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Does believing in Evolution say a lot about you

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Whales are piss poor example for evolution
why?
We have wales today. Them sons of guns are the king of the ocean.
Did you know they kill great whites? They flip em over and sedate them and eat their liver .
And were told great white hasn't changed because it is an efficient killing machine with no predator.
Wouldnt a whale be an even better killing machine than a shark?
What caused the whales to change that changed then?
TELL me that. Where is the stress ?
Why didnt it effect other whales?
Hard to isolate a whale in the ocean ya know.
 
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What did Einstein want to know?

Also, do you believe all living things are immutable? And what exactly is your stance on punctuated equilibrium as I was having a hard time discerning this.
 
Sorry,
The Einstein quote was a joke for FOREVERAFTER. Substitute his name for Einstein.

Not immutable. We have information that we express sexually.
Information can be lost that could conceive a change. But once it is gone it is gone.
You could lose your arms but never gain them back. In respect to a miscopied gene.
Things in universe loose order. We get old and die. Death is one of best examples of second law of thermodynamics.
If so easy to overcome try taking a dead plant and putting in sun.
You could wait a billion years it ain't going to grow back.

Punctuated equilibrium is a flat out joke.
But evolution has to have it because of living fossils. You cant have millions of years with no change. Destroys theory.
I know pictures are pretty and when you dive into them with imigination, evolution seems plausible. But like I said under close scrutiny it has more holes than a sponge.
 
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I think you misunderstand PE. It only deals with species in long term stasis with relatively rare but geologically quick changes. It explains why species appear out of nowhere in the fossil record. But it does not say that higher levels of taxa (reptile to bird, amphibian to reptile etc) are not gradually evolving.

Oh and I feel really dumb for missing the Einstein thing. :) I literally thought you meant AE.
 
You cant have millions of years with no change. Destroys theory.

Well, yes you can. You seem kind of unclear on what the theory of evolution actually claims. And you keep on coming back to punctuated equilibrium like it's some sort of trump card - it's really not.

wiki said:
Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.

That's it. That's all that it claims. That inherited characteristics of biological populations change over an indefinite period of time and an indefinite number of generations.

Nowhere in the theory of evolution is there a limit to how fast or slow that changes are made. All it is, is an explanation for how species diversify. There is absolutely no restriction saying "all species must change X base pair mutations/generation". There is no claim that the changes are either big or small, either.

The other thing to remember, is evolution has no major "intent". So although it may seem stupid that the descendents of one species were land bearing and further down the generational tree they went back to aquatic species, all that says is that there was enough of a suitable climate that reproduction continued and for whatever reason there was a suitable niche to be colonized by things living in the water. Maybe it provided some advantage. Maybe all it did was allow life to colonize a niche where there was none before. Maybe it brought new problems to the species but it struggled through anyway. And it is absolutely incorrect to say the species "decides to mutate" or anything like that, it just happens.

It's also handy to remember that if you are considering living animals, we are looking at the "latest and greatest", all the time. Every animal that lives today is at the very top of its evolutionary tree. So really, you won't find any evidence that whales turned into hippos. What you will see, is a progression of proto-whales and proto-hippos as you move backwards in time, until the point where the two genetic lines diverged - the most recent common ancestor - probably some sort of rather large semi-aquatic beast. So it is in fact pretty absurd to assume that horses suddenly shrank in size, grew claws and started saying "woof" and then you get dogs, because that's not what happened at all.

Also, strictly speaking, the theory of evolution doesn't even put forward an explanation for the origin of life, that's a separate issue entirely.

You also discard the possibility (also highly likely) that there are internal changes occurring that don't manifest themselves in outward phenotype presentations. To requote an earlier example, there are beetles (and dogs) which are morphologically similar but genetically different enough to not produce viable offspring. Or, imagine an animal evolves proteins that more effectively remove lactic acid from the muscles, meaning they can exert energy more effectively. Or more effective tumour suppressing genes. Or resistance to say, smallpox. That wouldn't necessarily be obvious.

Case in point, some humans are born with an inborn resistance to the HIV and smallpox virus. This is due to a single DNA base getting flipped. The reason it's prevalent is because it conferred an advantage, the humans with that mutation were less likely to die of smallpox infections in the days before vaccination. That's a change you can't necessarily see, but still poses a visible survival advantage.

Oh, and for a guy who thinks he has it all figured out, I don't think you've put forward a better argument at all for how to explain the divergence of species when you separate them into geological niches, for instance. All I hear is a broken record, or perhaps a trained parrot, saying "I didn't evolve from no whale! Punctuated equilibrium! Punctuated equilibrium! The fossil record is a lie! Punctuated equilibrium! Whales growing legs and ten foot dicks! Punctuated equilibrium!"

By the way most whales eat stuff like krill and small fish... at least the ones I know of. Not very menacing killers.
 
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Ok hold up guys,

I know I cant disprove evolutionary status.
If I could, role out the red carpet and give me my nobel prize. Cause without it evolution is what you would call your great, great , great, grand dad-----DEAD

I fully understand PE

Im SAYING it is ludacris to say you need millions and millions of invisible mutations for evolution to work but you can have organisms that just screech to a halt for millions and millions and millions and millions and millions etc of years and think it is possible it will some how kick back in today.
Yes I cant disprove it.
But I also cant prove there arnt an army of little invisible people that live in my arse.

Does this not even faze you?

PS
A whale unfortunately killed a girl at sea world in Florida. Yeah, killer whales aren't killers
 
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A whale unfortunately killed a girl at sea world in Florida. Yeah, killer whales aren't killers

If you enslave a massive beautiful intelligent animal that weighs 20,000 pounds in a confined space and force it to do tricks for food, what do you expect? Whales are relatively gentle creatures, but we all have our limits.

Yes I cant disprove it.

So, stop trying.
 
Maybe you missed the point I had in there, organisms that seemingly are phenotypically stable are not necessarily genetically stable. Just 'cause there's no visible changes in body plan over the generations, doesn't mean there's not changes occurring.

Does this not even faze you?

I try not to worry about it. It is what it is; mutations in DNA are still going to happen whether or not I care about it. I personally see no reason why nature can't be complex and diverse. I'm sure not the one running the show.

Also, horses have killed people too, are they evil killers? ;) How about deer that cause road accidents?
 
Invisible hidden changes for multi million years?

Your so desperate to believe I actually believe you would accept magic as an explanation.

Im not calling you dumb, just too a little bit too smart for your own good.

Ps are killer whales called killers cause they kill people or cause they kill other whales :)
 
Rodents eat their young. Nature is nature. I'm not sure what your point is.

Your so desperate to believe I actually believe you would accept magic as an explanation.

Im not calling you dumb, just too a little bit too smart for your own good.

Sekio has treated you with far more respect than you deserve.

Calling him/her desperate and ignorant is uncalled for.

The only one who consistently comes across as desperate in this thread is you.
 
She has at times, others not so much.

I apologize for the sarcasm.
It was back handed as I said I didnt think sekio was dumb.

I just mean logically it makes sense to concede point and say that the fossils that are basically identical like dragon fly are probably not millions of years old.
But I know this opens up a Pandora's box for evolution.
Im just being tough for your own good.
Ps
I dont mean any of this to be personal.
I dont know u.
If I did, believing or not believing in evo or say my faith ( not that their mutually exclusive) would absolutley with out a doubt not keep someone from being my friend.
I bust the chops of my own family. Thick skin is
a good quality to have

Carry on
 
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I'll clarify
I accept drawings if it is depiction of fossil found
not imaginary pics of what a "supposed" transitional fossil is
Even so, showing a lager horse head and a smaller horse head and saying the smaller gave way to the larger cause its smaller doesn't make it so
Show fossils that show the progression of the leg bones angle and how the hip changed
something like that
not a pic of a monkey, an ape, a man and sayin
Presto evolution

Again dont dodge this one,
Specifically show fossils above the cambrian layer remotely resembling fossils IN the cambrian fossil layer
300 million years of evolution before cambrian explosion should have fossils
You think?
Also again,
DO YOU SUBSCRIBE TO PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM?

Of course they're drawings of the fossils.. they're not just someones guess of what existed.. those species exist and are documented in the fossil records..

The evolution of the horses legs / toes were in the picture.. as well as the date the species lives.. you can follow, step by step, the evolution of the horse. If you want to actually learn something why not type in the names of each of the species and look at the fossils found etc.. You do know how to internet, don't you?

The evidence as found in the fossil record exists and in the age of the internet, is easily accessible.

How about, instead of arguing about something you know nothing about, you educate yourself..

Or do you just like the attention?

If you'd bothered reading through my earlier links..

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC300.html

Are you going to read it and ignore it or are you going to just ignore it?

Here's the first point of debunking your claim (there's many more than 1)

The Cambrian explosion was the seemingly sudden appearance of a variety of complex animals about 540 million years ago (Mya), but it was not the origin of complex life. Evidence of multicellular life from about 590 and 560 Mya appears in the Doushantuo Formation in China (Chen et al. 2000, 2004), and diverse fossil forms occurred before 555 Mya (Martin et al. 2000). (The Cambrian began 543 Mya., and the Cambrian explosion is considered by many to start with the first trilobites, about 530 Mya.) Testate amoebae are known from about 750 Mya (Porter and Knoll 2000). There are tracelike fossils more than 1,200 Mya in the Stirling Range Formation of Australia (Rasmussen et al. 2002). Eukaryotes (which have relatively complex cells) may have arisen 2,700 Mya, according to fossil chemical evidence (Brocks et al. 1999). Stromatolites show evidence of microbial life 3,430 Mya (Allwood et al. 2006). Fossil microorganisms may have been found from 3,465 Mya (Schopf 1993). There is isotopic evidence of sulfur-reducing bacteria from 3,470 Mya (Shen et al. 2001) and possible evidence of microbial etching of volcanic glass from 3,480 Mya (Furnes et al. 2004).

Im SAYING it is ludacris to say you need millions and millions of invisible mutations for evolution to work but you can have organisms that just screech to a halt for millions and millions and millions and millions and millions etc of years and think it is possible it will some how kick back in today.

Two points coming from nothing but ignorance.

Not only are "living fossils" genetically different to species that looked similar, there is no reason why evolution MUST HAVE caused a genetic mutation significant enough to allow it to survive when others did not..

I'm willing to bet their are hundreds, thousands, millions of genetic mutations found in some animals of some species that we just don't know about.. genetic mutations found in species do not necessarily exist in every animal of that species.. Not every person has the same colour eyes, the same skin tone, the immunity to HIV and the ability to see millions of colours http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy

If you can accept that these mutations happened, why is so hard to grasp that sometimes a mutation (such of a photosensitive cell emerging) will give the creature a much higher chance of surviving and reproducing, each of it's offspring having that advantage, each having a higher chance of reproducing, each of their offspring passing on the trait?

Evolution doesn't mean a mutation will kill of every other one of the species without it (as you seem to think).. Sometimes (most times) an evolutionary trait will branch off, leaving both those with it and those without.. Your question about the layers above the cambrian showing fossils found in it doesn't suggest that evolution stopped.. It doesn't have to go A to B to C.. It can go A to A and B to A and B and C to A and A1 and B and C (A1 branching from A but not killing off A, having no mutations that B had, while C branched off from B, again, not killing off B)..

Previous transitional stages will sometimes eventually be killed off for a number of reasons, like competing for food and resources, or because the latter form was better at evading predators..

Going back to the new species of finch we observed happen.. the new finch could crack open and eat nuts AND be able to drink nectar from flowers (thanks to it's beak).. The "parents" can only do either or.. They're all still alive because there is enough resources, however, if there was a food shortage of both nuts and flowers, the new finch will be able to get enough food by using both, while it's "parents" will start starving off where they can only eat half of what the new one can.

Capiche?
 
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i believe in a creator. Im not a religious person but I think their is something beyond our understanding that is behind everything at work. I believe that there can be a creator that starts the process of things evolving. I dont believe it was a snap of the fingers and out came man but I do think the systems and cycles of the world fit together too well just by chance. Ill go with the evolution of things and i think their is something guiding those things to happen. All the cycles of nature just seem to perfect to be a thing that just happens.

Even if we find out how every living creature developed into what it is today, i still think it was directed that way by a force that we will never be able to figure out. Its designed that way.
 
A long post and a link to talk origion ( evolution apology) doesn't change the situation
A premise of because we find organisms such as worms ( multicellular organisms)
above Cambrian layer explains why we find an explosion of complex
creatures in the Cambrian strata?
Wouldnt you expect to find complex creatures above it as well
300 to 500 Ma is a long as dam time
there should be countless complex creatures fossils proceeding Cambrian layer.
or hell at least ONE COMPLEX creature like its future descendents.
Vertebrates and invertebrates are two whole different ballgames you THINK?
Why do you think they nicked named it an explosion? Cause it was a shock to see that many complex creatures seemingly coming out of no where

IF you accept PHYSISCAL changes that had to happen unseen for millions of years with absolutley zero proof, and I mean zero proof, im sure you will accept NO PHYSICAL change with organism such as dragon fly that shows NO PHYSICAL change for millions of years.
I guess you expect to have it both ways.

To use your words, you are "BETTING' there are UNSEEN genetic mutations in unchanged millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions etc year old fossils such as dragon fly.

AND your betting the FARM buddy.
Thats not science
capiche?
Why do u think they came up with the idea of puntuated equilibrium?
To try to explain the contradiction of the EVIDENCE we CAN observe

Its nothing but apologetics.

And I gave a link that has the bullshit horse diagram from 1800's
I cant read it for you.
I will post the link again.
Are you guilty of doing what you are accusing me of?
 
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Methamaniac - with no disrespect meant, merely another outside perspective offered - pretty much every question about evolution you've had has been answered, and with saint like amounts of patience to boot.

Of course there are still questions within the theory of evolution that need answering - no one has pretended there isn't, but the current lack of an answer in no way destroys the credibility of evolutionary theory.

Personally I think there is more to play than mere random mutation and natural selection. I've always liked Rupert Sheldrake's idea of Morphic resonance
 
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