Opioids Does using while tapering ruin the whole taper?

[angelomorgano]

Hi.

I have been using opiods for 3 months every day now so I am dependent on them. Started with oxycodone IR (at 40-60mg), then the dealer was out, he gave me oxycodone extended release, but I didn't like that at all, so he gave me pure 10mg/ml morphine ampules. I don't inject so I plug them, about 50mg (5ml) at a time. I noticed that morphine really triggers my breathing, it starts squeeking and I need to use an inhaler. Switched plugging heroin,which affects my breathing a little less but noticably more than oxy.

I decided to quit after new year by tapering for a few weeks, I started with methadone 10mg per day, but I noticed my heart rate dropped. I found reports of sinus bradycardia, so I quit that and switched back to heroin for a few days and yesterday I started suboxone 3mg, today 2mg.

I want to use during christmas and new year. Does this ruin a week long taper with suboxone? Is it better to just use heroin instead, maybe at a low dose?

 

[Ganjcat]

Nah we all slip up every now and then don't let that worry ya

 

[Hylight]

And sure. Try to do less as possible. In longer duration also.

 

[angelomorgano]

Ok, so it is fine to:
tapering with suboxone,
then quitting suboxone 2 days before christmas
and then use heroin for a few days,
then switch back to suboxone in januari

I am not on maintenance

 

[vacuole]

Yes, it ruins the taper. You wouldn't be tapering more, you'd be back to square one. And also, it likely wouldn't be worth it with subs in your system, as has already been said.

 

[angelomorgano]

Okay, as an update:
I took subs every day as follows:
2mg, 1.5mg, 3mg, 3mg, 3mg, 1mg, then the next day I switched back to heroin for 2 days, it worked perfectly and quite strong, as if my tolerence had already dropped.

I continued the taper the day after heroin starting at 4mg suboxone and then dropped 0.5mg every day, this is the second day without subs and I switched to high dose vitamin c (sodium ascorbate 7g every 2.5 hours) and kratom. Today is the first day I slept only 6 hours and felt a little bit grimmy.

Don't want to stick to suboxone for too long, don't want to get used to that. I'll use vitamin C for a couple of days and kratom to overcome the last days with minor uneasy feelings.

 

[drewbocop]

Ruin the whole thing? No, not in my experience. Though 15 years of reading Bluelight will lead you to believe otherwise.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Hi.

I have been using opiods for 3 months every day now so I am dependent on them. Started with oxycodone IR (at 40-60mg), then the dealer was out, he gave me oxycodone extended release, but I didn't like that at all, so he gave me pure 10mg/ml morphine ampules. I don't inject so I plug them, about 50mg (5ml) at a time. I noticed that morphine really triggers my breathing, it starts squeeking and I need to use an inhaler. Switched plugging heroin,which affects my breathing a little less but noticably more than oxy.

I decided to quit after new year by tapering for a few weeks, I started with methadone 10mg per day, but I noticed my heart rate dropped. I found reports of sinus bradycardia, so I quit that and switched back to heroin for a few days and yesterday I started suboxone 3mg, today 2mg.

I want to use during christmas and new year. Does this ruin a week long taper with suboxone? Is it better to just use heroin instead, maybe at a low dose?

Low dose heroin is quite an ironic concept. As soon as that 11/10 feeling hits you, you'll most likely have no desire to stay on the suboxone and want some high dose heroin.

It's also insanely difficult to determine if you will even be able to get high. If you use on the suboxone this might not be a possibility. If you would like to get off the suboxone just to feel heroin again, you might as well be honest with yourself and forego the treatment and tapers for a while (or save the suboxone meds for a better time period). I hope that this post does not come off as hostile or offensive, its just if using is still a priority for you--you might as well save the suboxone for a more optimistic sobriety run. I know that opiate addiction is such a hard thing to overcome, but shooting around in either direction (clean or using) never ends well for anyone.

For the record I'm not a saint and the oxy I've tried even a day after stopping suboxone might as well have just been thrown in the trash. Didn't feel a speck of the life destroying pills.

 

[angelomorgano]

Low dose heroin is quite an ironic concept. As soon as that 11/10 feeling hits you, you'll most likely have no desire to stay on the suboxone and want some high dose heroin.

It's also insanely difficult to determine if you will even be able to get high. If you use on the suboxone this might not be a possibility. If you would like to get off the suboxone just to feel heroin again, you might as well be honest with yourself and forego the treatment and tapers for a while (or save the suboxone meds for a better time period). I hope that this post does not come off as hostile or offensive, its just if using is still a priority for you--you might as well save the suboxone for a more optimistic sobriety run. I know that opiate addiction is such a hard thing to overcome, but shooting around in either direction (clean or using) never ends well for anyone.

For the record I'm not a saint and the oxy I've tried even a day after stopping suboxone might as well have just been thrown in the trash. Didn't feel a speck of the life destroying pills.

I used a low dose of suboxone, and the heroin hit me (about 50%) harder after 1 week of suboxone than before I started the suboxone with the same dose, probably because of the low dose suboxone and reduced tolerance.

After 2 days of constant plugging H I switched back to suboxone and tapered down in 8 days. Went quite well, I guess I am lucky this time :D

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I used a low dose of suboxone, and the heroin hit me (about 50%) harder after 1 week of suboxone than before I started the suboxone with the same dose, probably because of the low dose suboxone and reduced tolerance.

After 2 days of constant plugging H I switched back to suboxone and tapered down in 8 days. Went quite well, I guess I am lucky this time :D

Ah, ok!

I just wanted to state that the statistics for how strong suboxone is make no sense to me. Subs lower my opiate tolerance to everything else as if I was sober. I don't have much experience on heroin--just be careful not to push it because only you know where your tolerance is at a certain moment.

 

[angelomorgano]

Ah, ok!

I just wanted to state that the statistics for how strong suboxone is make no sense to me. Subs lower my opiate tolerance to everything else as if I was sober. I don't have much experience on heroin--just be careful not to push it because only you know where your tolerance is at a certain moment.

So if you would be on suboxone for 2 months, say at 0.5mg, and then quit for 2 days and start Heroin/Oxycodone again, your tolerance would be completelly reset to zero?

If that's the case, then it also does not make sense to me and suboxone is a miracle drug haha.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

So if you would be on suboxone for 2 months, say at 0.5mg, and then quit for 2 days and start Heroin/Oxycodone again, your tolerance would be completelly reset to zero?

If that's the case, then it also does not make sense to me and suboxone is a miracle drug haha.

Admittedly I played doctor with myself from my sub stash stored over the fun runs. I was on high-dose suboxone.. around 20 milligrams or so which is A LOT. I used subs for about two weeks in an attempt to escape a withdrawal that was horrible beyond words (fent). I guess I used that much because the subs felt good themselves to a degree, and I was still experiencing some sickness even on the subs.

As soon as the suboxone doses were over, I immediately switched back to kratom. I was pretty shocked that the euphoria was pretty prevalent especially from such a weak 'opiate.' I faced some minor residual withdrawals, but nothing worth complaining about. I just think that for a lot of folks depending on time period of suboxone use--and other factors etcetera suboxone is just much stronger and weaker depending on the person.

I would research how strong suboxone is, but many others can state the morphine equivalent of suboxone. It's pretty shocking how strong subs are despite how little withdrawal I had faced and how much my tolerance was lowered after being on only subs. Not sure if I'm unique.. but food for thought. I woudn't state that suboxone lowers your tolerance to zero, no. But depending on the person maybe, it could get close to zero. It also seems that the longer one is on suboxone the worse the withdrawals are from the subs themselves. I was on incredibly high doses, whereas some people withdraw hardcore from being on 4 milligrams of subs for months on end. As for how they will effect your tolerance I really can not state.

Regarding drugs, sometimes it's just best to gauge how you feel with the euphoria/buzz over trying to mathematically state 'how high will I get if...' lol.

 

[angelomorgano]

Admittedly I played doctor with myself from my sub stash stored over the fun runs. I was on high-dose suboxone.. around 20 milligrams or so which is A LOT. I used subs for about two weeks in an attempt to escape a withdrawal that was horrible beyond words (fent). I guess I used that much because the subs felt good themselves to a degree, and I was still experiencing some sickness even on the subs.

As soon as the suboxone doses were over, I immediately switched back to kratom. I was pretty shocked that the euphoria was pretty prevalent especially from such a weak 'opiate.' I faced some minor residual withdrawals, but nothing worth complaining about. I just think that for a lot of folks depending on time period of suboxone use--and other factors etcetera suboxone is just much stronger and weaker depending on the person.

I would research how strong suboxone is, but many others can state the morphine equivalent of suboxone. It's pretty shocking how strong subs are despite how little withdrawal I had faced and how much my tolerance was lowered after being on only subs. Not sure if I'm unique.. but food for thought. I woudn't state that suboxone lowers your tolerance to zero, no. But depending on the person maybe, it could get close to zero. It also seems that the longer one is on suboxone the worse the withdrawals are from the subs themselves. I was on incredibly high doses, whereas some people withdraw hardcore from being on 4 milligrams of subs for months on end. As for how they will effect your tolerance I really can not state.

Regarding drugs, sometimes it's just best to gauge how you feel with the euphoria/buzz over trying to mathematically state 'how high will I get if...' lol.

That is a huge ass dose lol. I also thought there was a ceiling effect (not sure if that also applies to the required dose to reduce withdrawals if you were using huge amounts of H, Fent, Oxy etc.). I've never used more thatn 4mg suboxone per day so far. I have 14 pills of 8mg left for future emergencies, I might order some more, just to be on the safe side.

I've done a suboxone taper before, it lasted 21 days and I still felt withdrawal afterwards. This time, I came from a 3 month oxy, heroin run and tapered in about 2 weeks and ended with vitamin C and some kratom (10g per day, spread over morning, afternoon and night), which resulted in almost no withdrawals, only some tiredness.

 

[Hezman94]

Yeah it does but u soon feel ssme sfter a day or two.
wholr point of tspering is not to use

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

That is a huge ass dose lol. I also thought there was a ceiling effect (not sure if that also applies to the required dose to reduce withdrawals if you were using huge amounts of H, Fent, Oxy etc.). I've never used more thatn 4mg suboxone per day so far. I have 14 pills of 8mg left for future emergencies, I might order some more, just to be on the safe side.

I've done a suboxone taper before, it lasted 21 days and I still felt withdrawal afterwards. This time, I came from a 3 month oxy, heroin run and tapered in about 2 weeks and ended with vitamin C and some kratom (10g per day, spread over morning, afternoon and night), which resulted in almost no withdrawals, only some tiredness.

The ceiling effect is true to a degree but not set in stone. Science doesn't always take into effect that everyone's body is so different. I definitely felt every sub strip and nicely if I say so myself.

That's why I think suboxone isn't entirely explored enough yet. We know so much about it--and yet why would someone like me not face withdrawals from suboxone itself despite intaking HUGE doses for a while? That's what I'm wondering.

Either way lol, I don't see anything wrong with heroin use on its own. It's just if you want to get high, whatever but you might as well get off the suboxone if heroin use becomes a daily habit again. I'd save the strips/pills or whatever for when you truly need them by that point. I know heroin feels awesome and I think even people who haven't touched drugs would be able to see how compelling it is for everyone across the board. However, suboxone does have a proper time and place. If I was sure-fire just wanting to get ultra high all the time it seems frivolous to be on suboxone by that point. Up to you.

Suboxone is a godsend for me for the withdrawals that are devastating (every second just SUCKS). I wouldn't use suboxone for oxycodone withdrawals because I know what to expect and I became good at managing them at the end of the day. Something like fent? Or godlike heroin (not my cup of tea though)? Those kinds of withdrawals that make one want to just NOT live anymore are what suboxone's net worth boils down to imo. Getting on suboxone for 20 milligrams of oxy is just going to in turn seem illogical. Some folks really do withdraw way too hard from subs themselves you know? Can be over kill.

 

[burn out]

Using once won't ruin the entire taper but it will rapidly erase progress. Like if you spend 10 days tapering and take a good dose of heroin after that, it will probably erase at least 3 days and if you take heroin a few more times it will erase the whole taper.

It's like if you're driving from New York to Chicago and you ask will turning around and driving in the opposite direction back toward New York ruin the whole trip? Well, not right away but very quickly...

 

[Squeaky]

The main problem with Suboxone and Kratom is how long they last in your body.
Everyone knows how long it takes them to go from high to withdrawals on their drug of choice. And the deeper the withdrawals are, the better the buzz when you get your next hit. Me for example, with oxy, the wd’s start around 12 hours after my last dose and last for a few days. If I don’t have ANYTHING for a week I can reset my tolerance back to something reasonable.
Suboxone and Kratom have an insane half-life and a very low ability to cause euphoria. You can’t tell but if I’m on Kratom for that week to reset my tolerance, that week looks more like a month. AND if I’m not aggressively cutting back on Kratom, my tolerance actually goes up.
There’s no magic. Anything that attaches to an opiate receptor will keep your tolerance from lowering. The longer your opiate receptors are ‘occupied’, the higher your tolerance. Tapering, Suboxone, Kratom, all work if your goal is to get to zero because you get to experience withdrawals in tiny pieces instead of all at once. But you can’t really expect a huge change after a short time on a taper. You have to get through the withdrawals, and if the plan is to do it in tiny pieces then you will have to do it for a really long time.
ALSO, be careful. A lot of overdoses occur when using after being clean for a while. We all do that thing where we remember how it used to take 6 pills to catch a buzz, so we take 8 because we don’t want to f this up and not get high. But tolerance is way down and it was only going to take 2 pills. An hour later you’re not breathing.

 

[drewbocop]

I've described it in the past but suboxone withdrawal was the worst for me. I'm one of those that switched to methadone after suboxone (and successfully got clean for a long time). Not clean anymore though, daily long-term kratom user. Happily.

I tapered down to 1mg, but I was much younger then and I struggled to keep my schedule. I ultimately jumped at 1mg with some days 2mg or so, and I went through 21 fucking days of hell with RLS and insomnia. And I feel like bupe is terrible for PAWS. I don't know, this is all completely subjective. Just my personal experience and it was a way worse withdrawal profile for me. I hear about people on 20 and 24mg and it just blows my mind. Jumping at 2 mg is far too high and will be quite a nightmare.

And I don't know if I was reading that correctly, but getting way higher on other opioids because you're on bupe? That was never my experience. I feel like when I'd use oxy or dope while on suboxone that it did jack shit. That's how it works. Even kratom is that way for me. If I'm on big doses of kratom and I snort a couple bags of dope, I literally won't really get any good effects out of it. Completely blunted.

 

[Squeaky]

I imagine in my mind that I have created scar tissue on my opioid receptors from too much Kratom usage. Now oxy has basically no effect even at 150mg at once.

 

[angelomorgano]

I have to say, after tapering down the suboxone in 8 days and then switching to vitamine c for 7 days, I didn't have withdrawals if I dosed correctly. I used kratom starting with 10-15g per day and quickly reduced it to 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, 1. But now I do start to feel withdrawals (after not touching sub for 3 weeks and no heroin/oxy for more than 1 month). I wonder if it's the suboxone withdrawals, or just the kratom dependency that took over. It's more like having no energy at all, and if I take 1g of kratom, i'm good for 2 hours. Then I just suffer through the day, take clonidine 0.05mg for a 4-6 hr sleep but wake up after that, groggy but unable to sleep.

The short duration of kratom makes it annoying to "taper". I know it sounds weird, but would 0.5mg suboxone for 2/3 days help to assist with completelly quitting, or just suffer through the days?

I do go for 5k runs on 1.5g kratom, and feel great afterwards for 7 hours, but then my sleep seems even more distorted.

I also have some naltrexone and if I could take that to speed things up in 1 day with bad withdrawals, I would take it, but that's probably not how it works. I'd probably suffer much longer

Anyway, I also have benoz's available. If anybody has any tips how to jump of 1g kratom with at least some energie to work, happy to hear