Does believing in Evolution say a lot about you

[ForEverAfter]

If you're not familiar with the concept of "an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters" it was derived from a theory proposed in Émile Borel's 1913 article "Mécanique Statistique et Irréversibilité" (translation: "Statistical Mechanics and Irreversibility"), which was published in his book "Le Hasard" (translation: "Chance") in 1914.

If you're suggesting that I'm an idiot, what you're really suggesting is that Borel is an idiot. Which is funny, considering his contributions to mathematics.

Like you stated and I have said I need not replace theory for it to be false.

No, you don't need to come up with a workable theory. You aren't capable of that, and neither am I.

What I'm asking you is (and I'm not attacking you):
What do you think happened, in simple terms?

Were humans around during the Jurassic period, alongside dinosaurs?
If not, where did we come from?

Your argument against the (non-theistic) Big Bang theory is that everything came from nothing.
Yet, without evolution, man came from nothing. Unless I'm missing something.

To be more concise:
1. Is the human species as old as the universe?
2. Is the human species as old as the sun?
3. Is the human species as old as Earth?
4. Is the human species as old as dinosaurs?
5. If your answer is no, to any of those questions, where do you think we came from?
6. Does God keep creating life, all the time?
7. If so, are there any recent examples that you can cite of new species appearing from nothing?

 

[methamaniac]

Ok, these probably ain't going to be short answers you are asking for and it some of my views may or may not be scientific.

But I freely admit I can not not explain creation as I wasnt there when it went down
Let my excedrin kick in and ill do my best to answer-----
My team scored 21 points fourth quadrter,14 of which where in less than minute and fifty seconds , followed by an overtime win
Roller coaster contributed to headache

On monkey secretaries:
You ain't got infinite number of monkeys
to work with.
You got finite number of monkeys
and to boot you got a spell checker working against them.
Edit:
And no I do not actually think you are dumb

 

[ForEverAfter]

I don't think you're unintelligent either, just a little misguided.
I apologize for resorting to name calling earlier in the thread.

On monkey secretaries:
You ain't got infinite number of monkeys
to work with.
You got finite number of monkeys
and to boot you got a spell checker working against them.

The infinite monkey concept is an illustration to simplify relatively complex mathematics for the layman. Typewriters don't have spell checkers.

 

[methamaniac]

First, let me say I look at the bible as a historical account as well as a creation account.

Humans as old as universe?
I wouldn't think so. The light from stars reaching us and Doppler effect would kinda not support that
Couldnt really determine exact age
Sun? Could easily argue it is young
Stars heat up as they get older, and brighter.
( see faint sun paradox)
Earth could be as old as universe or younger
there are arguement for both
certainly i would think material is old as universe

Here is where I go into complete theory

I imagine earth as a breath taking paradise before the fall of man.
A garden if you will. Says in bible God created seeds not plants first. Like a Gardner he planted those seeds ( ever how u imagine it) and plants formed producing fruits according to there kind.
would think this would take more than day as fruit trees take time to yield fruit. BUT hey , he is God, could easily speed it up.
Dont say how old man is , just says he made him from dust, how this happened certainly mkre complicated if you look at scientifically , but maybe not Spence he can speak things into existence. HOW that works not sure.
The reason I dont neccessarily have to accept literal day is the day is like a thousand year quote. As well as it just honestly doesn't say how old the earth is. And only the author knows what he meant by original Hebrew word for day.
When eve popped on scene Adam said " at last"
Eluding to fact he had waited a while and was looking forward to companion. But who knows how long this was.
To note:
Man just seems to pop up less than ten thousand years ago.
Also genealogies in bible help , but many place in bible doesn't go directly father son, sometimes substituting grandfather or great grandfather for father, to show lineage.
Dinosaurs? Obvi i dont think millions of years old. We have found dinosaur flesh and blood with DNA . DNA half live was proven to be 512 years do the math.
Even if preserved it is going to break down.
Couldnt put exact date, could have had some roam earth before flood.
Flood could explain cambrian explosion.
But could support the idea the creatures could have lived for a time before. Hard to pinpoint years.
Doesnt necessarily help either for sure one way or other.
God creating life still? In terms of evo?
No, i feel he has set his programmed plan in motion . He is always in the now,
time becoming his point of view, so I will not speak for him.
Creating new species out of no wbere now, no
Allowed for diversity within program , yes

Sorry I know these are short answers on large questions.
Another thing to note, is that the world seems to be hologram like. Easy to imagine how u create things then.
And explain why particles on quantum level seem to appear where they need to be at exact time they need to/ observed.

Ps.
Some electric typewriters do have spell check

 

[ForEverAfter]

Earth could be as old as universe or younger
there are arguement for both

There are no credible scientific arguments for the Earth being as old as the universe.
The Earth may, however, end up being the same age as this thread.

i would think material is old as universe

Clarify this.

only the author knows what he meant by original Hebrew word for day

Agreed. The word has been mistranslated, like a lot of things in the Bible. The original Hebrew word can also mean "era", which - according to linguistic anthropology - remains undefined.

So, just to clarify, you're basically a YEC who thinks that the word day in the Book of Genesis was mistranslated? What I mean by that is: You believe, literally, in the OT? All of it, not just Genesis?

It's a pretty incomplete historical account (The Bible), isn't it? I mean, what about dinosaurs?

Dinosaurs? Obvi i dont think millions of years old. We have found dinosaur flesh and blood with DNA . DNA half live was proven to be 512 years do the math.

Please do the math, for me. I'd like to know how old you believe they are. (Roughly.) I'm not sure what it's obvious that you don't think they're millions of years old.

Dont say how old man is , just says he made him from dust, how this happened certainly mkre complicated if you look at scientifically

Science can explain this. It is a process that happens over time. All matter an energy in the universe is recycled.

When eve popped on scene Adam said " at last"
Eluding to fact he had waited a while and was looking forward to companion.

Why would God, in all his wisdom, make such a mistake?

That is: what would the purpose be in creating a single gender that is incapable of reproduction and therefore doomed to die alone?

For what it's worth, here is my interpretation of this part of the Bible is: the first "man" (called Adam in the story) to emerge from the animal species consumed a drug [probably Amanita Muscaria] that heightened his consciousness. He was then alone, outside of the rest of his "former" species. A woman (Eve) then followed. This was the beginning of human consciousness.

God creating life still? In terms of evo?
No, i feel he has set his programmed plan in motion

Okay, so when did the plan end? You say that there was life before man, so am I to understand that it was "a work in progress" up to that point? God, in other words, created life - over a period of time - then stopped.

Creating new species out of no wbere now, no

Isn't "out of dust" (as you interpret it) out of nowhere? Are you saying he did create man out of nowhere, then he stopped?

Another thing to note, is that the world seems to be hologram like.

The hologram concept is similar to the infinite monkeys. It's trying to bridge the gap of understanding by reducing something extremely complex into an illustration with common reference points. The Earth is not hologramatic.

Some electric typewriters do have spell check

You got me, there.

 

[rickolasnice]

=
Wouldnt you expect to find complex creatures above it as well

We do.

300 to 500 Ma is a long as dam time

Exactly.

there should be countless complex creatures fossils proceeding Cambrian layer.
or hell at least ONE COMPLEX creature like its future descendents.

There are.

Why do you think they nicked named it an explosion? Cause it was a shock to see that many complex creatures seemingly coming out of no where

I take you didn't read the link, again.

IF you accept PHYSISCAL changes that had to happen unseen for millions of years with absolutley zero proof, and I mean zero proof, im sure you will accept NO PHYSICAL change with organism such as dragon fly that shows NO PHYSICAL change for millions of years.
I guess you expect to have it both ways.

Are you saying there's zero proof of that some species remained seemingly physically unchanged.. No wait.. i don't.. what?

To use your words, you are "BETTING' there are UNSEEN genetic mutations in unchanged millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions etc year old fossils such as dragon fly.

No I didn't.. We know that a lot of species had different DNA, regardless of their appearance.

If you read my post and understood it, I was willing to bet something completely unrelated.

Why do u think they came up with the idea of puntuated equilibrium?

Because it makes sense?

To try to explain the contradiction of the EVIDENCE we CAN observe

What contradictions are these?

Are you finally admitted that evolution has been observed? Remember the Finches?

And I gave a link that has the bullshit horse diagram from 1800's
I cant read it for you.
I will post the link again.
Are you guilty of doing what you are accusing me of?

I apologise, I didn't see it.. I'll check it out now.

And finally (for now)

Where's your source for the cambrian layer crap you keep talking about? Let me guess.. answers in genesis?

http://untemperedintellect.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/creationists-and-cambrian-explosion.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion

And if you think species alive today are a perfect design, wouldn't everything be, well, the same? There'd be one perfect camouflage, everything will be able to out run their predators while the predators, simultaneously, would have to be fast enough to catch it.

Explain to me vestigial genes or no fuck it.. explain to me while whales have the remnants of hind limbs? Why do we have the plica semilunaris? Why does the sun cause cancer? Why can our bones break?

 

[ForEverAfter]

You two have been going round in circles for ages with the Cambrian shit. It's not getting anywhere.

I felt like we were making some progress.

Ignore rick, meth. Just respond to me.

1. How long (ballpark) do you believe dinosaurs have been around?
2. How old (ballpark) do you believe the universe is?
3. Do you believe, literally, in the Old Testament? (All of it, not just Genesis?)
3a. If so: it's a pretty incomplete historical account, isn't it? I mean, what about dinosaurs?
4. God's plan ended when he made man, correct?
4a. If so: did it begin with the Big Bang?
4b. If it began with the Big Bang, and ended when man was created, how long (ballpark) do you believe the plan was? Has it not, in other words, spanned most of time and ended relatively recently?

Note: Please don't cop out by saying you "can't speak for God", because I'm not asking you to. I'm asking you what you believe. If you don't believe the dinosaurs were around millions of years ago, you must have some conception of a timeframe.

 

[rickolasnice]

You two have been going round in circles for ages with the Cambrian shit. It's not getting anywhere.

I felt like we were making some progress.

Ignore rick, meth. Just respond to me.

How rude.

First the call to ignore me, then the order to respond to you? Gtfo

Progress towards what?

 

[ForEverAfter]

It wasn't an order. It was a plea.

Progress towards what?

Bear with me.

 

[Dystopia35]

As much shit I talk I have been reading this thread because it is very interesting. I have learned quite a bit on the scientific side of things. However, I just read meth use the bible as an actual fucking time line for life. As if it were a reliable source. This us where being dillusional kicks in people. We were created from dust? Oh I know it may not all be literal. However its more of a reason to not use it as a timeline for the beginning of the human race. It is simply too open to interpretation.

 

[rickolasnice]

It wasn't an order. It was a plea.



Bear with me.

Fair play.. I'll back down..

Good luck

As much shit I talk I have been reading this thread because it is very interesting. I have learned quite a bit on the scientific side of things.

This was actually most of the reason I've continued.. Besides learning / keeping up to date with information myself.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Being rude to a man who interprets the Bible literally and has the GUTS to say so on a public spirituality (not science) forum, even though he knows that he is exposing himself as an "easy target" and that his perspective is not a popular one, does nothing but inflate your ego. After being pummelled repeatedly, not to mention blatantly insulted by a bunch of patronizing assholes (myself included), meth has maintained his composure and been more courteous than his average combatant. Doesn't say much for your side of the argument, does it? I've grown to respect him and I'd like to hear what he has to say.

From a purely practical standpoint: if you're interested in "converting" people from religion to science (that is not my prerogative, since I belong to both sides), calling them delusional is not the way to do it; in other words, you catch more flies with honey.

It's no wonder he was hesitant to "out" himself as a literal interpreter of the Bible.

Don't force people into the shadows.

 

[rickolasnice]

I wasn't being rude because he takes the bible literally.. i was being rude because of he was repeatedly ignoring what others were saying for his benefit.

And although he's been a lot more courteous recently, it didn't start that way.. although i may not have done in actuality, i tried to follow his suit.. reading his replies to me, though, he is still having a sly dig..

 

[Dystopia35]

Like I said before I am not trying to convert anyone. Either way converting someone won't happen on a message board. Just because I am being critical does not mean I am being rude. Inflating my ego? Seriously? You know nothing about me so not even responding to that. However as I said before people should not ignore your inner logic.
I use the word dillusional because the bible is as realistic as Greek mythology. To use that as a literal guidelins is dillusional.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I was responding to this:

I just read meth use the bible as an actual fucking time line for life. As if it were a reliable source.

...

Either way converting someone won't happen on a message board.

I don't expect a conversion but if we're incapable of influencing/educating others, then what is the point?

...

You could have called him delusional. Instead, you chose to use the "word" dillusional: which is slang for a delusional idiot... Either that, or you don't know how to spell. (It wasn't a typo. You wrote it three times.)

Let's not turn this into an onslaught of anti-Christianity, okay?

 

[Dystopia35]

Why yes I mispelled a word. You got me. How is your ego?heh Of course you would not want to have anyone question your faith. Does that make you uncomfortable? Whether you like it or not,my atheist views are relavent to the conversation.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Describing all religious people as mentally ill is not relevant to the conversation and you didn't add anything to the debate in the post I objected to either. It doesn't make me at all uncomfortable when people question my religious orientation. Have at it, if you please. You lost all credibility when you made that blanket statement about all religious people being mentally-ill. I have ego issues, like the rest of us, but I'm working on them. I'm not, however, frequenting spiritualist internet forums so I can make sweeping elitist comments that insult the vast majority of humans on the planet... nor am I citing an endless series of scientific studies that I find on Google, as if they're representative of my intellect.

I apologized for insulting meth earlier in the thread. I genuinely thought he was a troll. (I thought he was just fucking with people, for the sake of it.) That was a mistake, and I feel a little ashamed for the way I acted in retrospect. It's not representative of me, generally.

Other than that, I don't have anything to defend myself about.

You had your chance to apologise about the mentally ill comment and you didn't.

There is still time, though.

 

[Dystopia35]

Well I will not apoligize. Funny thing is, I don't see saying that people are mentally is an insult. Unless you have something wrong with mentally people? Techinally I am mentally I'll. I have MDD so does my daughter. However as I said a long time ago, there is a correlation with religion and mental illness. You dismiss that well that is fine. My feelings are not hurt.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Yeah, I think there's something wrong with mentally ill people because you called everyone who is religious mentally ill. That makes a lot of sense. If you called all Asian people homosexuals, that would also be offensive. Does that mean I'm a homophobe? Obviously, there's a correlation between mental illness and religion. There's a correlation between religion and everything. Over 90% of the world is religious, so how could there not be? But, that's not what you said anyway. You equated them. What you said was ignorant and offensive. There's a correlation between your family and mental illness. So, according to your logic, you should equate your family with mental illness. There are more African American people in jail than Caucasian people. So there's a correlation between black Americans and incarceration. Therefore, you should equate black people with crime... How about we finish this (if we have to) by PM?

 

[methamaniac]

Lets let cooler heads prevail.

why would you need to come to some creationist to stay up on sciences???
I' 'll tell you why. You expected to have a little fun making fun of me and then move on.
Instead I made you think.
I said the end result in the beginning would be religious attack, or more you cant explain how your God exactly did it so my faith wins .( not that this is a "winnable thing")
Classic straw man . If nothing else my premise was right.

WILLOW, I assume you're being honest.
--------------------------------------------------
Why would anybody care what this stupid creationist thinks. Im not actually hurting anybody. So what if I am wrong, in about 80 years tops we will both be either in a box or ashes so why would you care to waste a second on what the hell i think?
You"re not humoring me with questions.
I would submit you have same yearning of knowledge as me.
Looking for answers to these questions
who am I
where did I come from
where am I going
same questions you would ask if you woke up in a ditch suffering from amnesia

To points,
Not knowing mind of God is relevant.
If you expect me to be able to give you a line by line narrative, of course I cant
Obviously I think the creator dwells for the most part in other dimensions.
Dinos,
Google dinosaur pictures on ancient carvings
just look at those pictures
Seems these people saw dinosaurs
I said I do not believe million years old,
Ballpark , thousands otherwise wouldn't find the DNA. How long it can be preserved not sure,
but certainly not millions of years
The universe, would appear to be old
but you have to understand we are talking about point of view. Its relative. If I was moving at speed of light I wouldn't know it. ( see Eisenstein/ special relativity).
Do I believe in old testament/ bible literally?
Inspired work of God but there are absolute truths in it. Jesus uses metaphors about absolute truths because you dont anything absolutley cause your not God. You must use faith and you will always use faith cause you will never be God to know his mind.
Same as you take faith your child loves you.
You can never get in their mind.
Could an ark literally work. I submit it could if original kinds ( wouldnt need whole species of dog) where what was took on ark.
Like the Jews recieving mana in the deseret you have to take that on faith. Did they recieve knowledge of how to make some algae type substance/ pellets like astronauts use who knows. Miracles are miracles even if they stay within scientific terms.
Historical account?
Um, pretty dam good one you ask me.
Time and time again scholars go back to bible as they find new discoveries/text.
Time on big bang and man being formed,
I really have no basis for answer at this point.
Im not even sure I understand time well enough to make sweeping statements on how it is viewed. Call it cop out if you want to, just being honest.
Thought we were debating on validity of evolution theory explaining new creatures without designer? ( just teasing questions fine)

Ps Bible can be health benefit
Avoiding a the animals that are unclean is advice to keep you bealthy. Same for Sabbath observance.
RICO,
You've been cheeky throughout
I dont think you are serious, just looking for laugh. But joke is you're getting clowned.
Convergent evolution?
How about you a dress that first, and I may take your questions seriously
On cambrian explosion,
Yes forever after,
He doesn't see evidence doesn't really help him and actually hurts theory.
Dont know if he seriously doesn't see this or is just pretending

Sunday breakfast.....
be back