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Does free will exist?

^ free will, is somehow beating physics (the fact that particles follow trajectories governed by mathematics that have nothing at all to do with our "will") and having some supernatural component to our decision making process

however, we live in a universe of particles following mathematical trajectories, and our information-network-computer-brain is no different. we cannot choose different paths in the sense that we ordinarily think of choosing, because "free will" itself is an emotion, a FEELING or sense that our will (what we compute to be desirable to attempt) is an entity free from the rest of the universe, separate, etc

in fact, we are totally unified with our surroundings/the universe in every way imaginable. our decisions are not ours to make, they just feel that way

(of course, in a sense, they actually are "ours" to make if you define "i/we" as the set of computational programs that have been set up to control the muscle activity of our bodies. but the point is that these decisions are being made by processes that aren't even conscious, that are in flow just like a flame or a spinning planet or any event in this universe)
 
one fact that seems sure however is that at quantum level, free "will" is common place
newtonian physics gives way to quantum physics at very small levels, but the particles are STILL following (now probabilistic) mathematical laws. there is no room for free will at the quantum level if there is no room at the newtonian level

if a particle is following its laws and these laws are QM-like rather than newtonian-like (aka "fuzzy" or "non-billiard-ball"), this randomness introduced into particle behavior does nothing that can give us free will. let's say a particle is moving about, there is an attractor-particle nearby pulling it, and in a newtonian sense it's supposed to move 0.0024 units towards the attractor at that period of time. introducing randomness/fuzziness just means that when the particle is moving, instead of moving 0.00024 towards the attractor, it will instead (when probability is introduced) move 0.0024 plus or minus, say, 0.0000736. this randomness added at each "timestep of the universe" does not allow for free will or anything supernatural (unless some force is influencing the outcomes... but then it'd be some physical phenomenon doing that, and still there'd be no supernatural events, so still things would all be following mathematical predictable laws (predictable when you see the whole picture), so still free will does not exist). the randomness added does, however, make it so that the system is "truly chaotic" to us at this time and so we can predict only a range where it may be (a probability cloud), not pin point its location with a precise nice prediction

QM fuzziness does nothing (when taking us out of newtonian billiards) for free will
 
Surely when the neural structure of my brain is functioning properly and weighing the various pros and cons of when to go get those groceries and then comes to a decision, that is my will acting freely?
yup that's true. your will is free, in contrast with if you were in prison, you could say your will is partly detained

but this only is true insofar as your "will" is a set of deterministic computational programs, and so your will is something as clockwork (or, fuzzy clockwork; see above post) as the workings of a flame from a lighter or the structure of a star or a photon zipping by
 
If we hold ourselves responsible for our choices and actions and the consequences
of those actions, then there is free will. If we feel guilt for our actions when we have hurt someone,
then we have free will. If we feel pride for having thoughts that we achieved our accomplishments, then there
is free will. If we feel a moral responsibility for our actions, then we have free will.

On the other hand, if people regard their actions of being beyond their control, they become irrisponsible, and stop caring for the result of their actions.

There are ofcourse the real victims that are afflicted-and have no control over what happens to them. This is where our life is predetermined or other forces are in action.

All our successes, failures and actions are governed by the decisions we take.Or else our
lives would be run totally by destiny or fate.However, there are also times when our life is predetermant and we have no saying in it.
 
How do we define free will?

When I decide i want to go on bluelight and make a post I do, when I want to sleep I do, when I want to eat I do, when I want to meditate I do is that not free will?
 
yup that's true. your will is free, in contrast with if you were in prison, you could say your will is partly detained

but this only is true insofar as your "will" is a set of deterministic computational programs, and so your will is something as clockwork (or, fuzzy clockwork; see above post) as the workings of a flame from a lighter or the structure of a star or a photon zipping by

I think that in this context it's the mind's ability to model itself that sets it apart from a lighter or the structure of a star or a photon. A lighter is just a lighter, a Star a star but a self aware mind can include a model of another self aware mind (i.e. you can think about what other people are thinking about) and can include a model of itself (i.e. you can think about your own thoughts in terms of past present and future). Also you can think about stars, atoms and lighters.

When i think about freewill i think in terms not of my ability to catch a ball thrown at me on the spur of the moment so much as my ability to deliberately model future scenarios, in terms of how it will affect me or my mind or will and then take action accordingly.

Given that the physics of reality in terms of determinism / quantum uncertainty are not exactly 100% worked out yet i'm going with the simpler option that the apparent effect that i am able to exert my freewill in this fashion is not an illusion. I can't help but go back to the old 'i think therefore i am' in that i can't imagine how it would be possible for something to think it had freewill unless it actually did.
 
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G-D sounds like an STD. That or some kind of High Explosive.

I think freewill, at the very least, is the ability to think about stuff you did in the past that might have been an unthinking reaction and modify your behaviour in the future. It's not always possibly to exert freewill instantaneously (famously with the experiment with the button and light where however hard you try to choose to press the button before the light lights up, the light always lights up first as if it knows you are going to press the button before you do) but you can certainly think about the light and the button and then choose to stop pressing it or leave the room or something else.

Another analogy might be when you are driving a car. You don't make conscious decisions about every single action you take (unless you just passed your test) but you make a conscious decision as to where you are going, which you can change depending on your knowledge of the traffic ahead, whilst at the same time driving 'on automatic' reactions naturally as you've taught yourself without thinking consciously about it too hard.

I think that at the very least our experience of past events allows us to exercise our freewill in regards to future events, if we think about it ahead of time. I don't think it is an illusion - i think the illusion is that freewill happens instantaneously magically inside your brain where your soul is all the time and without error, freewill is imperfect and requires effort and forethought.



That's kind of what i was getting at with my car driving example. I would disagree with the idea that freewill is usually absent - i think that when i'm driving my car (or whatever) my freewill is disconnected and i'm usually daydreaming or planning something unrelated to whatever the real world task i am performing with the illusion of freewill is. Maybe some people do just sit there and drive and think about nothing.

We have will but I question whether it is really free or if this will is really just controlled by even more underlying programming that is both inherent in our mental structure but also capable of adapting to our experiences/memories.

Could it be that our conscious decision of where to drive or what to do are just a different level of processing that takes more of a priority because they are constantly changing depending on the situation while the other actions(such as shifting the gears, stopping for red lights, obey traffic laws, etc) are more static and thus run on auto pilot with less flexible processing required for their function and thus they are put on stored pre-recorded responses that activate when prompted by the correct stimulus.

I think there is a very complicated process in which the brain decides what is allowed to drift into our conscious awareness and even more processing that determines how to react when it gets there. Our reasoning is very methodical and formulaic although at the same time, it is capable of adjusting it's functionality to adapt to new concepts and building new formulas for reasoning.


This is a false choice. We can be both organic machines driven by hunger, survival, reproduction etc. and also posses the ability of freewill. The initial unthinking reaction driven by hunger might be to steal the food, the conscious free will decision after thinking about it for a while might be to go hungry (either due to morals or the risk of getting caught - either way free will).

I think our reasoning is based largely on determining what is most beneficial to us and most likely to give us positive stimulation or to relieve negative stimulation. If we require food, and if we are desperate enough, most if not all would steal to relieve their suffering and to preserve themselves. Normally we would not do so because of the risk of getting caught but this is overridden when it is necessary. It is all in the deliberation between whether we reason that a given reaction will have a positive or negative outcome for us.

This gets complicated when you bring in a mechanism that we all possess: empathy and conscientiousness. We all have a base level of this (other than sociopaths) and it can be strongly reinforced by social conditioning. This is a further obstacle that causes us to react to the anguish of others as if we where experiencing it ourselves. This is a very practical evolutionary functioning which benefits the species as a whole by making us reluctant to harm each other. Our reasoning incorporates this and the potential backlash from the conscience into account as a negative stimulation when deliberating on a given action.


That was held to be true by scientists up until the discovery of quantum physics and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Quantum physics and quantum uncertainty may seem like obscure scientific theories but they are real and have implications in the real world. The reason the hard drive in your computer isn't bigger (in terms of gigabites) than it is is that there is a limit - once they get down to an electron or two for each bit there is a chance they'll start randomly flipping due to quantum instability and your data gets shuffled about. The reason hard drives keep getting bigger anyway is that the scientists/technologists keep finding loopholes and other ways round this fundamental limit (like storing the data parallel instead of in series or was it the other way round?)

That seems to be more about our own inability and limitations to measure phenomenon and doesn't really seem to disprove what I was saying. It should still be theoretically possible to simulate reality accurately it would just require a complete understanding of every property of reality down to the quantum level. True we would need to measure it to develop an understanding of how it functions and to come up with a equation to simulate a given physical law/property, but that is beside the point. Suppose we could? The point I am making is every action is the result of a precise mathematical process or trajectory(as qwe calls it) that is entirely non-random. IF we had a complete understanding of it's workings than we should be able to simulate it.

Another related sub question is: does randomness exist anywhere in reality?

I wish I had more of an understanding of quantum physics but unfortunately my math background isn't 100% solid and I have forgotten much of what I learned to it is hard for me to decipher some of the technical language used into a more practical idea that can be applied to my perception of reality.

Wow. Thats probably one of the longer posts I have ever made in a while. Sorry if I started to go off on a tangent there. I have a lot more to say and more points to respond to but I'm gonna do it one at a time.

I figured that this thread had been done before but I was really hoping for a chance to debate my own ideas on the subject with others. I will search for the other thread though and skim through to try to come up with some new points that haven't been discussed.
 
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^ By quantum "will" do you just mean quantum "randomness"? I see your point, but I don't think the gap between 'non-deterministic' and 'will' should be jumped so quickly...
yes, that's what i meant
i equal free will to the possibility of 100% randomly chosing between different options (maybe i should rethink that, but not now as i'm going to bed)

but the particles are STILL following (now probabilistic) mathematical laws. there is no room for free will at the quantum level if there is no room at the newtonian level
that's not how i understand quantum mechanics
of course, there are mathematical laws implied
but you cannot predict where a particle will be because it can randomly "choose" to be anywhere
an electron present in your body at that instant could very well be on the other side of the universe the next instant
(it doesn't have to travel there as it is already there in the form of its wave function)
although the statistics are so low that we never observe it

When I decide i want to go on bluelight and make a post I do, when I want to sleep I do, when I want to eat I do, when I want to meditate I do is that not free will?
this thread looks for a more basic notion of free will, as for instance, you decide to eat because you're hungry
you're hungry because your body needs food
your body needs food because of chemical reactions happening in your body
and so on

so in this example, the free will to eat is influenced by many factors and cannot be considered absolute free will

just as people think they have their own ideas, while most are extremelly influenced by their education and life experiences
 
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That seems to be more about our own inability and limitations to measure phenomenon and doesn't really seem to disprove what I was saying. It should still be theoretically possible to simulate reality accurately it would just require a complete understanding of every property of reality down to the quantum level. True we would need to measure it to develop an understanding of how it functions and to come up with a equation to simulate a given physical law/property, but that is beside the point. Suppose we could? The point I am making is every action is the result of a precise mathematical process or trajectory(as qwe calls it) that is entirely non-random. IF we had a complete understanding of it's workings than we should be able to simulate it.

No you are definitely mistaken on this point. Assuming heisenberg's uncertainty principle is not a load of total garbage the science of it is that there are certain variables which are fundamentally unknowable, it's not simply the case that we aren't yet capable enough to work out what they are.

The universe is not deterministic. Quantum randomness definitely exists. This doesn't in itself prove or disprove freewill but it definitely disproves the possibility of a perfect universe simulator.

It will never be theoretically possible to simulate reality accurately enough to produce a perfect model of the universe that accounts for exactly where everything is at all times etc.
 
that's not how i understand quantum mechanics
of course, there are mathematical laws implied
but you cannot predict where a particle will be because it can randomly "choose" to be anywhere
an electron present in your body at that instant could very well be on the other side of the universe the next instant
(it doesn't have to travel there as it is already there in the form of its wave function)
although the statistics are so low that we never observe it

QWE is right that quantum mechanics is still deterministic in a sense. Only now it's the probabilities rather than the measurements themselves that are deterministic. Given a certain system for the electron, if you made repeated measurements of it, the distribution of these measurement values would follow *very strict* laws and never deviate. The distributions, or the probabilities for individual measurements, would indeed be 'deterministic'. (Note the quotes, since this isn't the classical kind of determinism but a probabilistic one.) For example, the result of a flipped coin is essentially random, but there's a strict 'deterministic' quality to the 50% chance of getting a tail.

That said, I don't necessarily agree with qwe's statement that there's no room for free will. I don't think a statement like that can be made about free will yet, largely because of the complexity of the brain. Most confirmations of the strict mathematical laws involved in qm are made in enormously simplified systems (e.g. 1 electron, 1 proton system). Nothing even close to the complexity of the brain, and especially the brain itself, is fully understood by people, so I think it's hubristic to make declarative statements about what our minds can't do.

edit: I wholeheartedly agree with the people talking about the need to define free will tho. There's a few definitions going on in this thread even.
 
A lighter is just a lighter, a Star a star but a self aware mind can include a model of another self aware mind (i.e. you can think about what other people are thinking about) and can include a model of itself (i.e. you can think about your own thoughts in terms of past present and future). Also you can think about stars, atoms and lighters.
my PC can model and simulate stars, atoms, lighters, and you. eventually we'll have the software to let my PC convince you it's a human
 
This might be a stupid question, but could someone tell me what it will change about our existence (or anything) if the answer is found?
 
my PC can model and simulate stars, atoms, lighters, and you.

The feedback loop isn't enough in and of itself to create free will or self awareness; many of the other complicated bits of the brain that do 'stuff' are likely to be necessary as well. Loads of systems contain feedback loops but no others (we know of) have the complexity and other requirements to achieve self awareness and free will that the human brain seems to have.

I would argue that your PC doesn't simulate stars etc. for itself, you use the PC to perform these tasks yourself. If not you personally then the people that designed and built and programmed the machine.

But i would agree that if you had a sufficiently advanced computer / computer program that was both aware and aware that it was aware then things would get interesting. Maybe it would be self aware. Maybe it would have free will. Maybe it would destroy mankind and take over the... (nah).

If computers ever start doing stuff and running simulation of themselves and other PCs they are interested in and stars and stuff without being programmed for it or told to do it, then at that point i think we may have achieved real machine inteligence.

eventually we'll have the software to let my PC convince you it's a human

Personally i think the turing test is a bit like the IQ test - useful but ultimately pretty arbitrary. You could be measuring the ability of one set of humans to fool another set with a sufficiently complicated program as much as measuring actual machine inteligence. Like when Kasparov lost to deep blue; he didn't lose because deep blue was itself more inteligent that him so much as that the team of programmers he was facing were collectively more inteligent than him when aided by a supercomputer.
 
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quantum mechanics is still deterministic in a sense. Only now it's the probabilities rather than the measurements themselves that are deterministic
i don't see this as contradictory to "randomness"

as a parallel, if you were playing a game in which you choose randomly between zeros and ones.
each answer may be totally random. thus expressing your free will (according to my definition, which is related to "randomness"), even though one could point out that you'll only choose one or zero, and never three or another number

free will has its place within the restriction of some parameters too



or let's say that you have a glass of water on your left and one on your right with no reason to choose one over the other

you have free will to choose which one you want to drink first
even though we're sure that by tomorrow you'll have drunk both because you were thirsty, free will will have played its role until then

that the final result of a process is certain does not prevent free will from influencing how the process unfolds
 
This might be a stupid question, but could someone tell me what it will change about our existence (or anything) if the answer is found?
we're just trying to fill up some time while waiting for death
 
This might be a stupid question, but could someone tell me what it will change about our existence (or anything) if the answer is found?

I think it's an interesting question.

If we have free will, discovering for sure that we have it might encourage more people to take control of their lives and exercise their will.

If we don't have free will, discovering for sure would be a bit of a headfuck. What would you do? Why? I think some people wouldn't think about it and carry on as normal, some go a bit insane, and others... i just don't know.
 
^ whether we have free will or not, once we find out, we won't feel any different. so it makes no difference, except in the sense of trying to understand the very fundamentals of consciousness, mind, and reality
 
^ whether we have free will or not, once we find out, we won't feel any different.

How do you figure that? Even if we don't have freewill discovering this could be a serious influence that makes some people think or act in new ways.

Discovering we definitely did or didn't have freewill would be a little bit to my mind like discovering there definitely is or isn't alien life on other planets; it wouldn't directly affect us (assuming no visitations) but the knowledge would still have influence over people.
 
we agree, that's actually what i meant

Ah fair enough.

It was when you said;

we won't feel any different.

that i wasn't sure; i'd have thought something like this is pretty much only going to affect how we feel, and then if anything else happens it will be because how we feel is an important factor in how people behave (and thus it would influence people).

Although i'm still not sure exactly what would happen to people if we discovered that free will didn't exist. I'm not sure it would be pleasant though.
 
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