Documentary: Fat Head

[Care]

I may post this in F&T aswell but i think it will probably get a better response here.

A follow up to supersize me that presents the other side of the carb vs fat argument. I really enjoyed it. Available on hulu.

 

[addictivepersona]

Care to sum it up and relate it to living healthily for those of us who haven't seen it and don't plan to? ;)

I'm tempted to toss this over to F&T, but I'll give it a chance--Dunno what Change'll do though.

 

[ugly]

It's available on Netflix so I'm streaming it right now. I'll post again afterwards.

 

[Care]

Care to sum it up and relate it to living healthily for those of us who haven't seen it and don't plan to? ;)

I'm tempted to toss this over to F&T, but I'll give it a chance--Dunno what Change'll do though.

Certainly

Basically a high protein, high fat, low carb diet in conjunction with strength training/cardio is the best way to lose fat and maintain lean muscle.

Eating large amounts of carbs (rice,potatoes,wheat,sugar, ect) spikes your insulin, which increases the rate at which your body stores fat.

The documentary suggests that it is not so important what the source of the calories you are eating is, rather the macro nutrient composition and weather or not you are eating under your maintaince. The guy in the doco goes on a nothing but mcdonalds diet for a month and loses 6 pounds by limiting his calories and carbs, and doing very light exercise. His blood cholesterol was also better then it was when he started.

 

[Changed]

I don't think a high-fat, high protein diet is healthy in the long run, but I did the Atkins diet during highschool and lost 20 pounds (back when I was a chubby athletic kid).

The movie might be entertaining, but it can't really overshadow the fact that a diet high in vegetables and fruits, and composed entirely of whole foods, is the healthiest diet, no questions asked. Of course, if the movie encourages people to exercise and maintain a low caloric intake, it can't be all bad...

 

[Care]

I don't think a high-fat, high protein diet is healthy in the long run, but I did the Atkins diet during highschool and lost 20 pounds (back when I was a chubby athletic kid).

The movie might be entertaining, but it can't really overshadow the fact that a diet high in vegetables and fruits, and composed entirely of whole foods, is the healthiest diet, no questions asked. Of course, if the movie encourages people to exercise and maintain a low caloric intake, it can't be all bad...

Entertaining? I think its rather informative.
Composed entirely of whole foods? Does that exclude meat? If so i totally disagree.

Under glycolysis, you must first deplete blood-glucose and glycogen stores in order to begin utilizing fats as energy, but the breakdown of fat must then compete with the breakdown of muscle-mass. The result of this competition or duel catabolism is about as much muscle-mass lost as fat. This can of course be largely avoided thru ketosis since under ketosis body-fat is the first and primary source of energy. Ketosis is muscle-sparing for the simple reason that proteins no longer compete with fatty acids for energy utilization. Under ketosis, protein is a secondary energy source and thus muscle is largely spared.

This basically states that if you eat a significant amount of carbs, that energy gets stored in your muscles as glycogen. When you exercise that glycogen is the most easily accessible source of energy, so your body uses mostly glycogen until you run at at which point it starts using more bodyfat.

When you are in a low carb state you have lower amounts of glycogen in your muscles, so when you start exercising your body starts burning bodyfat faster then it would normally. Also, as i said before carbs spike your insulin, and insulin is really good at turning excess carbs into fat.

 

[addictivepersona]

Oy, there is so much wrong in my opinion (and in the opinion of the ADA ) with the Atkin's diet and eating only protein/fat but I unfortunately only have time to scratch the surface here.

When you eat only protein and fat, your body is in a very acidic state. Your body prefers to be in an alkaline state. Yes, you will lose weight eating high fat/protein and reducing calories, but you will also lose weight eating high carb/fat and reducing calories. Hell, you'll even lose weight eating high carb/protein and reducing calories. Do you see the connection?! It does not matter what you eat to lose weight except for the amount of calories. It does not matter where those calories come from to lose weight.

Now to lose weight healthily, is an entirely different matter.

I'm with Changed on this one: That a diet full of real, whole-foods (including [organic, non-GM, non-GH, non-crap] meat if one must), focusing primarily on fruits and vegetables, is the best way to go for weight loss. It's the most sustainable since you're including everything. Going on a high fat/protein diet, what do you do when you have to reintroduce carbohydrates back into your diet (and you're going to have to eventually)? Uh oh, weight gain!

Carbs are not the devil. Yes, they spike your insulin if you eat too much: SO DON'T EAT TOO MUCH. 8)

(Please note, the anger in this post was not directed at any one person in particular, except for the fucktard to made diets like these so popular.)

 

[Wolfmans_BrothEr]

^this

Losing weight comes down to burning more calories than you ingest.

Gaining weight is consuming more calories than you burn

 

[Care]

Oy, there is so much wrong in my opinion (and in the opinion of the ADA ) with the Atkin's diet and eating only protein/fat but I unfortunately only have time to scratch the surface here.

When you eat only protein and fat, your body is in a very acidic state. Your body prefers to be in an alkaline state. Yes, you will lose weight eating high fat/protein and reducing calories, but you will also lose weight eating high carb/fat and reducing calories. Hell, you'll even lose weight eating high carb/protein and reducing calories. Do you see the connection?! It does not matter what you eat to lose weight except for the amount of calories. It does not matter where those calories come from to lose weight.

Now to lose weight healthily, is an entirely different matter.

I'm with Changed on this one: That a diet full of real, whole-foods (including [organic, non-GM, non-GH, non-crap] meat if one must), focusing primarily on fruits and vegetables, is the best way to go for weight loss. It's the most sustainable since you're including everything. Going on a high fat/protein diet, what do you do when you have to reintroduce carbohydrates back into your diet (and you're going to have to eventually)? Uh oh, weight gain!



(Please note, the anger in this post was not directed at any one person in particular, except for the fucktard to made diets like these so popular.)

I didn't say only eat protein and fat, and neither did the doco which im guessing you didn't bother to watch. The idea is to have a low overall carbs and be high in dietary fiber.

Vegetables i agree with you on, I dont think anyone can make a case against most vegetables for fat loss (low carbs overall and high in vitamins and minerals and all kinds of other goodies). However fruits with alot of fructose (apples, bananas, peaches ect) are high in vitamins and minerals and other good stuff but the fact that they are mostly sugar does not make them ideal for weight loss.

I also said in my last post that it is possible to lose weight on a high carb diet if you are under your caloric needs. And you're right in saying that by far the largest determining factor in weight loss is calories in vs calories out. However if your goal is to maintain lean body mass and lose fat then eating "whole foods" that are 90% carbs is not as effective, you will lose more muscle compared to a low carb diet. Also, when cutting calories eating fat and protein is much more satiating per calorie than most sources of carbohydrate so there is that added benefit.

Most modern low carb diets have periods called carb ups where the dieter is encouraged to eat a high fiber normal carb diet for a few days.

Carbs are not the devil. Yes, they spike your insulin if you eat too much: SO DON'T EAT TOO MUCH. 8)

That is exactly what i am saying. Lets be 100% clear, I am not advocating the 0 carb atkins diet, I am talking about a low carb diet with high dietary fiber that is built for people that want to preserve LBM and lose fat. As long as you keep you carbs relitavely low after you are off this diet it is a good (the best IMO) sustainable way to make to make a positive change if you are overweight.

Watch the doco or do your own research and decide for yourself.

^this

Losing weight comes down to burning more calories than you ingest.

Gaining weight is consuming more calories than you burn

yes but what macronutrients you consume is a huge factor in what type of weight you lose (fat or muscle). The more muscle you have the more calories you burn while doing exercise.

 

[modern buddha]

^ In response to most of these posts, yes, when you eat anything high in carbs OR fat OR protein, those are calories.

There have been other studies which show that even on a fast food diet, you can lose weight.
Here is one such article.

Eat less, weigh less.

With all of the GMOs and chemicals in most non-organic foods these days, I wouldn't trust what this type of diet would be doing to my innards. Yeah, you can lose weight. But you can also hurt your digestive tract by eating this type of diet.

 

[Wolfmans_BrothEr]

yes but what macronutrients you consume is a huge factor in what type of weight you lose (fat or muscle). The more muscle you have the more calories you burn while doing exercise.

Your body has enough stored fat & nutrients to the point where it won't eat muscle until your seriously deprived, like on the brink of intense starvation

Depending on what you eat you might not gain any muscle but you certainly won't start losing it

 

[attempt4]

Actually really burning up muscle in "starvation mode" (which is the gradual downregulation of your metabolism in the face of long term calorie restriction & lowered bodyfat levels doesn't kick in after 12 hours of no protein or no food or being hungry - it takes months to show itself.

Macro's are not half as important as overall calorific intake.
Carbohydrates, fat and proteins are ALL important. Carbohydrates are your incorrectly loathed in this society for some reason! The basis of the best diet to lose weight is one where you take less cals in than you expend.

This guy sounds like the kind of guy who would mistakenly go on to try and tell me that meal frequency and timing of when you eat matters aswell (which most certainly isn't true given that during the catabolic state one's anabolic systems upregulate so that if you were to eat whatever is the required calorific intake say at 9pm after going the entire day without food, all the losses that have occured are in fact effectively replenished)

Engage in Weight Training 3x/week. Consume at least 1g/lb lean body mass a day....Eat whatever you like after that if you so wish, so long as you consume up to 500cals under maintenance (or whatever works for you, calculated efficiently) levels and are losing weight, Enjoy fruit/veg/nuts (to get Essential Fatty Acids) each day.
You will effectively lose fat this way (yes, even by filling in the rest of your diet with carbs if you want).

 

[mgmt&mdma]

^this

Losing weight comes down to burning more calories than you ingest.

Gaining weight is consuming more calories than you burn

yeah that seems logical but i still dont understand how some people can consume over 2000 calories of junk food, not work out, and not gain a pound. its soo frustrating hahaha

 

[modern buddha]

^ Perhaps it was a one day thing. Can't gain a pound if you don't eat 3500 calories (or however much it is).

You're right though, metabolism comes into play when figuring out calorie consumption. But it's not the main point of this thread.

 

[Wolfmans_BrothEr]

yeah that seems logical but i still dont understand how some people can consume over 2000 calories of junk food, not work out, and not gain a pound. its soo frustrating hahaha

everyones bodies are different i mean thats obvious but also your body will change over time. like im 21 and for my entire life ive been able to eat whatever i wanted without gaining an ounce, but over the past 8 months to a year or so is when ive started to see small signs of what ive eaten causing me to gain weight.

some people can eat whatever they want and others gain weight after eating a cheeseburger, its all different

 

[Legerity]

I've followed a low carb diet only for a short period of time so I can't really give much personal experience on that. I did watch the movie and found it somewhat entertaining. I'm not sure if it mentions this book or not but Good Calories Bad Calories by Gary Taubes provides an impressive review of scientific literature regarding low carb diets, obesity, cholesterol, etc. It's pretty dense and is like reading a 600 page journal article but some of the findings are quite interesting regardless of whether or not you agree with the hypothesis that carbs/insulin are responsible for obesity. He has a newer book out which is less dense and geared toward the general public but I doubt it has the depth of information that his other book has.

IMO, looking at the diets that various cultures eat it seems obvious that a high carbohydrate diet in itself cannot be responsible for the current obesity epidemic.

 

[aanallein]

Eh.... anybody arguing against a low (or as close to zero) carb diet has zero understanding of the way the human body works.

Limiting carbohydrates to only the brief period of time post exercise, if ever, is the best way you could possibly eat.


Fundamentally, yes, if you eat more than you burn, you'll gain and if you eat less, you'll lose. But there is FAR more to it than that unless you're satisfied with a sub par physique and are happy with blood sugar levels all over the place throughout the day. Sorry but I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in having a 6 pack, being strong as hell, and not being tired when I'm at work. To achieve that I control my macro intake. Specifically, I limit carbohydrates to 1 hour of time each day only. That ONE thing changes my entire metabolism, energy level, and body fat percent. So stop arguing rubbish and accept that you're running a sub optimal diet plan (there's nothing wrong with it, it's not easy to commit to this approach for most people).

 

[addictivepersona]

Eh.... anybody arguing against a low (or as close to zero) carb diet has zero understanding of the way the human body works.

The body uses carbohydrates to LIVE and uses protein to maintain muscles and fat to maintain fat stores. At least according to the ADA and a couple biology/chemistry courses I've taken.

How does the body work if it doesn't use carbohydrates for energy and wants to spare protein for muscle maintenance?

 

[aanallein]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenesis

 

[modern buddha]

^ However, putting your body in a state of Ketosis, like any other crisis state, can only last for so long.

Think of it this way. When you get hit by something hard and potentially break things, your body goes into a state of shock. How long does this state of shock last? A few hours or so? Then you can feel every single ounce of pain being sent through your body. Your body can only uphold the shock state for so long before it lets go.

Your body can only undergo ketosis for limited amounts of time, also. After that, your body lets go of ketosis and begins to work at a state less than what it takes to function properly. Symptoms could include drowziness, fatigue and a lessened ability to perform physical tasks. Exactly how long your body can survive on ketosis with no negative side effects is what I do not know. I'd be willing to guess your body can survive in a ketosis phase for a few months. This is evolutionarily helpful in times of carbohydrate famine. It can't go on forever, though.

Carbohydrates are your body's quickest and most efficient means of energy. Ever wonder why you hear people on a low carb diet say they are tired after a few months and don't know why? The limited timing of ketosis is why.