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Benzos Dr's Taper from 4 RC Benzos - 2nd Opinion?

Drench

Drench

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Messages
219
Location
Behind my decks
Hello guys,

I've really gone and gotten myself in deep 'ish' again. I have an extremely large Benzodiazepine problem with RC's Benzos..

I am currently taking these -

Diclazepam 1mg (2-4mg)
Flubromazepam 5mg (25-50mg)
Pyrazolam 0.5mg (2.5mg-5mg)
Etizolam 1mg (5-10mg)

That is my daily 'maintenance' dose...recently I took 10 of each at the same time (75mg collectively) and I stayed awake, stayed lucid and able to type fine. That is when I realised I was really in the shit. "Feck!" I am also abusing other Gabagenic drugs, I'll get to that. Both my GABA A & B receptors must be über downregulated.

I made an urgent phone call to my local doctor's surgery this morning and arranged for my doctor to call me back. FYI I'm in the UK and I have a very good, cooperative doctor.

I received a phone call less than two hours later from my doc so I 'spilled the beans' (told him everything - relating to Benzos), he is a younger doctor and his first comment was "Don't worry Drench", he was very calming and has started me on a Diazepam taper of 50mg per day. He has made it so that I only see him and no other doctor and has arranged weekly appointments. All very helpful for me :)

As mentioned I am in the UK and a 50mg p.d. Diazepam prescription is somewhat unusual. What worries me is, will that be enough to cover the withdrawals from these RC Benzos'? I know Diclazepam and Flubromazepam have long half lives, the other two are much shorter acting and therefore both have a much shorter half lives.

Would any kind bluelights please help me gather any snippets of research that state anything regarding the half lives of the four Benzos? Also anything comparing their efficacy to Diazepam (stronger despite shorter half life etc.) University papers, research papers, intelligent scientific posts etc., anything will be of great help and much appreciated :) The four Benzos' are - Diclazepam, Flurobromazepam/Flubromazepam, Pyrazolam and Etizolam.

I need to put my G.P. completely in the picture, he doesn't know the half lives and at the moment he thinks they are all short acting. At my next appointment I would like to gently educate him on the half lives, he is a very good doctor and he will listen to me, read anything which I bring along which should help us come to a conclusion together.

<Separate Problem>

I am also have a real problem with Pregabalin (taking high doses often). Also, I abuse Baclofen (no habit) and I use Phenibut (no habit). I also sometimes abuse Gabapentin (being Pregabalins' younger brother), but I really just keep some in stock for *NO PREGABALIN! AHHHH!!* emergencies.

I will discuss this with my doctor early next week. I believe I have a 150mg p.d. prescription to pick up so I should be OK for the next few days, although I am likely to 'top-up' my dosage when the times get tough.

I truly appreciate any help/time that any of you put into helping me out of this predicament, I am somewhat lost. Whoever helps the most gets a prize! OJ 8(;)

Note to mods: If you think this is OD then please feel free to move, although I believe it belongs here.

Peace and love to all of my fellow BL'rs.

Drench
 
I am assuming that you already know about the Ashton Manual, right? That seems to be the gold standard. I know many doctors in the States don't have a clue about it but I would imagine this is not so in the UK. Am I wrong about that?

Good luck on the taper. Have you lined up some counseling as well, to try to deal with underlying issues? If you manage to get the drugs under control but whatever drove you to over-using is still intact, it is going to be a short victory. Trying to understand your motivations, needs and triggers can be complicated and sometimes even frightening but it is worth it.<3
 
Hi brothers and sisters,

Yeah, I've used the Ashton manual and on a previous prescription Benzo' problem it helped a lot.

This time it's use is very limited, I know how to taper with Diazepam but it doesn't contain any information of these new RC Benzos'. One thing that interested me, I have been gobbling RC Benzos' for a long time without any aggression side effects. Last night I popped two 10mg Diazepams' and I got uncharacteristically aggressive (I wasn't violent, just...nuts, mad, bonkers...)

I had drunk 2 litres (4 pints) of 5% strength lager beer, but the RCs have still never done this to me, even when drunk. The Diazepam seemed to instantly turn me into a mean, lean douchbag machine. Are the RCs fake? Lower in strength than portrayed? Simply less aggression promoting?

I really need help finding some papers on the mentioned Benzos', is anyone out there who isn't messed up enough to help me find them? I know google is my friend here, but I cannot bring myself to do it. I am ashamed of myself.

I am having counselling and it's shit. I need to see a real Psychiatrist, not a councillor. I will discuss this with my doctor next week.

Little help?

Warm Regards,

Drench
 
I think your starting diazepam dose should be higher... 1 mg diclazepam is about 10 mg diazepam, 4 mg flubromazepam is about 10 mg diazepam, 1 mg etizolam is about 5-10 mg diazepam (I'd say 5, some sources say 10), 1 mg pyrazolam is about 10 mg diazepam (not sure if it applies that simply to pyrazolam since it's more selective for some GABAa receptor subtypes than most benzos). So you're taking a diazepam equivalent between 20 mg (from the diclazepam) + 60 (from the flubro) + 25 (from the pyrazolam) + 25 (from the etizolam) = 140 mg to 280 mg diazepam per day. Other than that everything from the Ashton manual should still apply.
 
black53 said:
I think your starting diazepam dose should be higher... 1 mg diclazepam is about 10 mg diazepam, 4 mg flubromazepam is about 10 mg diazepam, 1 mg etizolam is about 5-10 mg diazepam (I'd say 5, some sources say 10), 1 mg pyrazolam is about 10 mg diazepam (not sure if it applies that simply to pyrazolam since it's more selective for some GABAa receptor subtypes than most benzos). So you're taking a diazepam equivalent between 20 mg (from the diclazepam) + 60 (from the flubro) + 25 (from the pyrazolam) + 25 (from the etizolam) = 140 mg to 280 mg diazepam per day. Other than that everything from the Ashton manual should still apply.
Click to expand...

That is great. Can you give me any sources confirming those equivalences?
 
As us Brit's know, every little helps! Thanks black :)

I'm seeing my doctor today, my fingers are crossed.

Drench
 
No problem, hope you manage to get off the benzos with as little trouble as possible.
 
Drench said:
Hello guys,

I've really gone and gotten myself in deep 'ish' again. I have an extremely large Benzodiazepine problem with RC's Benzos..

I am currently taking these -

Diclazepam 1mg (2-4mg)
Flubromazepam 5mg (25-50mg)
Pyrazolam 0.5mg (2.5mg-5mg)
Etizolam 1mg (5-10mg)

That is my daily 'maintenance' dose...recently I took 10 of each at the same time (75mg collectively) and I stayed awake, stayed lucid and able to type fine. That is when I realised I was really in the shit. "Feck!" I am also abusing other Gabagenic drugs, I'll get to that. Both my GABA A & B receptors must be über downregulated.

I made an urgent phone call to my local doctor's surgery this morning and arranged for my doctor to call me back. FYI I'm in the UK and I have a very good, cooperative doctor.

I received a phone call less than two hours later from my doc so I 'spilled the beans' (told him everything - relating to Benzos), he is a younger doctor and his first comment was "Don't worry Drench", he was very calming and has started me on a Diazepam taper of 50mg per day. He has made it so that I only see him and no other doctor and has arranged weekly appointments. All very helpful for me :)

As mentioned I am in the UK and a 50mg p.d. Diazepam prescription is somewhat unusual. What worries me is, will that be enough to cover the withdrawals from these RC Benzos'? I know Diclazepam and Flubromazepam have long half lives, the other two are much shorter acting and therefore both have a much shorter half lives.

Would any kind bluelights please help me gather any snippets of research that state anything regarding the half lives of the four Benzos? Also anything comparing their efficacy to Diazepam (stronger despite shorter half life etc.) University papers, research papers, intelligent scientific posts etc., anything will be of great help and much appreciated :) The four Benzos' are - Diclazepam, Flurobromazepam/Flubromazepam, Pyrazolam and Etizolam.

I need to put my G.P. completely in the picture, he doesn't know the half lives and at the moment he thinks they are all short acting. At my next appointment I would like to gently educate him on the half lives, he is a very good doctor and he will listen to me, read anything which I bring along which should help us come to a conclusion together.

<Separate Problem>

I am also have a real problem with Pregabalin (taking high doses often). Also, I abuse Baclofen (no habit) and I use Phenibut (no habit). I also sometimes abuse Gabapentin (being Pregabalins' younger brother), but I really just keep some in stock for *NO PREGABALIN! AHHHH!!* emergencies.

I will discuss this with my doctor early next week. I believe I have a 150mg p.d. prescription to pick up so I should be OK for the next few days, although I am likely to 'top-up' my dosage when the times get tough.

I truly appreciate any help/time that any of you put into helping me out of this predicament, I am somewhat lost. Whoever helps the most gets a prize! OJ 8(;)

Note to mods: If you think this is OD then please feel free to move, although I believe it belongs here.

Peace and love to all of my fellow BL'rs.

Drench
Click to expand...


I think it will, when I initiated a taper from 4.5mg of clonazepam a day with my psychiatrist he started me up on 55mg of diazepam for a week, 50 the next, 45 etc. until I got to a reasonable level (20mg a day). I'm still stuck there since then (late 2010) but I'm way way more clear headed now, you don't notice it but damn benzos affect memory in subtle ways even when you can take your 4.5mg of clonazepam a day + 12 pack of beer everyday like I did for a year when I broke up with a long time girlfriend and moved back to my mom's house. I would be able to play very complex games like Victoria 2 (and accomplish quite crazy things with the French) until I was too drunk (at about 4-5 am, going to sleep at 4-5pm) like I did.

You can do it. Don't go for a full on taper if unable to, my doctor understood I still needed an anxiolytic, but at a much more normal dose with a weaker benzo.
 
If you wait until you are withdrawing then the 50mg of diazepam will help a lot more than if you just take it when you would normally take your next dose. If it's not fully helping right away just give it some since it will build up in your system.

When you are taking higher doses of a drug 1/3 of that dosage will usually hold you considering you wait long enough to take it. There was a time when I was taking 10-14mg of alrapzolam most days to get high, but if I couldn't get any then 3-4mg would hold me alright. It's when you get to the low doses that it gets hard. Also, do not drink at all while tapering.
 
Tommyboy said:
If you wait until you are withdrawing then the 50mg of diazepam will help a lot more than if you just take it when you would normally take your next dose. If it's not fully helping right away just give it some since it will build up in your system.

When you are taking higher doses of a drug 1/3 of that dosage will usually hold you considering you wait long enough to take it. There was a time when I was taking 10-14mg of alrapzolam most days to get high, but if I couldn't get any then 3-4mg would hold me alright. It's when you get to the low doses that it gets hard. Also, do not drink at all while tapering.
Click to expand...

Just him because of what he's been using or people tapering in general? I've been lightly drinking during my taper. :\
 
Using other drugs acting on GABA receptors is counter productive to your goal (aka, getting rid of the addiction to benzos). Sure a drink here and there won't matter, but doing it regularly... you're just replacing one drug with another.
 
I see. I only drink 1-2 ounces a day and not everyday but probably more than I should since I'm tapering. Oh well I'm still doing good, I dropped 50% in 3 weeks and as of today one month since I started my taper.
 
As long as you're not drinking more to compensate for the decreased benzo dose :)
 
Hi guys, I took quite a bit of information along to my last appointment and my doctor stopped my taper and referred me to my local clueless (from experience) drug-counselling charity. He advised me to try and taper with these Chinese??? research chemical benzos :? :(

The charity in question specialise in heroin, cocaine, cannabis, ecstasy, amphetamine abuse etc. The old school 'street' drugs of abuse. The last time I saw them the councillor ended up taking personal notes on all the 'legal highs' I could name for her own future use! (MXE, Cannabinoids etc.) 8)

They do not know anything about pharmaceuticals, certainly not research benzos...

My doctor has advised me to make an appointment with a different doctor (he has a two week holiday), go with my dad (I am 20+ 8)) and bring all of my research benzos, to be disposed of by the doctor. I then have to hope and pray that this doctor will resume my 50mg Diazepam taper - there is no guarantee that this will happen :\

I am not particularly happy with this situation but I am at the mercy of the NHS.

I am starting to feel like my medical record says "DANGER: ULTRA HIGH RISK DRUG ABUSER, DO NOT TREAT WITH MEDICATION, IF NECESSARY FOB OFF WITH SSRIs"

If I am not put back on my taper what, theoretically of course, would be the best research benzo to taper with? Flubromazepam? I can't really afford anything but I will try if needed.

Surely any doctor has a duty to safely taper me off a serious Benzodiazepine addiction with Diazepam?

If I am not put on a taper I will have to call the NHS non-emergency number, either that or visit my local A&E?

I appreciate the help guys.

Drench
 
Sorry about your doc man. You could use flubromazepam to taper (the hl is long enough), but it's imo not the ideal choice because it is the funnest of all the widely available rc benzos, so controlling your intake will be the hardest. Diclazepam would be better suited for this. It's (+active metabolites) hl is also very long + it's much less fun so controlling intake should be easier. I would buy diclazepam powder, dissolve it in peg (1mg/ml.... higher concentrations are harder since it's solubility sucks), convert the diazepam doses to diclezepam (10 mg diazepam ~ 1 mg diclezepam) and go by the Ashton manual from there.

So using the equivalences from the previous posts you'd start between 14 and 28 mg diclazepam per day (I'd go for 21 since it's in the middle lol) and then reduce it like stated in the Ashton manual (except that instead of diazepam you're using diclazepam which is about 10 times as potent, so adjust the reductions accordingly). Good luck!
 
Well I would not take the new doc your whole stash of benzos. Way to dangerous if he leaves you high and dry. Maybe you should lie and say your addicted to Valium and need a taper? Might be easier on everyone involved.
 
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