EADD Benzo Discussion V. Waking up in a Wakefield skip

[Fertile]

I find it amazing that 'street valium' costs £1 a pill.

Now I'm all to aware that they aren't safe, but if the on-line retailers aren't providing accurate dosing when they charge 2-3 times as much... they must be making an absolute fortune,

Etifoxine (Stresam) is a French anxiolytic. Chemically it's structurally not a benzodiazepine but appears to work in a very similar manner. At least you can be FAIRLY sure that it will be real and will be the dose stated on the livery.

I'm not a doctor so don't think I'm saying etifoxine is safe for YOU, but with the amount of dubious benzos, it might prove to be the safer option. Of course their is no such thing as a 100% safe medicine.

 

[Delmonte421]

Yes - nitrazepam, nimetazepam, fludiazepam and clonazepam are all nitrobenzodiazepines. I think some IDIOT RC vendors have made things like flunitrazolam - and that stuff really will have a TI LOWER than heroin, for example.

We had 19 novel benzodiazepines made and tested, only 2 reached market in bulk - pyrazolam and diclazepam. Why? Because we KNEW that if someone took say 100 tablets then while they may be dazed and confused, they would be OK.

We even messed with nitrobenzodiazpines to see if we could make them less toxic. We did, but the compound was too costly. A shame, because those that tried it (pynazolam 10mg) all noted the huge euphoria. So we wondered WHY it was so euphoric. Because it's a huge serotonin releaser and reuptake inhibitor....

We even wanted to patent it as an antidepressant, but the rats & mice all self-administered like mad which is a good measure of how abusable a compound it is. It was not like diclazepam (for example) as rats trained to differentiate did not substitute pynazolam when they had been trained for doclazepam.

I was still pleased to discover we had NAILED why benzos are euphoric. It's a5b1y1 affinity - same subreceptor class as as alcohol. It's not even like alcohol, bit the a5b1y1 is WHY people enjoy benzos but Z-drugs are considered much less euphoric.

wow amazing that the mice were redosing that quickly.... just out of curiousty, I use to work in pre-clinical formulation, how are you formulating the drug for the mice, pill or liquid oral? and at what doses are you doing, meaning high medium low and control? Also what happens if your toxolcogy report came back pretty safe after your necropsy? do you move to the next animal in the animal kingdom genealogically, meaning animals closer to us? or do your studies stop at mice? Meaning do you move to apes eventually? Also how do you test for your metabolites? etc

 

[Fertile]

We worked with a team at Huntingdon Life Sciences for the animal models. Luckily the benzodiazepines were all soluble and stable enough to allow simple dH2O to be used as the carrier. I will have to find the paperwork they sent us (which was vast) but if memory serves we first found that non-dependent mice would self-administer the alcohol mimic. In alcohol-dependent mice, Pyeyzolam substituted fully. We could then study the dose-response curve of our alcohol mimic.

Mice were studied to see if their behavior was like that of out alcohol-dependent mice. We found that while alcohol produced aversion-resistant alcohol seeking behavior, pyeyzolam was much less aversion-resistant. But in mice who were formally alcohol-dependent and swapped to pyeyzolam the aversion dropped but was still higher i.e. we concluded that alcohol is rewarding but more dependence forming. BUT that if it were used to treat alcohol dependence, it MIGHT still pose some dependence issue.

The study showed that the conflict behavior seen in alcohol-depanent mice was not seen in those trained to self-administer pyeyzolam. That gave us an important insight since our ligand was very α5β2γ2 selective and alcohol is pretty non-selective BUT was known to primarily act on the α1 & α5 subunits. So we could tentatively infer that conflict is increased due to the α1 affinity.

I won't ramble on - it was a long time ago. But I know we tried x2 & x4 the alcohol and pyeyzolam to gain more insight into the dose-response, that behavioral studies were provided and when the mice were sacrificed the first toxicity data was provided.

As to finding the LD50 - that was tricky. It's well studied with regards to alcohol but mice simply couldn't poison themselves and so they had to dissolve the ligands in propylene glycol and inject it. Yes, eventually pyeyzolam WILL result display hypnotic activity but it was really huge doses needed when compared to substitute for ethanol.

If memory serve it was >0.5 mg/Kg whereas it displayed robust alcohol-like action at about 0.004 mg/kg which made us pretty happy.

I actually designed pyeyzolam to have a single metabolic pathway - in this case CYP3A4. But pyeyzolam is mostly excreted unchanged. That was important to us because if you end up with a lot of metabolites, you have to test them all. All we found was pyeyzolam, 2-hydorxy pyeyzolam and the gluconate of 2-hydroxy pyeyzolam. This is not impressive as their are so many metabolic studies on the benzodiazepines that it's possible to predict with a decent amount of certainty.

It was all very conservative indeed. Since then I've done further work and derived a new candidate to address the issues with pyeyzolam (steep dose-response and no α5β3 affinity). I can't show you that but I hope when I can, I can go through the process with you. Goodness knows it's hard to sit alone working on this stuff. You need someone to throw in ideas and to help spot the mistakes.

 

[Bleaney]

I got my Wedinos results back today and my Galenika Ksalol Alprazolam did turn out to be Bromazolam after all. I'm not hugely surprised having seen that a lot of these were testing this way. I didn't think that the pills tasted quite bitter enough to be Alprazolam, but couldn't be sure if that was just because it was a brand I'd not tried before.

I'm not massively bothered but not delighted either. I can't really tell what effect 1mg had as to whether it felt any different to regular alprazolam, seeing as etiz and alprazolam are chemically very simillar, and they feel similar too. And as Bromazolam is an analogue of Aplrazolam then it follows that should feel similar to the other 2. Which happen to be my main choice of benzos. I guess it was only a matter of time before I inadvertently ended up with Bromazolam judging by the test results in general on Wedinos of late. I will definitely consume it rather than ditch it. "Waste not want not" to quote a meaningless phrase. I never mind trying new benzos so will now get to see what bromazolam is all about. I will ideally need to take it in the absence of anything else to assess properly, but that's easier said than done these days seeing as the course my self medicating is taking me down at the moment.

The supply of etizolam on the clearnets seems to have suddenly completely dried up at the moment. Possibly gonna have to get back on the DNMs to see what's going on there these days. Not too keen to get back on there, due to concern about being tempted by all manner of other things that may or may not be available on there. Will have to see.

At least both batches of clonazepam that I bought tested fine. I wasn't sure about one batch as one blister didn't seem to be having any effect one night. I was just munching through one after the other in intervals, trying to get to sleep after taking some modafinil too late in the day, and the clonazepam just wouldn't knock the edge off it.

 

[Bleaney]

Benzodiazepines_ Half-life____Approximately Equivalent Oral dosages (mg)


Clonazepam _____18-50 ________________ 0.5 _____________

Diazepam
(Valium) ________20-100 ________________ 10 ______________

Hmm. So 1mg of etiz was said to be roughly equivalent to 10mg of diazepam. So as I was on almost 2mg of etiz daily that would equal 20 mg of diazepam, or 1.0 of Clonazepam. So I should be good on half of a 2mg clonazepam pill

However, that is the theory. In practice I really don't think that half a clonazepam will feel the same as 2mg of etizolam. No way. I'm not even sure if a whole 2mg of clonazepam will. In theory that should be 40 mg of diazepam or 4mg of etizolam.

It really doesn't add up or feel right. But I will try to start off on half a clonaz. I can always take more if it feels like it's an obvious cut to my usual stable dose.

 

[Delmonte421]

Benzodiazepines_ Half-life____Approximately Equivalent Oral dosages (mg)


Clonazepam _____18-50 ________________ 0.5 _____________

Diazepam
(Valium) ________20-100 ________________ 10 ______________

Hmm. So 1mg of etiz was said to be roughly equivalent to 10mg of diazepam. So as I was on almost 2mg of etiz daily that would equal 20 mg of diazepam, or 1.0 of Clonazepam. So I should be good on half of a 2mg clonazepam pill

However, that is the theory. In practice I really don't think that half a clonazepam will feel the same as 2mg of etizolam. No way. I'm not even sure if a whole 2mg of clonazepam will. In theory that should be 40 mg of diazepam or 4mg of etizolam.

It really doesn't add up or feel right. But I will try to start off on half a clonaz. I can always take more if it feels like it's an obvious cut to my usual stable dose.

Ive got the exact same pills but idk if min are real or the bromo shit
I was looking into it and some are real and some aren't, im paying top dollar but who knows/

 

[axe battler]

Benzodiazepines_ Half-life____Approximately Equivalent Oral dosages (mg)


Clonazepam _____18-50 ________________ 0.5 _____________

Diazepam
(Valium) ________20-100 ________________ 10 ______________

Hmm. So 1mg of etiz was said to be roughly equivalent to 10mg of diazepam. So as I was on almost 2mg of etiz daily that would equal 20 mg of diazepam, or 1.0 of Clonazepam. So I should be good on half of a 2mg clonazepam pill

However, that is the theory. In practice I really don't think that half a clonazepam will feel the same as 2mg of etizolam. No way. I'm not even sure if a whole 2mg of clonazepam will. In theory that should be 40 mg of diazepam or 4mg of etizolam.

It really doesn't add up or feel right. But I will try to start off on half a clonaz. I can always take more if it feels like it's an obvious cut to my usual stable dose.

IME 10mg diazepam is equivalent to about 1mg clonazepam or 1mg etizolam or 1mg alprazolam. Different effects though, the alprazolam feels stronger but not necessarily better for anxiety. Etizolam feels lighter and less sedating, a bit like the clonazepam The diazepam is more rounded. I also have a feeling that those Galenika Rivotril are possibly underdosed like most other Galenika pills, especially the diazepam.

 

[Bleaney]

Yeah I agree that the real clonazepam dose needs to be at least double what is stated on most on line equivalence charts (including the Ashton charts, and you'd expect that one to be right)

Something strange going on. Maybe it's just that Etizolam really is that much more effectve for anxiety, compared to more 'traditional' benzos, like diazepam and clonazepam.

I really need to actually put this to the test though as I don't know if half a clonaz really will be enough. Seeing as I've always previously taken the full 2mg, not knowing that was meant to be a quadruple strength 'standard benzo dose'

The thing is, I really dont think that 2mg of clonazepam is a quadruple strength standard benzo dose. Basing a standard dose on being 10mg Diaz, 1mg etiz, or 1mg xanax etc.

 

[Fertile]

The T1/2 of diazepam is generally considered to be so long because it has several active metabolites:

1-Temazepam
2-Nordiazepam
3-Oxazepam

I don't think etizolam or clonazepam have any active metabolites.

 

[Delmonte421]

yea I found that out the hard way when I thought I was clean and pissed hot for it as an idiot I didn't look into the half life

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Only street diaz (in fact only street pharma pills I ever got) cost me less than 2.5£ (not in UK ofc) for a 30 pills box, and got 1 box only!!! I bought it in what looked like an original packing and I wasn’t even aware there are any fake pills on market in my country. Price wasn’t surprising and I was asked for more at first but no one pays more than 6£ for a box of 30 anyway and it’s most prescribed pill in my country and it’s free with prescription. But when I got pill out of blister and put it into mouth I immediately decided not to take a lot of it as taste seemed a bit off (looked at a date it expires and it was same month I got it). I took 2 more when I got home (and that should have been just 15mg of diaz total) and it knocked me out, put me to sleep but not really a restful sleep. At that time I could have eaten 10 or 20 pills and stay awake if it was real diaz. After that I only used it at night to get me to sleep and whatever it was they weren’t dosed evenly and I’m almost sure it was some benzo, extremely potent hypnotic benzo as it was able to knock me out. If I wasn’t in a benzo hell I would surely keep few for testing, and will sure test it if I ever get them again as I suspect it wasn’t some small operation (because of box, blister pack and pills were made really good, at least judging look) and maybe something similar is still floating in the town I got it, so I probabbly should look into that more when I’ll be there again. I bet it’s some shitty benzo active in microgram range.

 

[Fertile]

I keep saying it - there are a generation of people who have become benzo-dependant due to RCs. I worked out that 1Kg of flunitrazolam would be worth £5 million (retail) BUT it will end and then vendors will scramble for the next thing.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

That’s for sure. Where I am (and it seems most everywhere) benzos were viewed as kinda last resort drug for most people (for recreational use) while more and more people end up abusing them because of availability of them as RC’s. While there is positive side of RC benzos being available, that’s for small group of people, for most getting from prescription benzos to RC’s is in a sense like getting from weed to spice.

 

[Fertile]

That’s for sure. Where I am (and it seems most everywhere) benzos were viewed as kinda last resort drug for most people (for recreational use) while more and more people end up abusing them because of availability of them as RC’s. While there is positive side of RC benzos being available, that’s for small group of people, for most getting from prescription benzos to RC’s is in a sense like getting from weed to spice.

We are going to see a lot of people taking more risky drugs (including alcohol) just to cope. It's going to be a disaster.~

I did all that 20 years ago and seizures and alcoholism were the result. And I was trying to taper but try tapering with short-duration high-potency benzos. It didn't work for me. Of course, YMV.

 

[Delmonte421]

stock up now on Xanax and valium, its cheap enough at 1$ a pill that you could buy a 1000 of each and that should also you longer then the pill it self will hold together.

 

[Fertile]

stock up now on Xanax and valium, its cheap enough at 1$ a pill that you could buy a 1000 of each and that should also you longer then the pill it self will hold together.

I cannot speak of other nations, but in the UK, diazepam is the usual mediation for treating (1,4) benzodiazepine dependence. I ended up using 24mg of diclazepam a day and it took 360mg of diazepam to prevent abstinence syndrome. It took a year to get down to nothing. Actually, when it reached 10mg diazepam [TID] I just stopped. Since then ONLY the very high potency (high affinity) analogues have an effect.

I'm not suggesting people break the law, but truly, if you end up with my level of dependence, it took approximately 6500 x 10mg diazepam for me to stop.

I'm not a legal expert BUT I believe in the US it is totally legal to buy up to a 6 month supply of any prescribed medication (because people may travel to other nations for extended periods. Now I don't know how easy it is to obtain a diazepam prescription as doctors know how addictive they are. But their ARE a few specific conditions for which it is indicated.

So from what I understand, as long as you can present A prescription, it's legal to obtain an entire 168 day supply (I presume that the US ACTUALLY gives 28-day repeats).

It's never a good idea to lie to your doctor, but I'm also acutely aware that if they have any kind of record of your using non-prescribed drugs, they will be VERY cautious. In my own case I had some VERY unusual symptoms. I didn't plan to scam the doctor, I went in with said symptoms and was surprised to essentially be told 'you will be taking these for the rest of your life'. On the surface that sounds great... but then ask how long that might be in practice.

I hope someone in the US can chip in because I REALLY can see RC benzos disappearing overnight leaving a huge tole in damaged people. Remember - if it's used medically it is a schedule IV drug. The DEA has essentially made all of the RC benzos schedule I.

 

[Delmonte421]

I cannot speak of other nations, but in the UK, diazepam is the usual mediation for treating (1,4) benzodiazepine dependence. I ended up using 24mg of diclazepam a day and it took 360mg of diazepam to prevent abstinence syndrome. It took a year to get down to nothing. Actually, when it reached 10mg diazepam [TID] I just stopped. Since then ONLY the very high potency (high affinity) analogues have an effect.

I'm not suggesting people break the law, but truly, if you end up with my level of dependence, it took approximately 6500 x 10mg diazepam for me to stop.

I'm not a legal expert BUT I believe in the US it is totally legal to buy up to a 6 month supply of any prescribed medication (because people may travel to other nations for extended periods. Now I don't know how easy it is to obtain a diazepam prescription as doctors know how addictive they are. But their ARE a few specific conditions for which it is indicated.

So from what I understand, as long as you can present A prescription, it's legal to obtain an entire 168 day supply (I presume that the US ACTUALLY gives 28-day repeats).

It's never a good idea to lie to your doctor, but I'm also acutely aware that if they have any kind of record of your using non-prescribed drugs, they will be VERY cautious. In my own case I had some VERY unusual symptoms. I didn't plan to scam the doctor, I went in with said symptoms and was surprised to essentially be told 'you will be taking these for the rest of your life'. On the surface that sounds great... but then ask how long that might be in practice.

I hope someone in the US can chip in because I REALLY can see RC benzos disappearing overnight leaving a huge tole in damaged people. Remember - if it's used medically it is a schedule IV drug. The DEA has essentially made all of the RC benzos schedule I.

The US will never top its war on drugs.... its too much of a money maker for the jailing system and other economies that are stuck in there ways of making money that way.
America is on the verge of changing its drug laws but they are in NO WAY as progressive as Netherlands or the Swiss or even canada

 

[Fertile]

The US will never top its war on drugs.... its too much of a money maker for the jailing system and other economies that are stuck in there ways of making money that way.
America is on the verge of changing its drug laws but they are in NO WAY as progressive as Netherlands or the Swiss or even canada

I'm just giving people an 'escape plan'. Opioid withdrawal is awful, but benzo withdrawal can kill (and has). So I'm simply setting out, based on what I know, of how to get out NOW.

I think the DEA is sending a clear message. If you choose to ignore it and keep on doing flunitrazolam - you will find out how nasty it is. Even before the diclazepam-fest, I got a clonazepam habit. I didn't FEEL too sick but I developed twitches and then jerks (painful ones) and then I kept falling over due to leg twitches. So the doctor GAVE me clonazepam.

I reckon that's fair warning. It's 20 years later and I still need clonazrpam not so suffer myoclonus. You cannot fake it - it's sudden jerks in arms and legs. I need and use crutches so the doctor knew they HAD to do something. I swapped to clobazam because it's less dependence forming and has a host of other significant increased safety factors.

But I'm stuck on 40mg/day for life. Free in the UK (epilepsy treatment is always free) but US users.... it will not go welll.

 

[Delmonte421]

I'm just giving people an 'escape plan'. Opioid withdrawal is awful, but benzo withdrawal can kill (and has). So I'm simply setting out, based on what I know, of how to get out NOW.

I think the DEA is sending a clear message. If you choose to ignore it and keep on doing flunitrazolam - you will find out how nasty it is. Even before the diclazepam-fest, I got a clonazepam habit. I didn't FEEL too sick but I developed twitches and then jerks (painful ones) and then I kept falling over due to leg twitches. So the doctor GAVE me clonazepam.

I reckon that's fair warning. It's 20 years later and I still need clonazrpam not so suffer myoclonus. You cannot fake it - it's sudden jerks in arms and legs. I need and use crutches so the doctor knew they HAD to do something. I swapped to clobazam because it's less dependence forming and has a host of other significant increased safety factors.

But I'm stuck on 40mg/day for life. Free in the UK (epilepsy treatment is always free) but US users.... it will not go welll.

yea my mom was an epileptic and she got hit by a bus when she was 14 and ever since then had seizures and if she didn't take her meds she would have agrand mal seizure. crazy how you can tell someone who is about to have a seizure as they will seem confused and not really know what's going on and there's a glassiness to the patents eyes. im sorry for anyone who has to live with that. I got seizures when I detoxed myself off some RC Benz, I thought was real Xanax and was eating like 5 at a time going buck wild not knowing what physical withdrawals were or what the neurons in my brain were doing....I just. knew that I was escaping the world I was living in

 

[Fertile]

yea my mom was an epileptic and she got hit by a bus when she was 14 and ever since then had seizures and if she didn't take her meds she would have agrand mal seizure. crazy how you can tell someone who is about to have a seizure as they will seem confused and not really know what's going on and there's a glassiness to the patents eyes. im sorry for anyone who has to live with that. I got seizures when I detoxed myself off some RC Benz, I thought was real Xanax and was eating like 5 at a time going buck wild not knowing what physical withdrawals were or what the neurons in my brain were doing....I just. knew that I was escaping the world I was living in

I'm sorry to hear that. MANY medicines ro treat epilepsy are not too good for the body. Valoprate is mutagenic, phenytoin reduces avreage lieespan by 6 years due to multiple toxicity. All the others have (obviously) large sampling rates and it is not good.

IF she can get it and IF it works for her - Clobazam has JUST been introduced into US medicine.

I truly think that clobazam should be a [P} i.e. any adult should be able to buy it - it really is that safe.

I mean, I'm sure people will figure out more potent analogues... but the chemistry is next level so the pharmacy will be the cheapest source.

Take care.