actual professional mediums (and probably the 'good' ones do barnum stuff when the juices aint flowing too (i see how easy i'm making your arguments ;)).

How can you say it wasn't a strange brain function that caused that feeling / false memory when everything you think, feel and remember is a brain function.. it can be impossible to distinguish between the two..

Well it's about the linearity of the memory, and multiple sequential recalls before the actual event - but we can't be certain about anything we perceive ultimately (descartes problem) - i'm as sure as about anything else i know though (which isn't that sure i'm sure (or am i?)). I don't want to go into the details too much but it was pretty vague anyway (i didn't write down any lottery numbers or take a photo of a clock) - it was visual memories of a particular scenario/mix of people seen at a certain viewpoint (and me being on drugs won't help my credibility here) - this is more subjective empiricism for me only i guess. [/copout]

I'm totally willing to accept the probability that there was no real information sent from the future to the past (again most obvious), but i can definitely entertain the idea that there was somehow (again based on how i perceived time to work when in ego death states - no currency with a scientist, but suggestive to me, being such a 'real' experience; but also because it doesn't really clash too much with my reading of physics (given a (hindu) assumption or two)).

As far as death apparitions - it wouldn't matter if it was 'made up' she told several people about the vision before the information about the death arrived, both times. And she didn't randomly go around saying she'd had visions of relatives any other times. This has also been the case for numerous examples in the 'literature' - this is written off as anecdotal evidence by most 'science' because it can't be repeated/tested (ethical problems there), which is effectively saying thousands of people are lying - i 'know' it's not the case in at least two instances, so assume it could be true in at least some of the others - this seems more scientific to me (if i accept truth from another human i know well (science would have trouble here)). If this was the reality (ie telepathy), it may need other science to change to account for the discrepancy (though i'm not sure it does (chuck in entangled particles or a string theory dimension). I'm not really convinced with the approach that says: 'because science says it can't be, it can't be' (it's circular logic) - if it is, it is (it's still a big if, but an if nonetheless, and one science will have to answer if it gets smaller (that's another big if ('if off!')).

I think we have problems in our culture with the over-reductionist materialist and behaviourist philosophy which dominated our science in the 20th century (and was bloody useful in many ways (deadly in others (especially to dogs and pigeons)); it often can't accept anything that can't be measured a certain way (like internal thought landscapes) - and it just pretends they don't exist/matter. Quantum physics worked it's way through our philosophy in the meantime, so we seem to be growing out of this simplistic reductionism/materialism now. In terms of ambiguity, the new and important meta-science of complexity can't even agree how to define or measure complexity itself - this doesn't make it bad science, it just means there are even more complex concepts to understand than the ones we've come to accept in the current paradigm are the mechanisms of reality.
 
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