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Opioids Drug delivery with Nebulizer

muvolution

muvolution

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
4,396
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Pharmacopoeia
Okay, so I DID search, and besides a few ill-informed and misguided old threads I didn't find much.

What say you knowledgeable members of bluelight about using a Nebulizer to deliver drugs more effectively? I don't IV/IM/SC, and have tried all other ROA's.

The theory would be that you would prep a pill or powder into a filtered (ideally w/ a .22 micron wheel filter) solution similar to what you would do for injection or waterlining. At this point, you would place the solution into a nebulizer or hand-held atomizer where it could be delivered directly to the vast surface area of the capillaries in your lungs, resulting in very little metabolism of the drug before entering the bloodstream, as well as a higher efficacy per milligram weight.

From Wikipedia:
A related method, that of nebulizing the drug for inhalation, is often used for morphine to get near-instantaneous pain relief in some pain disorders and painful lung problems (phials and cartridges for respective nebulizers are currently available, with the rule of thumb being that 2 mg of nebulized morphine is equal to 10 mg injected by the subcutaneous, intramuscular, and intravenous route and 1 mg via the various intraspinal routes). And, since hydromorphone has an identical molecular weight, higher milligram potency, and superior lipid solubility, this method works well and is possible to implement with equipment and drug formulations currently on the market.
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This would mean that nebulized hydromorphone (my current DOC) would be 5x as effective when nebulized as opposed to injected. or 10x as effective as simply insuffulating it, and 15x as effective than when taken orally.
On a mg to mg basis, it would put hydromorphone administered this way 40x more effective than intraveneous morphine.

So... the part I am having trouble with is, how do nebulizers work? It is my understanding that there is usually a special cartridge or phial which has the drug suspended in some kind of liquid or gas, but is there a nebulizer/ atomizer which simply uses a refillable resevoir? How would one safely refill a compressed phial of a substance, even something as simple as an inhaler cartridge? Obviously, they are not at the dangerously high pressure of compressed gas cartridges such as whippets, but at the same time, you are dealing with slightly more advanced manufacturing methods... Ideas?
 
Interesting idea. I have a nebulizer for my asthma, it takes 2cc of liquid squirted into a resevoir. Im not sure exactly how the nebulizer works but it would seem that your idea could work very well (with my nebulizer at least). Im might fool around with this tonight. If I get it to work I'll reply later.
 
yeah ive got an asthma one too, theres a thing kinda like a bubbler that you pour the meds into and then they evaporate. I bet it would work.
 
Don't forget to report back, I'm really curious about this I might buy one if I can (and if it's really effective). My regular ecigs don't have an atomizer atm.
 
We can't do brands, eh?
So do most nebulizers work with fluid that you pour in, or do they work with phials and cartridges? If they work with phials, can they be modified to work with a fluid?

Everything says that this should work, and I am very interested in trying it - probably going to pick up a neb off of CL as soon as I get my new script.
 
i remember seeing someone shoot around this idea awhile back, and i too am curious on how effective it is. im guessing the high might not last as long tho as compared to taking orally or by plugging.
 
well they are about $10 to free on Craigslist, so I don't really think it is a huge investment, plus the science is sound, and it would be more effective than intravenous delivery even, so I don't really see any reason NOT to try.
 
Korn3x said:
i remember seeing someone shoot around this idea awhile back, and i too am curious on how effective it is. im guessing the high might not last as long tho as compared to taking orally or by plugging.
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most drugs, once in the body, have a certain halflife that does not depend on mode of delivery.
 
Wow im suprised I never thought of this. Someone who tried this needs to respond back on how exactly they did it.
 
muvolution said:
most drugs, once in the body, have a certain halflife that does not depend on mode of delivery.
Click to expand...

tell me that after you inject ur oxy next time, and ull see that the high is very lacking after 45 mins, and is almost nonexistent.

also, snorting oxy results in the high lasting for about 2 hours.

plugging/oral lasts about 4 hours.
 
Korn3x said:
tell me that after you inject ur oxy next time, and ull see that the high is very lacking after 45 mins, and is almost nonexistent.

also, snorting oxy results in the high lasting for about 2 hours.

plugging/oral lasts about 4 hours.
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Muvolution may have meant the half life doesn't change much once in the blood stream not in the body. If you inject oxy all of it enters the blood stream instantly and the body goes to work on excreting the oxy. If you take it orally for example (or intranasaly) it is gradually released into the blood stream as the pill dissolves, the drug crosses cell membranes and enters the liver ect. The body will start to work on excreting the oxy but it is still coming in slowly from the disolving pill, liver, ect; resulting in a longer high.

Please notice that the wikipedia article say using a nebulizer will make the treatment more effective for pain in some disorders. This will not help people get high over IV use which is instantaneous (no diffusion into blood stream) and 100% BA. It will theoretically create a shorter, rushier high for those people using oral, rectal, nasal.
 
^It wont get IV users higher, but it sure will come close without all the damage. In fact, blood from the lungs hits the brain faster, than say a vein in the arm. So theoretically, using a nebulizer would actually yield 100% BA instantly to the brain.
 
^I can assure you the theoretical yield of a nebulizer is not 100% instantly to the brain 8)

Regarding the original post I don't much trust "rules of thumb" on wikipedia either especially when they say that inhaling a vaporized form of the drug is 5 times stronger than IVing it :\

The maximum serum morphine concentration following inhaled morphine was approx. six times lower than that after morphine i.m. and the time of occurrence differed significantly (P < 0.001). The individual relative bioavailabilities of inhaled morphine varied from 9% to 35%, with a mean of 17%.
http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/61/2/228.short
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The systemic bioavailabilities of morphine (mean ± s.d.) were 5 ± 3% and 24 ± 13% for the nebulized and oral routes respectively. Nebulization is a rapid but inefficient method of administering morphine. It may provide more rapid pain relief compared with oral morphine but clinical studies are needed to confirm this.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2125.1996.tb00192.x/abstract
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Conclusions: The onset and duration of the effects of morphine are similar after intravenous administration or inhalation via this new pulmonary drug delivery system. Morphine bioavailability after such administration is 59% of the dose loaded into the dosage form.
http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiol...netics_and_Pharmacodynamics_of_Inhaled.9.aspx
Click to expand...
 
Yeah my bad I guess I was just speculating. I shouldn't post misinformation like that before being sure. I was basing this on the fact that chemicals once absorbed through the lungs do hit the brain faster than an injection. However, it is impossible to inhale every single amount of hydromorphone vaporized and have it absorbed at one time similar to intravenous injection.
 
First and foremost, you need a really high concentration. Simply because there is one fault and one fault only when using nebulizers.

When you breathe in and hold it, the nebulizer is still pumping drugs in vapor form used or not.
 
This works great.
I would say it is 2-4x as effective as sniffing (with hydromorphone)

As I said, I don't IV, so I can't compare it, but it is stronger than snorting/ plugging/ eating this HM.
 
I made a super-concentrated 2mL solution with 24mg of HM in it, then turned the nebulizer on and tried to breath as much of the vapor as possible, with just tiny little bits of oxygen in between. (I had extensive training in this art from doing whippits in college)
It worked exceptionally well, I got to where I wanted to be with about 110 units of solution left, so I used less than half and got great effects.
I think it's time to go use that other half actually...
 
Just tried this with about 250mg cocaine dissolved in 2ml of nebulizer solution (denaturalized water) and had to say it worked amazingly!!!! It can't compare to crack or IV coke, not even insufflation, since my nebulizer stops automatically after 5mins I need 3 nebulizations (more than 20 mins) to do it, and Iended up with a a few drops of the solution not being nebulized...The euphoric upper high is here in full effect but without it's edge, whichis an amazing thing, but I took a hefty dose of bupe tramadol and benzos today......was trying to see if I could extract a bupe patch into water and try it this way???

Generally I used 35% alcohol and warmed the container with the strip opf patch and solution for a while, let it sit for a couple of days and use the liquid will report... do you think to extract bupe from the patches and nebulizing it will work??? Well I'll report back.

I have some Tramadol Ampoules from ages ago I never used.....hmmmm might be interesting, and midazolam, can't wait for nebulized midazolam!!!!!!


Some questions.

Is it safe to nebulize a solution that has ISA on it, on a maximum level of 35%?
Do the drugs used in the nebulizer need all to be water solluble diluted in water? or say could I dilute flunitrazepam or bromazepam in propylene glycol and nebulize that?
I have an ultrasound nebulizer with the special chamber for the solutions and on the manual it says putting solids is a BIG NO, so I gotta dissolve the drugs, but it also says that using any medication not made for nebulizing may cause malfunction....well the coke worked like a charm, I'm gonna try tramadol bupe zolpidem and midazolam soon, and would appreciate ideas on how to prepare other drugs like Codeine for example, wouldthe results of a CWE work or would I have to further dilute it in Milk?? Guess for Cannabis Milk (Bhang) would be the way to go for nebulization.

Well if anyone had tried out some of this drugs or others and come up with efficient ways to dilute the drugs for them to work properly on an ultrasound nebulizer (I think it'd be the same for a Piston one as well, maybe times would change) please share your knoweledge!!!

Oh I can make the fumes come as hot or cold vapor in my nebulizer, I left the switch as it was which was hot, dunno if that makes any difference.

Great topic!!!
 
I think you are trying to nebulize too many things. I would say no way to Codeine because it causes pulmonary edema when Iv'd so I would imagine sucking it directly into your lungs would be a shitty idea as the oral BA is already nearly 100%. Same with Tramadol, Midazolam, Ambien, etc...

This worked for me because the oral/ intranasal/ rectal BA of hydromorphone is so low in comparison.
 
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