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Dosing with multiple synthetics?

N

nife

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
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43
Ok, ok... First of all, let me clearly state that this question is not being asked because I plan on doing this. I've just been thinking a lot about this lately and have become very curious about it...

Where to start? Ultimately, my question is this: What would happen if one were to mix very small amounts of a large number of synthetic phenethylamines and tryptamines? Let's say, for example, that someone ingested 2mg 2C-E, 2mg 2C-I, 2mg 2C-T-4, 1mg 2C-P, 2mg 4-AcO-MiPT, 8mg 2C-C, and 2mg 4-HO-DiPT (or any similar number of synthetics at these types of doses)... Would the all of the effects build on each other to create a fully psychedelic experience, or would it be like experiencing the sub-threshold effects of each of the afforementioned 7 compounds simultaneously?

Please don't get me wrong here, I do know that actually doing this would NOT be a good idea... We all know that these are, for the most part, unresearched chemicals by themselves, and mixing said chemicals could easily be multiplying the risks involved. With that in mind, I'd say my question could apply to the more traditional psychedelics with a much, much longer history of use: 30mcg LSD, 0.5g cubensis, etc...

Let me know what you guys think or know about this kind of thing... =D
 
That would certainly be unexplored territory. Interesting concept...different cannibinols interact with THC in different strains to produce different effects; likewise with alkaloids in Peyote and (forget the term for mushrooms) that interact with psilocybin to produce varying effects in different strains of psychedelic fungus.

Could this same concept apply to multiple synthetics? If well synthesized, they are relatively free of other substances to interfere with the central action of each compound. But could combining multiple 'pure' synthetics in small amounts mimic the way natural psychedelics effects are influenced by other substances in the plant? I would think, in this theory, you would need a regular dose of one compound, then add very tiny amounts of multiple others to see if it altered the experience.

Combining a motley crew of all very small doses, and not have any at their active dose range, would be a different story.
From my limited knowledge, I can't see it doing much of anything other than the obvious potential danger. If it wasn't toxic enough to kill you, would you even trip? Would you feel anything? I couldn't imagine threshold effects of multiple compounds simultaneously...I would expect it to be very confusing and annoying if it did affect your consciousness...then again it may produce a nightmare scenario (both physical and mental).

This is probably suited for the advanced drug discussion because we need a chemist's perspective on this.
 
think of it this way, if you take 20mg of 2c-e you're ingesting 20mg of a psychedelic pea.

i don't see a difference in taking 20mg of 2c-e and 20mg of other random pea's, it's still 20mg of pea.
 
Good question - in terms of receptor binding etc. the concn/activation response isn't linear, so you can't just add them all together (also the tryptamines also act on the 5HT1a receptor as well as the 5HT2a/2c that the PEA's do). If you want, I'll move this over to ADD as BilZ0r might be the best person to answer this (my pharmacokinetics is very rusty after years of it being a hobby rather than being the main thing I'm involved with)
 
The most of ive tried together is 3 at once (2C-I 2C-E and 4Aco-MiPT) all at active dosages. they were all time delayed to coincide with the comeups of the others..
It worked pretty good though just 2C-I and 2C-E is just about as good. Although the breakthrough to the other side was a bit easier. +3 maybe low +4 but I doubt it.
 
I've tried taking tiny dosages of various things mixed together....and in nearly every occasion the drugs consumed multiplied each other's actions....so don't assume 20mg 2C-E = 5mg+5mg+5mg+5mg 2Cx.
 
fastandbulbous, please feel free to move this thread to ADD... I was actually thinking about posting it there first, but figured it would be moved if it was deemed appropriate. Thanks for your responses thus far guys! :)

edit: mgs, for the most part I figured they would most-likely multiply each others effects beyond sub-threshold effects; I was hoping someone would post saying they've tried it or something similar to confirm this little theory... I've got some ideas that I want to post but don't have the time just now, but hopefully will a bit later. ;)
 
I have read of at least two distinct cases where threshold or sub-threshold doses of multiple different compounds were combined resulting in unexpectedly strong effects with reportedly persistent after-effects. In at least one of the cases someone reported they started out by taking “minute doses of 2ci, 2ce, 2ct7, 5meodmt and cannabis.” The next night they had “10mg of 2ci, about 50mg MDMA, a few beers ketamine and weed.” Per their report it may have elicited long-term effects something like a ‘permanent body-load’ that is exacerbated by cannabis use.

Given that there is some thought that 2C-T-7 may have some MOAI actions (chime in if you know of specific refs on this guys) it is certainly reasonable to expect that there would be a multiplicative rather than additive effect with other drugs. At the very least all combinations of largely unresearched / poorly understood compounds should be treated as an entirely novel drug and should be restarted from sub-threshold levels (if at all). Multiple combinations (3+) is just asking for trouble. If this sounds ridiculous bear in mind that Shulgin took as many as 18 or more doses of some compounds before he even made it up to a single milligram (see also commentary for PiHKAL entry #3 Aleph).

Bullet point here? 1+1 may = 2 or 1+1 may = 10 and 1+1+1 could = about anything.

I B
 
wouldnt he be a greater risk by mixing multiple compounds like that? theres a better chance of something going wrong
 
Given that there is some thought that 2C-T-7 may have some MOAI actions (chime in if you know of specific refs on this guys)
Click to expand...


J Med Chem. 2005 Apr 7;48 (7):2407-19.
Sulfur-substituted alpha-alkyl phenethylamines as selective and reversible MAO-A inhibitors: biological activities, CoMFA analysis, and active site modeling.
Gallardo-Godoy A, Fierro A, McLean TH, Castillo M, Cassels BK, Reyes-Parada M, Nichols DE.


Original Data from:
Scorza, M. C.; Carrau, C.; Silveira, R.; Zapata-Torres, G.; Cassels,
B. K.; Reyes-Parada, M. Monoamine oxidase inhibitory properties of some methoxylated and alkylthio amphetamine derivatives: structure-activity relationships.
Biochem. Pharmacol. 1997, 54, 1361-1369.


2C-T-7, unfortunately, is not among the compounds mentioned in this study. Though from the data present, it would seem to follow naturally that 2C-T-7 would also exhibit some MAOI effects.
 

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^ I believe BilZ0r posted a ref in a thread in ADD that gave the IC50 concn for 2C-T-7 w.r.t. MAO-A and it was a concn that would be achieved by an effective dose of said drug in vivo.
 
BilZ0r, any unspoken theories you might have about this type of thing? :)
 
I used to also have this idea about 7-8 years ago. I would just flick through PIHKAL/TIHKAL and fucken pick drugs like I was selecting flavors for candy and then imagine how kraaazzzyyy it would be to mix them up and then pass them off as xtc pills.

My personal view on this was that it would be too much of a toxic soup with ill defined effects and probably alot more hazardous than taking either substance on its own.

But you can always incorporate a small amount of a background drug into the mdma. This might be meth, pcp, dimethylserotonin, mda, mdea, amt, etc.

Remember something: The junky gets not what he asked for, he gets what he's flaming well given!
 
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You might end up something like this guy. Doesn't seem like a great idea to me, but I have daydreamed about it curiously before. I used to be the kind of person who'd go to a party and sample a little bit of everything everyone brought there; this usually resulted in me not remembering good portions of the evening.
 
The effects will just add linearly on top of each other. It's the same as if you take a combination of opioids or benzos or barbiturates. The effect is always additive. Each compound will add a bit of activation of the receptor, and the sum of these activation determines the total effect. That's basic pharmacology.
 
The effect is always additive... That's basic pharmacology.
Click to expand...

Er, no - some can inhibit each others metabolism and as I mentioned previously, drug concn vs receptor activation isn't just a simple linear relationship (also some, like the tryptamines act on more receptor subtypes than the PEA's/amphetamines)- that's why it got moved to ADD
 
You need to think more thoroughly, FnB. Let's assume:

Compound X: 5-HT2A 30% activation; 5-HT2C 25% activation at 10 nM.
Compound Y: 5-HT1A 65% activation; 5-HT2A 30% activation at 10 nM.

Then our mixture will give us: 5-HT1A 65%; 5-HT2A ~60%; 5-HT2C 25%. That's the sum.

That one inhibits the metabolism of the other is speculation unless you have proof that is does.
 
Cagliostro said:
You need to think more thoroughly, FnB. Let's assume:

Compound X: 5-HT2A 30% activation; 5-HT2C 25% activation at 10 nM.
Compound Y: 5-HT1A 65% activation; 5-HT2A 30% activation at 10 nM.

Then our mixture will give us: 5-HT1A 65%; 5-HT2A ~60%; 5-HT2C 25%. That's the sum.

That one inhibits the metabolism of the other is speculation unless you have proof that is does.
Click to expand...



And if any of those compounds have MAO augmenting activity then the whole system changes to a potentially lethal and pretty much unpredictable scale by todays neuroscience knowledge

unless ur absolutely positive of the effects of all the compounds, its a pretty dangerous idea.
 
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