Open Discussion drug testing board and other concerns

[Daedalus237]

hello everyone

first off i would like to say that i do not want to insult anyone, i like this place and would like to continue to stay here, however i want to bring up several concerns that stand out to me. this is a result of one of my threads being closed by tricomb (who kindly referred me to this board and was courteous, so again no offense meant). i was initially attracted to this site because it contained intelligent discussion about the responsible use of drugs, harm prevention, etc. This can only help people in realizing that drugs are not "evil" when used responsibly, and this phony baloney "War on drugs" is stupid nonsense and a waste of taxpayer money.

first is the convoluted maze of rules, boards, stickies, more rules, more stickies and other such nonsense that needs to be navigated by newbies to become an effective poster. it's quite daunting really. i've read corporate finance textbooks that were more inviting.

secondly, the fact that many rules are often enforced on a completely random or favoritist basis.

first there is this rule
1) NO DRUG TESTING QUESTIONS
We do not allow threads asking how to beat a drug test, how drug tests work, what they can detect, etc. We do not allow threads asking how long a given drug stays in your system, because that information can easily be found here and elsewhere with a simple google search. If you see a drug testing question posted, please use the report feature and do not answer it.

yet i have found numerous threads talking about the half-lives of drugs, duration of metabolites that remain in your system, often with moderators not only participating in these discussions but often straight up answering them. how is this not in violation of the rule? anyone with half a brain can make the connection that once metabolites are cleared > drug will not show up in your system on a drug test.

next there is this rule
6) NO QUESTIONS ASKING IF A MEDICATION OR DRUG IS RECREATIONAL!
These questions can easily be answered with wikipedia, google or erowid. If you've exhausted these sources and STILL can't find an answer, please inquire in Basic Drug Discussion.

there are NUMEROUS threads that straight up ask this question and do not get blocked. here is one http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/411313-Are-barbiturates-recreational/page3 that blatantly asks if they are recreational, it has now been blocked but it received three pages worth of answers prior to this happening, and those answers were not censored or blocked in any way. also this one http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/622511-Abusing-prescribed-medication blatantly asking how to abuse prescription medications receives hearty advice.

3) NO DISCUSSIONS OF SYNTHESIS
Legal or illegal or any steps involved. There are other message boards who are willing to risk the liabilities of such synthesis discussion, but we aren't one of them. However instructional guides based on purification and extraction processes are permitted though will be monitored closely.

ok, i understand that synthesis and purification/extraction are different things, but the legal consequences of either action are exactly the same. I seriously doubt the DEA will seriously care whether I'm synthesizing crystal meth in my basement or extracting and purifying DXM/DMT/Codeine or growing shrooms/weed. It's really all the same realm.


it seems contradictory that all of these rules are put in place so that the site can remain under the guise of "harm reduction and/or information/entertainment/educational purposes" while members and moderators on the site blatantly discuss half lives, metabolites, illegal hard drugs and rc's that have no clinical application, blatantly discuss best ROA methods "to get fucked up", recreational doses and usage, extraction and purification guides, etc. The DEA is not stupid. They know that all these rules and disclaimers will hold up in court about as well as the "SWIM" bullshit seen on some other sites when people are blatantly discussing crushing up and IV'ing midazolam.

furthermore, i know plently of bodybuilding forums (and im sure some of you know them as well), i will name them but they are open public forums that blatantly discuss not only the use of steroids and ped's but also protocols and even blatantly talk about sources for where to get these drugs. these forums have been around for decades and the gubmint has yet to shut them down. recreational drug forums such as grasscity and shroomery discuss topics such as these openly as well and are still around. in all reality free speech will protect us to a point, and so far the forces that be have looked the other way but make no mistake, the can and WILL shut us down if the whim ever occurs to them. so why bother with all of these "safety measures" that only convolute things for new users, and will be of no use should someone in power decide to crack down.

i also notice the drug testing board was shut down, was that board REALLY that much of a liability when people are openly talking about taking 150mg xanax per day, snorting coke, plugging phenazepam, etc? I know plenty of people on here lead otherwise workaday lives with mundane jobs and could use some advice on how to "enhance" their day a bit while avoiding drug tests. the fact is drug tests are expensive and it's not like these employers are going to sit here reading the subversion tactics and say "ALRIGHT WE NEED TO DO A 40-PANEL EXTENSIVE DRUG TEST INVOLVING BLOOD WORK, URINE AND HAIR FOLLICLES FOR THIS EMPLOYEE EVEN THOUGH IT WILL COST US A SHIT TON OF MONEY AND HE'LL PROBABLY QUIT IN A FEW MONTHS ANYWAYS".

again, i want to specify that I am not looking to get banned nor is my aim to insult or criticize anyone in a negative fashion, just to discuss this topic in a realistic, intelligent manner beyond "rules are rules follow them or leave". i am pretty sure the DEA is watching all of the traffic from all drug sites already and they know what's going on, hell some of them probably even use drugs themselves, so IMHO all the cat and mouse games are unnecessary.

on a side note if anyone can direct me to a more open drug forum where i can find information regarding drug testing and untested drugs/rc's that would be nice. PM me if you feel unsafe mentioning it in the open.

 

[alasdairm]

hi

your feedback is welcome.

first is the convoluted maze of rules, boards, stickies, more rules, more stickies and other such nonsense that needs to be navigated by newbies to become an effective poster. it's quite daunting really. i've read corporate finance textbooks that were more inviting.

you feel it's nonsense but this is how the community has evolved and the community, as a whole, understands it. bluelight's been around for over 10 years and, while it's far from perfect, it's evolved a set of community standards - both written and unwritten - and it's always possible that users who are new to the community will find that they don't understand or disagree with a particular rule. it's likely the rule has evolved too - created to address a specific 'problem' and tuned along the way to continue to be relevant as the community sees it.

new rules come along, old rules are relaxed and, occasionally, dropped altogether. they're not right or wrong - they're a view of how we feel the site should be run. perhaps you'd do it differently? perhaps you feel that your way of doing something on bluelight makes more sense that the way we currently do it. that's what this forum is for (in part) and that's why bluelight forums are moderated by volunteers who've been contributing to the forums they now moderate for months and years.

so keep pointing out where you think we can improve but don't label it as nonsense just because you'd do it differently.

secondly, the fact that many rules are often enforced on a completely random or favoritist basis.

if you see a post where you think something should have been handled differently (or at all), then the mechanism for bringing this to the attention of the forum staff is the report feature. just click the report button:

and the forum staff will take a look.

you haven't reported any posts so. far. i encourage you use the feature.

regards

alasdair

 

[fizzle]

I really cant tell if you're upset that the site rules are "too strict" or if you're upset that they arent being followed closely enough. At some points you're saying that mods are participating in rule-breaking discussion (not actually the case in your particular example, but more on that later) and at other points you're saying we should get rid of the rules that prevent source discussion?

The "no drug-testing questions" rule is there because the staff feels that pretty much all the drug testing questions have been covered, thats why the forum is still left there for people to see, even if you cant contribute to it anymore. But thats not BLs purpose to begin with, as it mentions. The example you provide after that, of mods participating in discussion of drugs half lives, etc, is not drug testing. The length of time or half life of a drug is not directly related to drug testing. Yes, you can figure out when you'd be able to pass a drug test through knowing that info, but that isnt helping you CHEAT on a drug test. That info can be vital if someone plans to use another kind of drug that might have a bad reaction when mixed, so there is good reason for discussing such things. I dont see at all how it breaks the drug testing rule.

Next, in regards to the recreational rule you point out a thread that has been closed with the mod even saying that it doesnt fit the new guidelines. Most threads will be left so that people understand what sort of things break the rules, but closed to further contributions. However, you must remember that this is a world-wide site, so not all mods are going to be around 24 hours a day. They try as best they can to have a good amount of coverage and from various places in the world so that things will be covered most of the time, but the staff on this site are volunteers and do have real lives to attend to. In the next example you give there it looks like you have simply read the title and nothing more. The person isnt trying to abuse prescription meds, they feel their use of their prescription meds is becoming a problem and are trying to figure out what to do about it! That is the kind of thing BL is here for! What problem do you have with that?

Final point, because my post is becoming as long as yours so I'd like to end it soon, you make mention of the DEA. Again, this is a world-wide site, so even if the DEA were monitoring this site, which is actually very likely, they probably have little to no interest in the small time drug users that make up most of this site, and even if they did, theres an even smaller number of users who they'd actually be able to do anything about, since our user base ranges from the US to Great Britain to Australia and everywhere in between.

Ok, I think I've about covered everything....

 

[Tommyboy]

there are NUMEROUS threads that straight up ask this question and do not get blocked. here is one http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/4...eational/page3 that blatantly asks if they are recreational, it has now been blocked but it received three pages worth of answers prior to this happening, and those answers were not censored or blocked in any way.

That thread was old. The rules evolve over time, and that thread was closed around the time that rule was first being enforced.

it seems contradictory that all of these rules are put in place so that the site can remain under the guise of "harm reduction and/or information/entertainment/educational purposes" while members and moderators on the site blatantly discuss half lives, metabolites, illegal hard drugs and rc's that have no clinical application, blatantly discuss best ROA methods "to get fucked up", recreational doses and usage, extraction and purification guides, etc. The DEA is not stupid. They know that all these rules and disclaimers will hold up in court about as well as the "SWIM" bullshit seen on some other sites when people are blatantly discussing crushing up and IV'ing midazolam.

We are not a harm reduction forum just to keep the DEA happy. We aren't even hosted in the USA, so that's not our main concern. We are a harm reduction forum because we feel that HR information should be available to people using drugs. Things like half-life, metabolites, and bioavailability are all important from a harm reduction standpoint. For example, knowing that methadone has a very long half-life is important information for people that may be thinking about taking another CNS depressant after their methadone dose, and knowing the half-life will let them know when it will be safer to dose said CNS depressant. All of this has nothing to do with the DEA, and everything to do with people using safely.

furthermore, i know plently of bodybuilding forums (and im sure some of you know them as well), i will name them but they are open public forums that blatantly discuss not only the use of steroids and ped's but also protocols and even blatantly talk about sources for where to get these drugs. these forums have been around for decades and the gubmint has yet to shut them down. recreational drug forums such as grasscity and shroomery discuss topics such as these openly as well and are still around. in all reality free speech will protect us to a point, and so far the forces that be have looked the other way but make no mistake, the can and WILL shut us down if the whim ever occurs to them. so why bother with all of these "safety measures" that only convolute things for new users, and will be of no use should someone in power decide to crack down

Having rules such as no sourcing in place are to keep the forum running smoothly. It would be filled with vendors trying to sell their products if we allowed it, and product review would be biased if these vendors were posing as regular members to try to make their product sound better. Even with the no sourcing rule I have recieved some PMs about someone ripping someone else off. There would be so many more of those if we allowed sourcing.

I was going to address the drug testing but it looks like it has already been addressed by fizzle to my satisfaction, so I will defer you to her post for that area of response.

Lastly, thank you for your feedback.

 

[Tripman]

I would like to emphasise the fact that Bluelight is NOT an American based website as Tommyboy stated.

 

[Daedalus237]

I think you guys are misunderstanding. I apologize for saying the rules are "nonsense", I did not mean that they themselves are nonsense, just that the entire process could be streamlined somehow. There are over 20 different boards and each has their own set of rules. I sincerely doubt every new member takes the time to read or even skim *ALL* of the required test, much less commits it to memory. I was simply bringing up examples of how certain comments, while seemingly focused on HR can be used for other purposes like cheating on drug tests. Also, was not contradicting myself when I say the rules are too strict and too loose at the same time. I simply meant that I do not understand why we have to walk this fine line of HR while at the same time allowing discussions focused entirely around getting as high as possible off a certain drug. For the sake of open discussion, I do not think that this "pick and choose" approach is conducive to the informed discussion of a topic as controversial, potentially dangerous and life-changing as drugs. Why are some topics openly discussed while others are taboo? There are others who share the same viewpoint, for an example this thread. http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/623026-Whys-bluelight-so-damn-up-tight

And it's not just newbies like myself, but in some cases long-time members with high post counts.

It seems to me that for a topic as complex and dynamic as the one BL deals with, enforcement of the aforementioned rules will be chaotic at best. Anyone can misinterpret or differently interpret a certain comment. You can say that the metabolites of Diazepam last roughly 600 hours in the human body, for one person this could mean "Oh well I shouldn't take other benzodiazepines in this time period to avoid dependency issues" while to someone else this could mean "that's how long I have to wait before I can take a drug test".

I am well aware of the "report" feature. I am not a snitch and believe in free speech for everyone. Besides, it would turn into a full-time job. Half if not more of the posts can be construed as a violation of these in some way.

For example, there was that thread about IV'ing midazolam in order to get as high from it as possible. Everyone knows that IV'ing is a potentially dangerous activity, would proper HR protocol dictate simply taking it orally? Yet you have a moderator offering detailed instructions on how to IV it.

And for the record, would keeping my job not be considered a type of "harm reduction"? Because running out of money would cause me to end up on the street and certainly harm would befall me at that point. You can counter with "well don't take drugs then." And while this is completely true, the BEST form of harm reduction in any of the cases discussed on BL would be to simply abstain from drugs. If the goal is harm reduction in its purest and most basic form, then BL would be nothing more than single page with the words "Don't take drugs" in size 20 font. Clearly this is not the case, since we all have our own drug habits and preferences, to some of us it is a hobby and to others a lifestyle, we enjoy discussing these and learning more from others, and we like to be able to discuss ways to continue while building a successful, functional life around them. That, to me, is the true essence of HR.

I simply do not buy the "every topic necessary has already been covered" explanation. How can anyone definitively make such a statement? It genuinely blows my mind. Not only regarding drug testing but any subject that could possibly be discussed on the face of the earth, I simply do not believe that *everything* could have been covered. That HAS to violate some sort of basic logical tenet. New books are constantly being written about subjects like WWII, the Bible, other things that have passed and are essentially set in stone, yet people still find new things to discuss regarding those issues. Not once in history has someone said "alright from here on we're banning all discussion regarding X because we feel the topic has been covered completely". Nor have I ever seen a reason so....bizarre in all my history (which is extensive) of participating in online forums based around a wide range of various topics.

To make such a statement regarding the dynamic and changing world of drugs, RC's, and employment....idunno. I feel there is some other driving factor behind this decision that was not discussed. There's plenty of redundant posts in the other sub-forums which are not removed or locked down. The "bump" system is quite effective in resolving useless threads and throwing them to the bottom of the trash bin. Also there are other boards which don't even have anything to do with drugs but continue to exist. I am not saying they should be shut down, I just think it's strange that the drug testing and circumvention board received such unfair treatment. Would it really hurt to unlock it?


Next, regarding the potential for government intervention.You guys mentioned that you don't care about government intervention or the DEA and whatnot, if this is TRULY the case, then why does it matter if people want to discuss cheating on drug tests?

It just seems nonsensical that you guys are so nonchalant about possible government interference (like the shutdown of The Hive forums), yet arbitrarily enforce certain rules that wouldn't really hurt anyone if they were removed or perhaps loosened.

For the record I do not agree that BL is safe because it is hosted in a different country. This does not mean that the DEA cannot go after them if they desire. The DEA can work with the CIA, FBI, NSA and ICE as needed given the right funding and the right political climate. They can also coerce other governments into working with them. The Russian government has already shut down tormail hosting in their country due to pressure from the US. Do not think that hosting in a different country makes you safe. It is does not. Besides just because the DEA doesn't care, it doesn't mean the FSB doesn't. If you guys were to simply say "we feel that speaking about ways to cheat on drug tests will compromise the safety of the site", I would be more inclined to believe you. However as it stands, if we are to go with the prevailing logic that various government agencies could not care less, then why are certain topics not allowed? It just seems very arbitrary.


As for the sourcing comment, I wasn't advocating that we should allow sourcing and selling on the forum, I was simply saying that many other communities allow sourcing and it has not caused any legal repercussions for them. And those communities are international as well and many are not hosted in the US. They even import products from other countries. I agree that sourcing would be chaotic and cause a whole mess of problems that would be better off left alone. That was just a "drastic" example I used to make a point.

I understand that BL has been around for a long time and hope that it will continue to exist for even longer. This site is a wealth of knowledge for anyone who shares our interests and it would be a shame if it was gone. I was just simply pointing out what I believe are flaws in the system that could be addressed to make this place even better. I will continue to follow the rules to the best of my ability, however I have never been one to stifle my opinions and sincerely hope that my words will make some impact on the improvement of the site. You guys are free to disagree since I'm but a guest here, but I felt that it needed to be said.

 

[Tommyboy]

You can say that the metabolites of Diazepam last roughly 600 hours in the human body, for one person this could mean "Oh well I shouldn't take other benzodiazepines in this time period to avoid dependency issues" while to someone else this could mean "that's how long I have to wait before I can take a drug test".

Not if the person is asking something like "Can I take diazepam every other day to avoid withdrawal since I don't have many pills left until refill?" If a person is able to figure out an answer to a drug testing question from that then more power to them I guess. We are not going to deprive someone of HR info because someone else might use the information differently.

If we allowed drug testing questions here is how it would go. A person would ask the question, then most people would just google it and post the answers that they found in their reply to the post. The answers would vary, and the OP would get the same answers as they would have gotten by just searching on their own. Even if people posted with personal experience, it would still vary, and wouldn't be any more helpful than just googling on your own. Then of course there would be some people that took the advice in a thread and failed their drug test still, and they may come back complaining in the thread which could create another issue.

Next, regarding the potential for government intervention.You guys mentioned that you don't care about government intervention or the DEA and whatnot, if this is TRULY the case, then why does it matter if people want to discuss cheating on drug tests?

I was merely saying that we are a harm reduction forum by choice, not by force. Keeping certain things off of Bluelight likely helps protect us in some way or another though, so it is another reason why we stick to harm reduction information, but not the primary reason.

For example, there was that thread about IV'ing midazolam in order to get as high from it as possible. Everyone knows that IV'ing is a potentially dangerous activity, would proper HR protocol dictate simply taking it orally? Yet you have a moderator offering detailed instructions on how to IV it.

We do not encourage IV use, and we enforce this rule very strictly. However, if someone is going to IV something no matter what we say, then we allow discussion on the safest way to do so. Do you suggest we tell them "no, take it orally, and if you want to IV it then you are on your own?" One of the biggest areas of harm reduction is needle exchange programs and the like which give users access to new, sterile IV equipment.

Everyone has their own idea on how this site should be run. We take suggestions into consideration, but as alasdairm said, the rules have been formed over many years, and have been loosened and tightened in certain areas during this time. If you really don't like how the site is run compared to other sites, then nobody is forcing you to stay here. I don't mean that in bad way, I'm just pointing out that this site is not for everybody, and certain people will stay and others will go.

 

[tricomb]

A few things I'd like to address.

1) Particularly in the focus HR forums, like Other Drugs, Basic/Advanced drug discussion, etc. You don't need to "stifle" your opinions, but you must follow the posting guidelines of that particular forum. Your opinion should rightly be "stifled" if your opinion would promote harm, terms you accepted in the BLUA. Yes you are right, that many new users don't bother to read the rules, but they agreed in the binding contract we are all bound by, the Bluelight User Agreement, and each forum is set up to run efficiently with it's own set of rules.

2) Our rules are not random, nor are they set in stone. This website has been around for many years as you know, and the rules have changed over time, and are periodically adjusted as seen fit to further promote the mission of bluelight and harm reduction.

3) Regarding the half lives, while this information is also used to cheat a drug test (which we feel, is not our place to help you with, and in addition it all those questions have been asked, answered, and archived) it is very relevant information, especially when we are trying to help polydrug abusers. The examples given previously on methadone were perfect.

4) You say that bluelight is not "safe", yet I don't think we ever claimed to be. This is the internet. We do the very best we can to keep our site secure, and keep our members protected against the many dangerous things on the internet. Ultimately, you are responsible for the content that you post, whether it is incriminating or not, everything that you post on the internet, is forever. If you delete a post, it's not really deleted, same thing for editing, everything is logged and saved, this is not just how bluelight works, but all forums, especially those using vBulletin.

If you fear your liberty is at stake (a valid concern), then you should post in a manner which reflects this. At the end of the day, people come here for questions about using drugs, and while we don't want to encourage illicit drug use, but we answer their questions in the safest, most HR format possible, this is why we maintain posting guidelines, to ensure quality responses. Saying "You should not be doing drugs" is not effective harm reduction, as it will lead to the OP resorting to trial and error, we are here to minimize that error. The rules are in place to attempt to protect you from harm.

5) Yes other forums allow sourcing, but we aren't other forums, and there are many valid reasons why we don't want to deal with that, and Tommyboy gave several reasons why. If we allowed sourcing, it would be pandemonium for the staff to regulate, and ultimately is a distraction from the mission of bluelight. Our mission is not to promote discussion that would make drugs readily available online, this is contrary to the core concept of HR. If a person is deadset on sourcing, they can find it on another forum. Same thing for synthesis discussion. I see how you have a hard time understanding why we allow discussing purification/extractions, but let me try and explain it for you.
John Doe is going to inject his pain medication. He thinks he knows how to do it, basically crush the pill, "just add water" etc. When he comes into my forum, Other Drugs, we are going to make sure he knows about IV Complications, micron filtering the inactive ingredients, other viable routes of administration, and hopefully John Doe will learn something that will reduce the harm of his drug use. Hopefully, we can save John Does veins, and warn him of the long-term health consequences of shooting improperly, or inadequately (cotton filter, cigarette filter, etc.) filtered solutions, like how talc builds up in the fine veins of your lungs, or how snorting Opana carries the risk of silicosis due to the inactive ingredients.

Saying "Dont do drugs" is as effective as our current war on drugs, and is contrary to proper harm reduction.

 

[fizzle]

There are over 20 different boards and each has their own set of rules. I sincerely doubt every new member takes the time to read or even skim *ALL* of the required test, much less commits it to memory.

Most of your points have been well responded to by others but I just wanted to throw in that we by no means expect anyone to go through and read every single set of rules of every forum, much less commit them to memory. We know there are a lot of forums and each having their own set of rules has come up in staff discussions before, but each forum is so unique that it was decided best to keep each forums rules specific to the forum. It just would not work well to try and find some universal set of rules to span across all our very different forums. We expect you to know the rules of the forums you're posting in. That means before you post in a forum you havent been in before, take a minute to read over the rules, if its a forum you have posted in but maybe not in a while, just take a second to glance over them and look for any modifications to them. Quite simple, really, we honestly dont expect you to memorize all of them. Even most of the mods dont know all the rules to all the other forums, in fact mods consult with one another all the time for things like where to move a thread because they realize that another mod might have a better idea of another forums rules.

I am well aware of the "report" feature. I am not a snitch and believe in free speech for everyone. Besides, it would turn into a full-time job. Half if not more of the posts can be construed as a violation of these in some way.

Its not at all considered "snitching" if you report a rule breaking post. Thats why we have the report feature. We highly encourage you to report anything you see that breaks the rules, especially if its a member of staff. Even staff makes mistakes.

I simply do not buy the "every topic necessary has already been covered" explanation. How can anyone definitively make such a statement? It genuinely blows my mind. Not only regarding drug testing but any subject that could possibly be discussed on the face of the earth, I simply do not believe that *everything* could have been covered.

Obviously there will always be new minor changes and things but from what we started seeing, all the questions were essentially the same question worded in a different way. If you can think of a new drug testing question that hasnt been covered in any way and doesnt involve cheating a drug test, PM a mod and the staff will determine if its worth adding it to that forum or worth opening that forum again. So far that hasnt happened, and certainly hasnt happened enough times to make it worthwhile to reopen the entire forum.

Also there are other boards which don't even have anything to do with drugs but continue to exist. I am not saying they should be shut down, I just think it's strange that the drug testing and circumvention board received such unfair treatment. Would it really hurt to unlock it?

I'm not really sure what the social boards (or as you say, the boards that dont have anything to do with drugs) have anything to do with this discussion. This site is a community and we want to build that community. Regulars here have made many deep and lasting relationships, and the social boards gives people the opportunity to do that. The drug testing forum was not a social forum.

For the record I do not agree that BL is safe because it is hosted in a different country. This does not mean that the DEA cannot go after them if they desire.

As mentioned earlier, we never claimed BL was 'safe'. Thats why mods tell people constantly, "do not incriminate yourself" mods also try and remove any identifying information any time they catch it.

I understand that BL has been around for a long time and hope that it will continue to exist for even longer. This site is a wealth of knowledge for anyone who shares our interests and it would be a shame if it was gone. I was just simply pointing out what I believe are flaws in the system that could be addressed to make this place even better. I will continue to follow the rules to the best of my ability, however I have never been one to stifle my opinions and sincerely hope that my words will make some impact on the improvement of the site. You guys are free to disagree since I'm but a guest here, but I felt that it needed to be said.

This discussion is certainly good to have, it gives all of staff the opportunity to re-think rules that normally wouldnt even cross the minds of people who have been around a while. You make some good points, including having rules that seem contradicting by allowing threads about things like talking about how high people are, but it is difficult to find a middle ground of allowing people to openly discuss drugs and use (things they normally wouldnt have any other place to openly discuss) while also not glorifying drug use. Sure, there may still be some room for improvement in that area, but this is just how things have evolved over time. It goes back to community building. We try to be open minded but we do remind people to not incriminate themselves and remind them that they are taking a risk by posting such things. Its up to them what to post from there. Do you think we shouldnt allow such discussion? It might make more sense as far as the rules being more consistent, but for the most part, it hasnt caused us any problems up to this point, and if a post does start becoming too risky sounding, thats when you get a mod to step in. It is definitely a balancing act. I'd love to hear any ideas you might have for that area.

 

[Daedalus237]

If we allowed drug testing questions here is how it would go. A person would ask the question, then most people would just google it and post the answers that they found in their reply to the post. The answers would vary, and the OP would get the same answers as they would have gotten by just searching on their own. Even if people posted with personal experience, it would still vary, and wouldn't be any more helpful than just googling on your own. Then of course there would be some people that took the advice in a thread and failed their drug test still, and they may come back complaining in the thread which could create another issue.
I was merely saying that we are a harm reduction forum by choice, not by force. Keeping certain things off of Bluelight likely helps protect us in some way or another though, so it is another reason why we stick to harm reduction information, but not the primary reason.

Ah see now we are getting somewhere. :D I understand your reasoning, but it is quite possible that the same mental approach can be done with other boards, for example someone might ask about IV use and another poster might respond with "oh well I heard IV'ing xanax is fine I know a friend of a friend of my cousin that does it all the time." That person could try it and end up in ER and then the parents would blame the site and draw unwanted attention. Perhaps maybe we should include a rule that all data not based on scientific evidence (which should be provided should someone go that route) or on firsthand experience should include the disclaimer that their comment should be taken with a grain of salt, though personally I find most reasonable people do this anyways. I personally have never offered any advice that I have not tried out on myself without prefacing it with "well this is what I heard but try it at your own risk" or something along those lines. I mean, in the world of recreational drugs, the proverbial "shit happens" is appropriate, people on here should know to try these things at their own risk. And not just drug testing related either, the Bromo-dragonFLY related deaths would be an example of this. I guess if you feel cutting off drug-testing discussion would protect the site to some degree, then I will have to seek that information elsewhere, but the fact that it remains visible could still draw attention. It just seems odd to leave it up potentially exposing the site to risk but at the same time prevent further contributions, it's almost like a purgatory state. You're not really protecting the site OR the people. But again, they're your rules.

We do not encourage IV use, and we enforce this rule very strictly. However, if someone is going to IV something no matter what we say, then we allow discussion on the safest way to do so. Do you suggest we tell them "no, take it orally, and if you want to IV it then you are on your own?" One of the biggest areas of harm reduction is needle exchange programs and the like which give users access to new, sterile IV equipment.

That's not what I am suggesting, and to be honest I saw that response coming. And I completely agree with you, which is why I suggest some rules get loosened a bit, notable the ones about the drug testing board. I mean let's face it, people will try to cheat on drug tests even though it's a bad idea, try to abuse certain drugs like benzodiazepines and barbiturates which shouldn't really be abused, use unsafe ROA methods just to chase that high, etc. I will admit that I have not scoured EVERY entry in that board so perhaps the answer is in there (though the search function didn't yield it).

I just think it would be easier if the board remained open and maybe we had a moderator or two on there who specialized on the matter and would address newbie questions based on the wealth of knowledge there, rather than saying "alright here's a giant pile of anecdotal info, go dig through it". And I'm sure some people would be more than willing to research the nature of drug testing at various places of employment and post their findings. Or at least contribute their own reports (well I applied to walmart but tested positive for drugs and failed even though I was only using 4-mec), which would build our knowledge base. Or perhaps a sticky that links to other site that do discuss that topic (although this might offend those other forums so careful treading will be necessary). This is all keeping in the vein of HR and open discussion, I'm just voicing my opinion but if you guys REALLY think it's fine the way it is, then so be it.

A few things I'd like to address.

1) Particularly in the focus HR forums, like Other Drugs, Basic/Advanced drug discussion, etc. You don't need to "stifle" your opinions, but you must follow the posting guidelines of that particular forum. Your opinion should rightly be "stifled" if your opinion would promote harm, terms you accepted in the BLUA. Yes you are right, that many new users don't bother to read the rules, but they agreed in the binding contract we are all bound by, the Bluelight User Agreement, and each forum is set up to run efficiently with it's own set of rules.

2) Our rules are not random, nor are they set in stone. This website has been around for many years as you know, and the rules have changed over time, and are periodically adjusted as seen fit to further promote the mission of bluelight and harm reduction.

You'll have to forgive me, I sometimes use words like "random" and "nonsense" not in a derogatory manner, just to imply that they are perhaps a bit more onerous than they could be. And I never promoted harmful or reckless use. These issues tend to get resolved anyways, there was that one thread where a user stated that he used 40mg diazapam/day for a prolonged period and he went off cold turkey fine. Rather that shutting down the thread other users stepped in and said this is highly ill-advised without any need to censorship or thread-locking.

4) You say that bluelight is not "safe", yet I don't think we ever claimed to be. This is the internet. We do the very best we can to keep our site secure, and keep our members protected against the many dangerous things on the internet. Ultimately, you are responsible for the content that you post, whether it is incriminating or not, everything that you post on the internet, is forever. If you delete a post, it's not really deleted, same thing for editing, everything is logged and saved, this is not just how bluelight works, but all forums, especially those using vBulletin.

If you fear your liberty is at stake (a valid concern), then you should post in a manner which reflects this. At the end of the day, people come here for questions about using drugs, and while we don't want to encourage illicit drug use, but we answer their questions in the safest, most HR format possible, this is why we maintain posting guidelines, to ensure quality responses. Saying "You should not be doing drugs" is not effective harm reduction, as it will lead to the OP resorting to trial and error, we are here to minimize that error. The rules are in place to attempt to protect you from harm.

5) Yes other forums allow sourcing, but we aren't other forums, and there are many valid reasons why we don't want to deal with that, and Tommyboy gave several reasons why. If we allowed sourcing, it would be pandemonium for the staff to regulate, and ultimately is a distraction from the mission of bluelight. Our mission is not to promote discussion that would make drugs readily available online, this is contrary to the core concept of HR. If a person is deadset on sourcing, they can find it on another forum. Same thing for synthesis discussion. I see how you have a hard time understanding why we allow discussing purification/extractions, but let me try and explain it for you.
John Doe is going to inject his pain medication. He thinks he knows how to do it, basically crush the pill, "just add water" etc. When he comes into my forum, Other Drugs, we are going to make sure he knows about IV Complications, micron filtering the inactive ingredients, other viable routes of administration, and hopefully John Doe will learn something that will reduce the harm of his drug use. Hopefully, we can save John Does veins, and warn him of the long-term health consequences of shooting improperly, or inadequately (cotton filter, cigarette filter, etc.) filtered solutions, like how talc builds up in the fine veins of your lungs, or how snorting Opana carries the risk of silicosis due to the inactive ingredients.

Saying "Dont do drugs" is as effective as our current war on drugs, and is contrary to proper harm reduction.

I think you misread me again. I didn't advocate sourcing, I was merely using it as an example to show that we don't necessarily need to be so uptight about other things since it didn't cause other sites to get shut down. Again, I don't think it should be allowed; I have participated on many steroid forums where it was allowed and people often got scammed, I'm just saying that synthesis talk is "less bad" than blatant sourcing so we shouldn't shy away from it. Erowid has synthesis guides and that site hasn't been shut down. I guess I could just go to Erowid if I needed to know so perhaps my point is moot. But for the sake of argument let me present a situation.

What if john doe wants to extract DXM from his generic CVS cough syrup in order to avoid messing up his liver from the acetaminophen and other stuff in there? Do we provide him with information to do so for the sake of HR? Of course we do, it would be cruel not to.

Now say John Doe wants to try something a bit harder. Say John Doe stocks up on a bunch of Primatene and fat burners and wants to extract the ephedrine/pseudoephedrine/ephedra and make himself some crystal meth. That is over the line? We just lock the thread and let him experiment for himself with dangerous battery acid, or risk his life trying to buy some poorly made meth from some ghetto dealer that lives in a shack? See where I'm getting at? The lines are pretty blurred. But I guess you might have a point in that blatantly posting instructions might attract fed attention. I guess it all depends on where THEY draw the line.

Most of your points have been well responded to by others but I just wanted to throw in that we by no means expect anyone to go through and read every single set of rules of every forum, much less commit them to memory. We know there are a lot of forums and each having their own set of rules has come up in staff discussions before, but each forum is so unique that it was decided best to keep each forums rules specific to the forum. It just would not work well to try and find some universal set of rules to span across all our very different forums. We expect you to know the rules of the forums you're posting in. That means before you post in a forum you havent been in before, take a minute to read over the rules, if its a forum you have posted in but maybe not in a while, just take a second to glance over them and look for any modifications to them. Quite simple, really, we honestly dont expect you to memorize all of them. Even most of the mods dont know all the rules to all the other forums, in fact mods consult with one another all the time for things like where to move a thread because they realize that another mod might have a better idea of another forums rules.

Its not at all considered "snitching" if you report a rule breaking post. Thats why we have the report feature. We highly encourage you to report anything you see that breaks the rules, especially if its a member of staff. Even staff makes mistakes.

It's just that I worry something that might be interpreted as breaking a rule might be useful to something else. Even in that case where the guy was advising going cold turkey off a high benzo tolerance was resolved on it's own. Perhaps someone did report him. Idunno, it seems most that with drug talk it's hard to really cross the line to the point that it requires being reported. You can pretty much learn something from anyone. But I will try to use it in an intelligent manner.

Obviously there will always be new minor changes and things but from what we started seeing, all the questions were essentially the same question worded in a different way. If you can think of a new drug testing question that hasnt been covered in any way and doesnt involve cheating a drug test, PM a mod and the staff will determine if its worth adding it to that forum or worth opening that forum again. So far that hasnt happened, and certainly hasnt happened enough times to make it worthwhile to reopen the entire forum.

I'm not really sure what the social boards (or as you say, the boards that dont have anything to do with drugs) have anything to do with this discussion. This site is a community and we want to build that community. Regulars here have made many deep and lasting relationships, and the social boards gives people the opportunity to do that. The drug testing forum was not a social forum.

By that I just meant that it seems weird to have something not at all HR related open for discussion but something potentially HR related is closed. Again I think having the drug testing forum open and be properly moderated would be overall more beneficial than having it closed. Not so much because something hasn't been covered but just for the sake of being thorough.

As mentioned earlier, we never claimed BL was 'safe'. Thats why mods tell people constantly, "do not incriminate yourself" mods also try and remove any identifying information any time they catch it.


This discussion is certainly good to have, it gives all of staff the opportunity to re-think rules that normally wouldnt even cross the minds of people who have been around a while. You make some good points, including having rules that seem contradicting by allowing threads about things like talking about how high people are, but it is difficult to find a middle ground of allowing people to openly discuss drugs and use (things they normally wouldnt have any other place to openly discuss) while also not glorifying drug use. Sure, there may still be some room for improvement in that area, but this is just how things have evolved over time. It goes back to community building. We try to be open minded but we do remind people to not incriminate themselves and remind them that they are taking a risk by posting such things. Its up to them what to post from there. Do you think we shouldnt allow such discussion? It might make more sense as far as the rules being more consistent, but for the most part, it hasnt caused us any problems up to this point, and if a post does start becoming too risky sounding, thats when you get a mod to step in. It is definitely a balancing act. I'd love to hear any ideas you might have for that area.

I agree it is a difficult middle ground to walk, and so far has been somewhat successful. It is hard to regulate what people say obviously, but it seems most of the people here are of a reasonably high moral caliber despite all of the various stigmas associated with illicit drugs. Perhaps maybe the creation of some sort of "no holds barred" board when the disclaimer will be that you are completely responsible for your posts, and that BL holds no responsibility for any repercussions that might occur as a result of said posts. But I am only offering opinions, whether or not something like that would ultimately benefit or hurt the site would require much speculation. Also another option I have seen on other forums is perhaps the implementation of a polling system which would allow for a somewhat more democratic process in the evolution of the site. Of course the staff would have the final say but it would be a good way to gauge the general feelings of the community (or is this being implemented already? I'm still new to many aspects of this site).

I have to say you guys have opened my eyes a bit more to the problems facing this community, and want to add that I respect the work that you guys do. Perhaps some more users will chime in and we can go from there.

 

[Tommyboy]

I understand your reasoning, but it is quite possible that the same mental approach can be done with other boards, for example someone might ask about IV use and another poster might respond with "oh well I heard IV'ing xanax is fine I know a friend of a friend of my cousin that does it all the time." That person could try it and end up in ER and then the parents would blame the site and draw unwanted attention. Perhaps maybe we should include a rule that all data not based on scientific evidence (which should be provided should someone go that route) or on firsthand experience should include the disclaimer that their comment should be taken with a grain of salt, though personally I find most reasonable people do this anyways. I personally have never offered any advice that I have not tried out on myself without prefacing it with "well this is what I heard but try it at your own risk" or something along those lines. I mean, in the world of recreational drugs, the proverbial "shit happens" is appropriate, people on here should know to try these things at their own risk. And not just drug testing related either, the Bromo-dragonFLY related deaths would be an example of this. I guess if you feel cutting off drug-testing discussion would protect the site to some degree, then I will have to seek that information elsewhere, but the fact that it remains visible could still draw attention. It just seems odd to leave it up potentially exposing the site to risk but at the same time prevent further contributions, it's almost like a purgatory state. You're not really protecting the site OR the people. But again, they're your rules.

There are two types of helpful posts. One is a post with helpful accurate HR advice. Now the other is a post with misinformation which turns into a "what not to do" thread, considering it gets corrected. Here is an example of a thread in the latter category. The OP starts with misinformation that is potentially dangerous, but all of the posts correcting them are helpful to people. That's why threads like that are sometimes kept open for a period of time, because people can learn from the posts that correct the OP. I know it borders on substance ID, but the responses are saying that you can't ID a substance on looks and would need a testing kit, which supports why we don't allow threads asking for us to ID a substance. We hope that everybody waits for multiple replies from multiple people before making a decision, and people usually reply quick enough for this to happen. Maybe we can add something to the guidelines of certain forums suggesting that people wait for at least a second opinion before taking the advice, but it is also hopefully common knowledge to do so.

By that I just meant that it seems weird to have something not at all HR related open for discussion but something potentially HR related is closed. Again I think having the drug testing forum open and be properly moderated would be overall more beneficial than having it closed. Not so much because something hasn't been covered but just for the sake of being thorough.

As for the drug testing rule, I personally would not use BL for the source of my drug testing inquiries even if it was allowed. I use google and always find an adequate answer through that, so I don't see the need for BL to host such threads. You have to consider the type of users that ask these questions. Many times they just signed up to ask that one drug testing question, so they could just as easily used that time to have searched elsewhere, and most likely find a just as good or better answer, way quicker too. If these questions were allowed people would sign up just to ask drug testing questions so it would be a mess, and would take too many of our resources to maintain it. Even if we had 2 mods assigned to the drug testing subforum and reopened it, the job would be tedious and our resources would be better used elsewhere. We have considered making a closed drug testing faq, but I don't recall where that discussion ended up, so it may still be a possiblility if someone thinks it is worth their time to make it. Since you seem to be so passionate about drug testing questions being allowed, then perhaps you would like to make such a thread.

Now although all of the rules apply to private messages as well, I am pretty lax when it comes to PMing about drug testing questions. This is because the reason for us not hosting these threads is more to reduce clutter, keep people from lashing out if they were to take the advice and still fail, and because it's really not HR, so it's not that big of a deal if this is addressed personally/privately behind the scenes. Things like sourcing and abuse are still very much against the rules whether posted publicly or privately, but the reasons for those rules is different than the reasons for the drug testing rules.
If I see a drug testing question that I really know the answer to and the thread gets closed or deleted, I sometimes PM the person with the answer. The same applies for if I receive a PM asking me those types of questions, and I don't report them or infract for them for it as long as they don't break any other rules, and I only answer it if I know the answer, and otherwise refer them to google. This might not be a popular reply coming from a mod, so hopefully I don't get fired for mentioning it.

 

[fizzle]

Perhaps maybe we should include a rule that all data not based on scientific evidence (which should be provided should someone go that route) or on firsthand experience should include the disclaimer that their comment should be taken with a grain of salt, though personally I find most reasonable people do this anyways. I personally have never offered any advice that I have not tried out on myself without prefacing it with "well this is what I heard but try it at your own risk" or something along those lines.

This is sort of an unwritten rule that most people seem to understand without us having to say it. The people on this board are not professionals and do not claim to be, so everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Also, things effect people differently, so just because something has worked for one person doesnt mean its going to work for everyone. Again, this is expected to be common sense.

It's just that I worry something that might be interpreted as breaking a rule might be useful to something else.

Its very difficult to know every situation that will come up so almost all rules are going to have some sort of loophole or some way that they can be misinterpreted. The best we can do is to make a set of rules to fit our most common situations and then hope that people will use common sense in interpreting them from there. Generally its pretty easy to tell if something you're saying is breaking the rules.

By that I just meant that it seems weird to have something not at all HR related open for discussion but something potentially HR related is closed. Again I think having the drug testing forum open and be properly moderated would be overall more beneficial than having it closed. Not so much because something hasn't been covered but just for the sake of being thorough.

You're repeatedly bringing up examples of rules that to me have always seemed pretty basic and made sense to me, causing me to try and think of a better way to explain our reasoning for them, so this is what I have some up with: think of it this way, the umbrella rule for all of BL is that we are not here to help you break the law. Hence no sourcing, but drug testing falls under this too. Once you have acquired a drug, which we dont ask you about and we dont help you do, its up to you what you do with it from there. As was mentioned by someone earlier, people are going to take drugs, thats just the reality so we can at least try and make them as safe as possible in doing so, as long as we arent helping you break the law. Acquiring a drug illegally is against the law, the part we wont help you with, but ingesting that drug once you have it isnt the illegal part. This applies to drug testing as well, in 90% of drug testing questions its asking how to cheat a drug test from an employer, again, that is illegal so we arent going to help you do it. Does that make sense? I hope so, its the broadest way I can think to try and explain the reasons for these things.

 

[weekday warrior]

if you have aquestion you wat answered be creative phrase it in a way that does not violate the rules, like...
1.how to cheat on a weed test?
1.1.so my weed test came up negative even though i just smoked weed is there any way this could have happened?
2.will x medication get me fucked?
2.1.what are the effects of x medication? any euphoria?
just phrase it differently and don't ask the question so blatently and it probably wont attract attention

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

It would still be in violation of the rules.

This information is available all over the rest of the Internet.

 

[_a_A_C_c_]

if you have aquestion you wat answered be creative phrase it in a way that does not violate the rules, like...
1.how to cheat on a weed test?
1.1.so my weed test came up negative even though i just smoked weed is there any way this could have happened?
2.will x medication get me fucked?
2.1.what are the effects of x medication? any euphoria?
just phrase it differently and don't ask the question so blatently and it probably wont attract attention

we aren't that stupid 8(

 

[weekday warrior]

^no i know your not stupid its just it would make it easier to turn a blind eye than the blatent way some people ask questions.

 

[_a_A_C_c_]

We created the rules for a reason. If we wanted to turn a blind eye to drug testing questions, we would just allow the questions in the first place.

We don't allow SWIM for similar reasons. It doesn't "protect" you and we all know that you are reffering to yourself.