DRIs vs DRAs against AD(H)D

[c0rt3x]

I'm wondering what class of Dopamine related drugs (against AD{H}D) you prefer and why...

After I got my ADD diagnosis I started the therapy with Methylphenidate. This common (Noradrenaline + ) Dopamine Re-uptake Inhibitor seemed to incredibly boosted my brain-power and I became several times more productive especially when doing complex thinks like programming.

That was a quite great time.

But after about 2 years of daily consuming Methylphenidate the side effects of it became so bad (actually I've even became allergic of it) that I had no other choice than stop taking it.

So I looked for alternatives - and of course Amphetamine and Dextroamphetamine were worth trying!

And, yeah, those Dopamin (and Noradrenaline) Releasing Agent(s) helped against ADD - but they couldn't bring me back to that high level of focus thak I had reached while I was on Methylphenidate - although their side effects are much milder.


So I'm wondering why Methylphenidate did a so much better job for me - and what your experiences are with both DRIs and DRAs...


Do you think Bupropione could be a coequal replacement for Methylphenidate?

 

[Cloud_9]

Do you think Bupropione could be a coequal replacement for Methylphenidate?

I just remember Bupropion being one of the most intellectually stimulating; focus driven, gloriously confident, and wonderfully easy periods in my life even amongst a semester packed with 5 of the hardest classes I have taken... Until I had a seizure; dropped out halfway through as I couldn't drive because once an individual here has an undiagnosed seizure their license is confiscated until they are re-evaluated which took 3 months, and even if I could get to class; I was so suicidally depressed I couldn't get out of bed...

No matter how much I beg and plead to my new psychiatrist that the one before put me on an almost suicidal amount of the drug to take every day (600mg/day!) he refused to put me back on something that was contra-indicated and listed as a "allergy" in my chart.

Oh well.... not entirely bad, but d-amphetamine is comparable. I agree though; re-uptake agents do seem to keep that sharpness without blurring reality into a edge if you understand what I mean. I just felt a little more naturally "fresh" and performing at my best on Bupropion whereas now I feel very much like I am on a drug with d-amphetamine, not a bad feeling per-se, but not natural at all. Don't know what that says about DRIs vs D-RAs, but my story if you care to read.

 

[c0rt3x]

Oh well.... not entirely bad, but d-amphetamine is comparable. I agree though; re-uptake agents do seem to keep that sharpness without blurring reality into a edge if you understand what I mean. I just felt a little more naturally "fresh" and performing at my best on Bupropion whereas now I feel very much like I am on a drug with d-amphetamine, not a bad feeling per-se, but not natural at all. Don't know what that says about DRIs vs D-RAs, but my story if you care to read.

Yes I appreciate any kind of feedback - thx cloud.

Maybe DRIs are helping better than DRAs against AD(H)D since they don't have much influence to the relative dopamine concentration between brain regions with low or high levels thereof - while DRAs could cause heavy dopamine release even in neurons/synapsis wich had a very low level of it before...

I think I'm going to try Bupropion during the next week(s). But in order to prevent seizures I think I'll need to take an anticonvulsant drug along with it, too, since I'm currently using Clomipramine as well in order to increase (really needed) analgetic effects of Buprenorphine.
So It should not cause any relevant degrees of tiredness.
What anticonvulsant would you recommend for this purpose?

 

[Cloud_9]

Yes I appreciate any kind of feedback - thx cloud.

Maybe DRIs are helping better than DRAs against AD(H)D since they don't have much influence to the relative dopamine concentration between brain regions with low or high levels thereof - while DRAs could cause heavy dopamine release even in neurons/synapsis wich had a very low level of it before...

I have always found that DRAs tend to almost "force the happy" and can even have you experiencing pleasure in an almost negative way. Maybe you understand what I am saying; but I do agree that it could have something to do with not so much vesicle release or reverse transporting those dopamine/nor-epinephrine molecules so much as just keeping what you have optimized.

I also noticed that when I was on the DRI, be it only for about 5 months, (excluding ritalin/focalin) I didn't really have so much of a "drop off plateau" that I know many people on Adderal/Dexedrine/Vyvanse or other amphetamine-like drugs can get after a while of use, where it almost seems like, yeah, your brain is getting the message to "open the flood gates" for the DA/NE release, but it is so quick on the MAO draw (or other tolerance-type mechanics) that you will feel a pleasurable focus-driven sensation; but nothing close to those however many weeks/months where it brightened up everything about your persona, not nearly as long lasting, or not nearly as pushy. This effect is well-known to last even years after use. Perhaps it is the body's NDMA memory in action, I do not know, but it sure frustrates me some times!

Ritalin and more specifically to me Focalin; while I didn't like the side-effects of being super moody and lethargic only 2-3 hours after the last dose, it did have a lot more "natural" enthusiasm about life, almost like how cocaine can feel that way; but again, less pushy. The only reason I switched off of it was due to awful insomnia and again, the moodiness was noticeable even to me at 16.

 

[c0rt3x]

I have always found that DRAs tend to almost "force the happy" and can even have you experiencing pleasure in an almost negative way. Maybe you understand what I am saying;

Indeed DRAs tend to make me switch from ADD to ADHD and lead me to sub-consciously enjoy spending days on useless activities - while DRIs seem to have much more balanced effects and allow me to focus on what ever is necessary.

 

[Cloud_9]

What anticonvulsant would you recommend for this purpose?

Almost forgot about this until I came back! Uhm, personally I think you should be talking to your neurologist about this, or whomever may be making the medical decisions in your life at the present. But in lack anything worse; I guess I could recommend some I was on that weren't absolutely awful drool-tastic drugs!

Lamotrigine (Lamictal): Not much of any sedating effects to mention that usually come with other traditional earlier generation anti-convulsants. It is also used as an adjunct medication in bipolar treatment, primarily to suppress and shorten episodes of depression; so not a total wastoid drug like something like fucking potassium bromide.

Phenytoin Sodium (Dilantin): Again, not too sedating; though I would double up at the end of the day to get some sleep as they wouldn't give me any types of bensodiasepenes seeing the giant bolded marker saying "DRUG SEEKING" even with a fucking seizure episode that nearly bashed my brains open. Nonetheless... One of the oldest non-vegetative-state-inducing anti-convulsants, one of the most prescribed first line among the guaranteed seizure stoppers.

Diazepam (Valium): Need I say anything more? This is a drug for the abuse of recreational drugs, but it is also a very common drug used to augment seizure disorders.

Phenobarbital: Ugh, way over-rated as "drug of abuse." There is a reason it is used as a first-line emergency medication; and usually not given for first-time seizure victims. Stuff is sedating and intoxicating as hell; but not in a pleasurable way, though hell, people huff inhalants and eat nutmeg here!

Pregbalin (Lyrica): Didn't know this was a anti-convulsant until I just looked them up on Wikipedia! Great medication for analgesia if you need that aspect augmented. But as far as seisure control, I'm not so sure about its use as I was prescribed it for neuropathy from surgery, but if you do get it; as you know, its commonly abused. I don't find it pleasurable, but it is somewhat like an alternative to alcohol but more floaty-euphoric and less stumble around until you fuck a couch intoxicating.

*Racetams: Don't know anything about the possibility of seizure control; though I saw "Leviracetam" listed on the anti-convulsant page. Uhm... nootropic, somewhat stimulating, though this is from "Piracetam" and other derivatives and not sure if still applicable...

 

[Jamshyd]

Indeed DRAs tend to make me switch from ADD to ADHD and lead me to sub-consciously enjoy spending days on useless activities

IMO, this means that you have neither, and are simply getting high on amphetamine. After all, to "enjoy spending days on useless activities" is pretty much the definition of being tweaked, and apparently people with AD(H)D should be experiencing the opposite.

 

[c0rt3x]

IMO, this means that you have neither

You should consider what I didn't mention explicitly:

I'm talking about the effects of quite high doses which are thus not therapeutical anyway.

Although you're right when you think that I'm most often getting high on it - this doesn't mean that I can't have ADD at the same time!

Please keep in mind that people who have ADD (without hyperactivity) usually DO experience stimulation even of small doses - in opposite of those with hyperactivity.

 

[Cloud_9]

IMO, this means that you have neither, and are simply getting high on amphetamine. After all, to "enjoy spending days on useless activities" is pretty much the definition of being tweaked, and apparently people with AD(H)D should be experiencing the opposite.

Please keep in mind that people who have ADD (without hyperactivity) usually DO experience stimulation even of small doses - in opposite of those with hyperactivity.

Well, I don't have any literature to back this up; though I'm sure I could wrangle some up, but I think both of you are right! At least according to my experiences with amphetamines and methylphenidates.

The first ADHD medication I had took in regards to ADHD was Adderal... Took (1) 20mg IR tablet; 45m later I was so exhausted I crashed into my bed; but of course being on a stimulant didn't sleep. At least I felt like I believed I should be for so long! So much more "normal" even without moving; just lying on the bed thinking, without changing subjects ridiculously too fast to remember the last thought...

We eventually tried a couple medications and I've come to settle on liking 15mg Dexedrine XRs for the lack of those stupid levi-isomers which really seemed to make me really unable to physically move after taking any really, so fuck them!

When I wake up in the morning I take my medication, frantically cook breakfast, throw on a T shirt, run back to grab breakfast in my underwear, back to put pants on, back to get syrup, back for hat/coat, back for water, sit down, get up and grab back-pack. Point is; about 30m later I can finally complete a task with efficient thoughtful action and not blits around like I'm tweaked out on meth, which is how I look without my meds really. I immediately stop an obsessive habit I have with highlighting everything on a page as I read, while twirling the mouse scroll-wheel and can just sit still. I might be a little calmer, even to the point where a couple times after dosing in the afternoon I have fallen asleep on 30mg of IR no problem because I was just so relaxed I guess is a better word than sedated. But I can sometimes also find if I take too much because I feel myself fidgeting or doing something ADHD again before I am getting ready for bed, I'll be taking a shower and see my pupils are huge in the mirror; even with daily methadone and be really awake but almost sleepy in a way. Point is; its not "supposed" to make ADHD kids super somber, but it can have that effect. Other times it can get them rearing to go and do homework at lightning speed!

Who knows, maybe amphetamines benefit everyone; but I am not going to argue the "You don't have ADHD if amps make you energized!" question because everyone responds differently. I say all that matters is if it helps your living situation enough to warrant the possible side-effects, and long term risks.

 

[pofacedhoe]

IMO, this means that you have neither, and are simply getting high on amphetamine. After all, to "enjoy spending days on useless activities" is pretty much the definition of being tweaked, and apparently people with AD(H)D should be experiencing the opposite.

definitely some truth there

 

[Jamshyd]

You should consider what I didn't mention explicitly:

I'm talking about the effects of quite high doses which are thus not therapeutical anyway.

Although you're right when you think that I'm most often getting high on it - this doesn't mean that I can't have ADD at the same time!

Please keep in mind that people who have ADD (without hyperactivity) usually DO experience stimulation even of small doses - in opposite of those with hyperactivity.

This only leads me to strengthen my opinion that AD(H)D is a neat little invention that serves a dual purpose:

a. So that big pharma have a reason to legally sell Speed,

And

b. So that lazy parents can remain lazy.

Of course you'll feel "cured of your disease" when you get high. That's the point of getting high: to feel fine.

Like I said in the past on BL, if meth were to be indicated for back injury, people will still find it to be useful medicine!

It is my opinion that "AD(H)D" is simply one of the many manifestations of depression - after all, I never even believed in ADD, yet now that I take wellbutrin for depression, I can actually focus on finishing things that I started - something that depression didn't allow me to do.

Take for example the fact that many people find Heroin to be a fantastic cure for "AD(H)D". Something is just not adding up properly there...

 

[c0rt3x]

ADD (without H.) can look like someone is depressed - but people who are hyperactive as well don't seem to be depressed at all.

However I think this discussion is going too much off topic - so please try to focus (if you can ) on DRAs and DRIs again...

 

[ebola?]

I was going to comment on this:

IMO, this means that you have neither, and are simply getting high on amphetamine. After all, to "enjoy spending days on useless activities" is pretty much the definition of being tweaked, and apparently people with AD(H)D should be experiencing the opposite.

But we're apparently on nearly the same page. Those diagnosed with either 'disorder' tend to respond to stimulants similarly to 'normals'. Insofar as AD(H)D actually points to a valid difference between people, it is toward differing attentional 'styles', those diagnosed with ADD being driven by more 'bottom-up' cues, that is novel stimuli that 'pop-up', normal individuals guided by a comparatively higher proportion of 'top-down', a priori 'directives'. Given normal individuals low doses of stimulants, and they too will undergo a shift in attentional style toward top-down motivation (at high doses, to the point of pathology).

And then you're right: a whole host of socially rooted issues can present like 'pure ADD', particularly to lazy and/or hurried parents. If a child is abused, particularly sexually, that will often cause a set of 'distractions' resembling ADD to comparatively ignorant instructors. And then there is confusion between ADD and "oppositional defiant disorder", a catch-all for "my child is unruly".
...
Although I have never been diagnosed with ADD, the above justifies the relevance of my personal experience. On DRIs, I'm very likely to get caught-up doing useless but compulsively rewarding things. I also really dislike their subjective feel, there being an underlying antsiness that kind of ruins any potential good time. DA releasers appear to work rather well though.

ebola

 

[nods]

Low doses of Dex~5-15mg lowers fatigue, improves mood in MOST people, they also increase alertness, concentration, attention, in MOST people, thats why truckers call them 'co-pilots'

Come on folks, these pills do something positively noticable fairly quickly, thats why they have street value.

 

[ebola?]

 

[melange]

^lol

 

[negrogesic]

I too have problems with the concept of "add/adhd", but personally I prefer the reuptake inhibitors, yet I also find them more "recreational".

L-methylphenidate sucks, increases the body load (gas, stomach upset etc), worsens the comedown, and is pretty useless. Focalin (d-MPH) is far superior, and feels almost like an entirely different drug. Trouble is, it is shorter acting than amphetamine, but they do make Focalin XR, which is good, and deters abuse.

Snorting focalin is very addictive; while it doesnt has the euphoria of cocaine because of its virtual lack of affinity for the SERT (something like >10,000 nM ), it is potent DAT uptake inhibitor, i believe with an affinity around 30nM (cocaine is in the hundreds, but also in the hundreds if nM for SERT inhibition). Thus it can be very addictive when SNORTED, but it doesnt have the mood improving qualities of cocaine, which when snorted rapidly inhibits the SERT.

In the end, it depends on the person. Amphetamines make me zombie and do repetitive or non-productive shit. Focalin will focus me on a task, but when snorted it can be counterproductive and encourges re-administration.

Does anyone know if MDPV or 2-DPMP (desoxypipradrol) has any real affinity for the SERT? I've never had either before, but if tried it I would be able to tell pretty quickly. My thinking is that neither has significant SERT affinities, but I am unsure.

 

[Ne0]

IMO, this means that you have neither, and are simply getting high on amphetamine. After all, to "enjoy spending days on useless activities" is pretty much the definition of being tweaked, and apparently people with AD(H)D should be experiencing the opposite.

True that. Whenever I'm on amphetamine or methylphenidate I find extremely pointless and boring to spend my day on internet or other useless activities and so I do something meaningful, normally I sit on internet about 6-12h and actually don't do shit on there, I'd say its hard to quit doing it.

 

[forensic bob]

Would Amphetamine and Methylphenidate be examples of DRIs or DRAs?

 

[dread]

Amphetamine = DRA, Methylphenidate = DRI