Does reward-inducing drugs change your habits/motivation for things

[mushroomdub]

I'm curious as to what extent (if any) does reward-producing drugs like methamphetamine do to a persons habit/motivation for erm activities I guess.

I'm just using methamphetamine here as an example but I assume it has similar effects to say dextroamphetamine or cocaine?

For instance if someone uses methamphetamine to clean their house regularly, would this make them more likely to clean their house in the future without the influence of a substance? As their brain-memory would have associated the two?
Could you argue that the methamphetamine has merely allowed them to 'realize' that cleaning a house is truly 'beneficial' for yourself and could have been accomplished just as well by seeing someone else clean their house?

What about long term use of say adder all for academical-learning/motivation-support, if someone were to stop a 5 year 'usage' would they later on be more motivated to learn something then a person who hasn't used methamphetamine for academical reasons?

Cheers

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

It might make them more likely to. On the other hand they might just never clean because they've learned to with meth all the time beforehand!

 

[Effuzion]

No one needs meth to make them realize that cleaning their house is a good thing. That's fucking crazy talk.

Anyway, with opiates I found it was the opposite. I had to re-learn everything when I came off of them. I had to re-learn how to motivate myself to do daily chores (not that I did them on opiates), how to socialize with people, and especially how to deal with emotions. Things I did while high I did not want to do while sober.

 

[RedRum OG]

I'd say if anything if you tried to clean or study or whatever sober it'd just bring back nasty memories/trigger cravings

That's just IME, more with speedballs, not purely stimulants though

 

[Jabberwocky]

No I don't think so. I think it's completely the opposite, in that in order to do that specific task in the future you will crave the drug to do so. You're no longer being rewarded by the drug from the activity therefore there is no motivation to do it without it. It's actually a very bad habit. I've found that with computer games - I used to love playing world of Warcraft (without drugs) then started using opiates and amphetamines while playing. I cannot play the game now unless I have those drugs in me as I feel it's an unrewarding experience now.

Possibly not the same - but songs I play from when I was on MDMA trigger some sort of endorphin/serotonin rush in me.

 

[lookmanolimbs]

Possibly not the same - but songs I play from when I was on MDMA
trigger some sort of endorphin/serotonin rush in me.

I know what you mean.

I'm no expert by any means but I would think artificially stimulating the mesolimbic system by substance use in order to 'reward' oneself would actually have the opposite effect while sober, and other responses in this thread seem to back that up.

 

[sekio]

Anyway, with opiates I found it was the opposite. I had to re-learn everything when I came off of them. I had to re-learn how to motivate myself to do daily chores (not that I did them on opiates), how to socialize with people, and especially how to deal with emotions. Things I did while high I did not want to do while sober.

This, x 1000

Given the number of meth heads who end up on the street... I don't think that using methamp will ever improve your life, if you use it recklessly.

 

[mushroomdub]

I've found that with computer games - I used to love playing world of Warcraft (without drugs) then started using opiates and amphetamines while playing. I cannot play the game now unless I have those drugs in me as I feel it's an unrewarding experience now.

Quite interesting in itself. I too stopped genuinely enjoying games / tv. There is a sort of guilty feeling about it for me, or a 'motivation' that I could rather go on the computer and do something more interesting/educational.

Back to the topic though, if it isn't truely 'beneficial' (long term wise) then why is adderal/ritilan prescribed for school students who 'lack motivation' (imo) or aka ADHD.

 

[lookmanolimbs]

^ Small doses improve concentration in the short term. I mean here at least prescription doses do have a noticeable but not speedlike effect on concentration. I can't say what the picture is like elsewhere. But recreational doses are comparatively pretty large compared to the GP's recommendation in my experience (eg 20mg dexedrine vs 150mg amp so4).

 

[Jakeperson]

Meth made me lose all motivation for anything and everything. There have been times where even in opiate withdrawal (while being a meth addict) that I took hours to get up and walk 3m to grab some bupe to make them go away because I just couldn't be fucked.

 

[Hammilton]

Something like ropinirole might have this effect.

 

[blight12]

No I don't think so. I think it's completely the opposite, in that in order to do that specific task in the future you will crave the drug to do so. You're no longer being rewarded by the drug from the activity therefore there is no motivation to do it without it. It's actually a very bad habit. I've found that with computer games - I used to love playing world of Warcraft (without drugs) then started using opiates and amphetamines while playing. I cannot play the game now unless I have those drugs in me as I feel it's an unrewarding experience now.

Possibly not the same - but songs I play from when I was on MDMA trigger some sort of endorphin/serotonin rush in me.

THIS is exactly why stims and especially meth is so addictive because you likely used it to do important things, chores, social, work etc and due to this you will now crave it almost constantly when doing these normal necessities sober. Dont do these things on stims!

 

[Temeraroius]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventral_tegmental_area - doing meth (or adderall, or caffeine, or any stim really) decreases your sensitivity to motivation in general. Stimulation of motivation circuits generally causes down-regulation of receptors in those circuits (see tolerance or homeostatic synaptic plasticity). Once you are no longer taking the drug, but still have fewer receptors, your endogenous neurotransmitters aren't quite enough to achieve the same level of motivation (while they were back when you had a lot of receptors, before drug tolerance) and thus you will be less motivated until your receptors are replenished over time (aka decreasing your tolerance).

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

this probably happens with bupropion too

 

[blackmetalvoid]

Meth made me lose all motivation for anything and everything. There have been times where even in opiate withdrawal (while being a meth addict) that I took hours to get up and walk 3m to grab some bupe to make them go away because I just couldn't be fucked.

So true, sounds like me - doing speed makes me want to just sit there in one spot, messing on computer or other activity , and not want to talk or do anything.

 

[Paracosm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventral_tegmental_area - doing meth (or adderall, or caffeine, or any stim really) decreases your sensitivity to motivation in general. Stimulation of motivation circuits generally causes down-regulation of receptors in those circuits (see tolerance or homeostatic synaptic plasticity). Once you are no longer taking the drug, but still have fewer receptors, your endogenous neurotransmitters aren't quite enough to achieve the same level of motivation (while they were back when you had a lot of receptors, before drug tolerance) and thus you will be less motivated until your receptors are replenished over time (aka decreasing your tolerance).

Which endogenous neurotransmitters? and also how are these shown to be positively correlated in respect to motivation and chemical signals?

My answer, to the original poster would be that everything has some form of reward and punishment, as abstract as it might sound or as literal as usually occurs (ranging from taking a drug, to thinking about drugs and to associated behaviours/personalities which take drugs)... Your habits are your own habits, but the question maybe related to whether rewards change your habits/motivation for things is that what exactly is an addiction... is it just a socially stigmatised habit perhaps? but than are these stigmatised ways of living/habits/motivation stigmatised for a reason... who knows... its interesting. Got me thinking anyhow.

 

[belfort]

i have found any stimulant eventually reduces my motivation for whatever activity..even opiates had the same effect, i would just sit around and zone out..stimulants are said to make you more social and outgoing and they did have this effect on me in the beginning but after a short while, i was the exact opposite, even more introverted and less motivated than i was before.

my drug use has really hurt my motivation overall...it got to be so bad that i have taken welbutrin(bupropion) to try and help but the positive effects poop out after a week or so..opiods like nubain/buprenorphine were super motivating for me when i took them, even moreso than stimulants..

i used ghb to socialize for years and when i ran out, i have very little desire to socialize..sure, i can maintain the conversation but its nowhere near as enjoyable as while on ghb..it is much more boring sober and i cant seem to 'trick' my brain into enjoying it without some drug flowing in me..

 

[puffj]

Back to the topic though, if it isn't truely 'beneficial' (long term wise) then why is adderal/ritilan prescribed for school students who 'lack motivation' (imo) or aka ADHD.

in fact adhd is not a lack of motivation. Don't say ridiculous things. People with adhd have been known to hyperfocus with extreme motivation on things that interest them. They just have trouble paying attention or staying concentrated without zoning out or day dreaming because they don't seem to have (and this has been proven) the same stength of dopaminergic and noreadrenic signaling. People diagnosed with ADHD (and I don't mean kids or teens who are just lazy and get a stim prescription and tell others they have adhd, I mean people who truely have been diagnosed and fail all the ADHD tests) have been shown to have increased DAT (dopamine transporters) activity in their brains and poor dopamine release from the pre-synapse as well as increased MAO and COMT concentrations. So less dopamine is released, the dopamine that is released is quickly taken up by the transporters where it is moved into the post-synapse and either inactivated or stored in vesicles and thus "inactivated" as it's only doing anything when it's in the synapse itself, and what little dopamine is left in the synapse to create a decent neurotransmission is metabolized much faster than it would be in the average person due to the excess of MAO and COMT enzymes waiting to bind and break down dopamine.

And to answer your question. It is "beneficial". It's "beneficial" to most everyone who takes it... it works on everyone even those who don't have ADHD.. but it brings those who don't have adhd to a higher level and those who do have adhd to a normal level of concentration and therefore applied intelligence. Long term stims aren't good period. They're prescribed because the majority of doctors who prescribe them don't seem to care that they're handing out C2 medications to everyone and anyone like candy (imagine if it was as easy to get an oxycodone prescription from your doctor as it is to get an adhd prescription) and because they're idiots. Especially the ones who have a patient come in and say "i have trouble focusing" and the doctors say "Here take this speed prescription!" within 5 minutes. Or even worse the retard doctors who actually allow the bad parents to tell them to give their 5 year old children amphetamines because "their kids are hyper". No shit your kid is hyper he's 5 that's normal. And that's scary. Giving a 5 year old brain 10, 20, 30mg of amphetamines every day? I can't believe it's acceptable practice. The doctors are ruining those childrens minds when they give 5 year olds speed to take every day. It's insane.

 

[puffj]

As to the main question in the thread. Duh of course they do. We evolved to engage in behaviors that triggered our reward circuit. In doing so we are reinforced to do whatever reward triggering action we did. The things that trigger the reward circuit are unexpected benefits, eating, sex, sleeping properly and on a normal cycle so we wake up feeling good and refreshed. All those are necessary for survival (or at least they were back when life was more cuthroat and our brains evolved) and so of course those behaviors needed to be reinforced. And so you were motivated to engage in those behaviors because whether you realized it or not you were getting rewarded and feeling good. Not so much the case any more but humans still are motivated to succeed, to accumulate wealth power and status, things that even back then meant you would mate a lot. And that motivation to be successful and better than everyone else for those reasons is what keeps us going.. of course it's great if you enjoy what you do but if you enjoy what you do you're likely good at it, do it well and again are probably getting rewarded by your brain because you know you're doing something and performing a task better than others. But stimulate that reward pathway the easy way with pills blow crank whatever, and all of a sudden motivation turns to taking the easiest route to feeling reward. And why shouldn't it? We evolved to always do things the easiest way possible. Bottom line, you get your intrinsic basic reward circuit triggered by drugs you won't need or feel motivated to go out and do the things that would otherwise trigger it.