DOC + Opioid

[《Plasticity》]

I have almost no direct experience with opiates. Based on my understanding of the pharmacology of opiates I decided to avoid them because I use psychedelics frequently. I have also herd second hand combining the two habits had some terrible consequences for Dead Heads in the late twentieth century. Here is something I wrote about this as a warning several months back. IF YOU USE BOTH I RECOMMEND DOING ONE OR THE OTHER AND NEVER BOTH IN THE SAME WEEK.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/685559-Serotonergic-psychedelics-and-dopaminergic-drugs-of-abuse

Forgive me for being misunderstood but I'm not quite grasping what your trying to convey, mind summing up your claim in a way that's a bit more clear and brief? I've been an opioid addict for years and have been doing psychedelics for longer and I'm not quite sure whether I'm proving your point or doing the opposite. So you are saying that by taking an opioid after a psychedelic dopamine levels are increased more than average therefor leading to increased risk of addiction and self destructive behavior?

Opiates don't help with cramps. They might just add to the problem instead.

Opioids definately help muscle cramps caused by VC, especially leg cramps. As for abdominal cramps due to indigestion? Not so much help there I guess.

 

[hollywood_cole]

just adding my $0.02...

i've combined psilocybin mushrooms with hydrocodone before, and i had a great time. once was at home hanging out alone in my room, the other time was for the chemical brothers' set at coachella 2011.

i would agree that it's probably not an appropriate combination if you're looking to do serious introspective work with the psychedelic (though i guess that depends on the person). but for just some fun hedonistic times, the headfuck aspect of the mushrooms combined well with the warm blanket aspect of the hydrocodone, and both substances enhance the way you take in art (albeit each in their own unique way, with the psilocybin giving the feeling of deep spiritual connection and the hydrocodone doing its general happiness enhancement thing).

both occasions were low to moderate doses, maybe a third of an eighth of mushrooms and 3.75 mg of hydrocodone for the at home trip, and maybe half an eight of mushrooms and 7.5 mg of hydrocodone for the music festival trip. on both occasions, the mushrooms were in the form of chocolates and the hydrocodone was vicodin.

i'm supposed to eat LSD with some friends this weekend (assuming i've gotten well enough from my current sore throat, which seems likely). i've been toying with the idea of brewing a bit of kratom tea for a relaxing come down. though i actually just got prescribed codeine cough syrup for this sore throat, so i guess that's an option now too. i think this trip will be a mixture of productive introspection and plain fun, so an opioid on the comedown seems reasonable.

FWIW, i really enjoy opioids and psychedelics on their own. i probably take some sort of psychedelic a few times per year, and i probably take some sort of opioid once every week or two (mostly kratom tea, these days). i tend to dose a little low on both.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

I never got to try kratom/psychedelics and, well MGS can't go there no more, but I would imagine something like kratom and psychedelics could be very nice. But my experiences with it (always the 'bali' stuff) led me to believe kratom has an uplifing/proto-stimulant effect that makes it unique.

 

[《Plasticity》]

^ You would be correct making that assumption. Kratom is the only mu agonist that I can think of that synergizes with psychedelics without dulling any mental and visual effects, probably due to it's long list of complex alkaloids. Also if I'm not mistaken mitragynine is actually an indole, if that means anything. Kratom definately adds some 'sunshine' to my trips whilst ridding me of any tension and anxiety. Being an addict though it's not like I would have a choice anyways...

 

[FunctionalOlfactio]

So you are saying that by taking an opioid after a psychedelic dopamine levels are increased more than average therefor leading to increased risk of addiction and self destructive behavior.

Yes, this is exactly what my belief is. There might also be an increased risk of over dosing.

A short synopsis is that the afterglow from many psychedelics is due to decreased inhibition of the release of some neurochemicals including dopamine. Opiates further decrease dopamine release inhibition in a much stronger way due to gaba effects down stream of the opiate receptor.

A diagram demonstrating the relationship between the opiate receptor and dopamine.
http://www.cnsforum.com/imagebank/item/moa_heroin_mu/default.aspx

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[《Plasticity》]

Hmm that's defintately an interesting arguement, although I'm not quite sure I agree with it 100%. I mean I have little info of pharmacology so physically there might be some truth to that but mentally...IDK. After trips I feel the urge to use opiates (or all drugs) drops quite a bit although since I'm an addict I am kinda forced to dose anyways or suffer withdrawals til I do wanna dose. So increased risk of self-destructive behavior? For me, no, quite the opposite but physically I don't know. I got addicted in a period of off time with psychedelics, physically addicted that is. I've loved opiates since the first time I tried em in middle school, especially when one or two norcos did the job .

Another thing I wanna mention is that quite a few heavy opioid users don't like psychedelics (probably because the trips bring their problems to the surface). If you don't believe me go to a forum like opiophile and get their opinions on psychedelics, the words "anxiety" and "constant panic attack" will be thrown around quite a bit. Hmm I wonder why, is it guilt ? I've always though that opiate addiction and heavy psychedelic use was as far from "hand in hand" as possible but you do bring up quite an interesting point, on the physical level at least. But then again I don't feel in any way guilty about my habit since I'm primarily on kratom now (excluding 1 day of the week where I will treat myself to some H or traditional opiates if I feel I've deserved it) so I don't have any of those difficult trips trying to get me to stop so apparently it can be done, not that I'm the only one to juggle an opioid addiction with frequent psychedelic use.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Another thing I wanna mention is that quite a few heavy opioid users don't like psychedelics (probably because the trips bring their problems to the surface)..

I would say the vast majority of junkies do not 'like' tripping and conversely, I don't know anyone in my circle of friends and others who used/use to love opiates, much less ever take them. The two class of drugs are literally mirror opposites in every manor, from how the affect the pupils to how they affect the mind.

Opiate-loving (or formerly) psychedelic heads like CaptainKratom are an anomaly.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I couldn't agree more MGS, opiates dull your problems and take you away from real life while psychedelics do the exact opposite. When opioid addiction is at it's peak users will do some shady things to get their DOC but it's all good because once they get their fix they're numb of emotions. Take a psychedelic and prepare for everything to be thrown in your face. Even if the addict isn't shady, having to poke yourself with a needle to not be sick while tripping must be pretty gruesome. I have to agree that I'm in the minority but then again I like pretty much all classes of drugs excluding straight-forward stims.

 

[Solipsis]

Doesn't this demonstrate the different intentions people may have when using a psychedelic? Some want to use them recreationally, some want to use psychedelic for divination and of course the intentions can also be mixed, it's probably like a spectrum.
I think that would lead us back to another dilemma, people tend to say you can't pick and choose too much with psychedelics. It is unrealistic and inappropriate to only expect a completely one-sided trip and to seek only recreation, only philosophical contemplation or only emotional/spiritual therapy, etc. Getting pleasurable, lighthearted effects as a bonus to your deeply philosophical trip is for obvious reasons rarely ever a complaint, but the other way round it is much different.

Adding opioids or benzo's or other dulling drugs to a psychedelic may meddle with the balance of effects a person might get though I wouldn't say that you this is a reliable recipe to isolate the aspects of a psychedelic trip such as the recreational aspect. Nevertheless some might find this approach effective and I guess it consequently becomes a matter of what our moral values have to say about that.

Even though I might or might not think some combinations with psychedelics are a form of abuse, I respect that everyone has a right to put into their body and mind what they like as long as the result doesn't directly affect and bother other people too much.

One other thing: this stance can change over time for an individual. It is possible that someone can combine psychedelics and opioids and have a great time, but this person may come to see later (for example during a trip without an opioid) that it is a shame to combine them and that too many great effects are sacrificed. Some people might just be missing out! But unfortunately intersubjectivity shows us that we can never really say who's is right.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Well with that logic will taking chems like 2c-c, 4-ho-met, 25x, or aMT be considered abuse since these chems rarely produce spiritual experiences in me? I agree that combining with opioids for recreation may be seen as abuse but let's face it, not all trips are spiritual in the least bit. There are psychedelics that I use for spirituality (DMT, mushies, very high dose LSD, 2c-e etc) and there are wonderful chems that just happen to not be spiritual like the ones I listed above and quite a bit of others. They are wonderful chems and I enjoy them but is it abuse that I choose to use them knowing I most likely won't be having some life changing experience? The whole psychedelic abuse thing is a bit silly unless your clearly binging on psychedelics. Nowadays I don't go into any trip with any expectations because if I'm seeking a therapeutic session and the headspace isn't quite right then that dissapoints me a bit. I personally only use opioids/benzos on the comedown of long or tense trips except for small maintenance doses of kratom during the trip so I'm not going through W/D mid trip.

 

[hollywood_cole]

Opiate-loving (or formerly) psychedelic heads like CaptainKratom are an anomaly.

not that my anecdotal experience provides a huge sample set of data, and i can definitely see MGS' point here (esp about how the effects of psychedelics and opioids are opposed to one another in so many ways). but i'd say that most of my friends who indulge in chemicals beyond MJ and alcohol enjoy both opioids and psychedelics. none (as far as i know) are opioid addicts, and i can't think of specific stories from any of them where they combined the two, but i know quite a few of them who've enjoyed intense (in either a productive sense or a hedonistic sense) psychedelic experiences (typically on mushrooms or acid), but who would also be quite happy to eat a vicodin or have some kratom tea and relax, depending on the occasion.