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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Do you really want and would you accept a supernatural God?

I tend to agree with Cosmic Trigger on this. You seem to be unintentionally falling for the "mental illness is a choice" fallacy, Xorkoth. Of course, some psychological issues can be remedied solely by positive thinking, but it's rather an exception than the norm. I have struggled with a few issues myself and have close people with some as well, and even from first-hand experience I can tell you that it is not a choice. If it was that easy, then nobody would suffer, as Cosmic Trigger put it.

Drug addiction falls in the same category in my opinion. It's a psychological issue and the "just say no" or complete abstinence approach just doesn't work for the most. It certainly doesn't work for me.

I will also add this: in my experience, depression that is not a result of external factors is the worst. I have suffered from it for as long as I can remember. The reason it's so bad is because everything in my life seems to be alright, yet I am depressed. If there was something wrong and I could fix it, then at least I would have a way to improve the situation, but alas.
 
i agree as well and find it a little insulting when people say things like 'happiness is a choice' as if people would prefer to be miserable. perhaps some do but of course most do not. David Foster Wallace would be a good example of this; he preached that an integral part of getting through adult life was exercising control of what you think about and how you construct meaning from experience. This might sound a bit harsh but in the end the choice must have been taken away from him.
 
Fair points. I guess I'm lucky in that other than as a result of external factors, I've always been a pretty happy person. I was riding the end of a pretty glorious psychedelic night when I posted that. I wonder if there was/is as much mental illness in other types of cultures throughout the world and history? It seems like so many people are depressed or anxious these days. It seems to me it must be at least partly situational (being raised in a culture that doesn't value some of the things that are important to the human organism, for example), but it's not easy to do anything about that, maybe not even fully possible.

I didn't mean that anyone would prefer to be miserable when I said that, just that maybe people don't know how to make that change or understand that it's possible (if indeed it is).

I think there are some fundamental things that are necessary for humans to feel fulfilled, based on the long history of our species having these things: community/love, connection to nature, and a feeling of being connected to something greater (spirituality). These days spirituality is out the window as a concept for many people, yet we have always had that. Our civilization is so big that community is often warped into some sort of massive competition, especially in cities, where instead of feeling connected to your fellow man, you might feel mistrustful, scornful or fearful. Also, especially in cities, it's often rare for people to really immerse in or feel connected to nature. It's my hypothesis that these factors contribute hugely to our situation. That, and the fact that for many, what you do for work drains your energy. It feels a lot different doing something you immediately see the value in (for example, making something for your community) than it does working some shit job that's lining the pockets of some rich sociopath. I think that people are so used to these things being this way that they don't even understand that it's what's causing them pain. We've made a huge shift in lifestyle in a very short amount of time, and that's got to have an impact on the way we feel on a very deep level, in my mind.

To some extent it's possible to change these circumstances, but it's hard at best.
 
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Xorkoth said:
I didn't mean that anyone would prefer to be miserable when I said that, just that maybe people don't know how to make that change or understand that it's possible (if indeed it is).
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i wasn't responding to you directly when i mentioned that part, i see the 'happiness is a choice' platitude pop up often - usually new age spiritualist people and some psychologists. i think mental illness is the result of many factors and for most people not something you can think your way out of. (biological-psychological-sociological-economical-health-dietary..etc etc.)

more on topic: how do you find meaning without god?
 
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My view is that we are all the universe experiencing itself subjectively, in essence the same being. What we do in this life matters insofar as it affects us, the way we behave towards others, and the things we bring into the world. The purpose of life is to experience it, and I derive meaning from things that bring me joy, such as relationships and music. It has meaning because it means something to me. I find it incredible that we exist in this intensely complex and trippy universe, made up of compressed energy and primarily empty space, floating around in a vaccuum, pulled by gravity onto a rocky planet. For me, that's all the meaning I need.
 
Xorkoth said:
Fair points. I guess I'm lucky in that other than as a result of external factors, I've always been a pretty happy person. I was riding the end of a pretty glorious psychedelic night when I posted that. I wonder if there was/is as much mental illness in other types of cultures throughout the world and history? It seems like so many people are depressed or anxious these days. It seems to me it must be at least partly situational (being raised in a culture that doesn't value some of the things that are important to the human organism, for example), but it's not easy to do anything about that, maybe not even fully possible.

I didn't mean that anyone would prefer to be miserable when I said that, just that maybe people don't know how to make that change or understand that it's possible (if indeed it is).

I think there are some fundamental things that are necessary for humans to feel fulfilled, based on the long history of our species having these things: community/love, connection to nature, and a feeling of being connected to something greater (spirituality). These days spirituality is out the window as a concept for many people, yet we have always had that. Our civilization is so big that community is often warped into some sort of massive competition, especially in cities, where instead of feeling connected to your fellow man, you might feel mistrustful, scornful or fearful. Also, especially in cities, it's often rare for people to really immerse in or feel connected to nature. It's my hypothesis that these factors contribute hugely to our situation. That, and the fact that for many, what you do for work drains your energy. It feels a lot different doing something you immediately see the value in (for example, making something for your community) than it does working some shit job that's lining the pockets of some rich sociopath. I think that people are so used to these things being this way that they don't even understand that it's what's causing them pain. We've made a huge shift in lifestyle in a very short amount of time, and that's got to have an impact on the way we feel on a very deep level, in my mind.

To some extent it's possible to change these circumstances, but it's hard at best.
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I definitely agree here, but often times the distinctions of what triggers depression in people (myself included) are very blurry. For a few years after my father died I felt fine. It wasn't bad, I functioned well when I was little. But now, going on into 10th grade I feel like nothing is going my way. I struggle with abusing drugs and alcohol (don't we all?), I see psychologists regularly, I'm undermedicated by doctors and overly medicated by myself, yet to no avail I feel the same as I always do. The things that I can change seem so small, and hardly am I ever in the mood to do it. I have a nice little meditation schedule and all. My grades suffer horribly. My stepfather informed that if I act the way I did this year in 10th grade that life wouldn't be worth living. I passed all my classes.

Tomorrow is my last day of school by the way. I have to take a test for my hand tools certification and I'm done. I'm upset that school is over yet pleased for the fresh start.

I don't chose to feel upset. I don't idolize depression, I don't tell my friends and I don't ask them to pity me. I don't self harm besides drugs. I'm just ranting at this point sorry.

I try and do the best I can with how I feel, I take time to appreciate things, hardly taking stuff for granted. I get the luxuries if a first world yet on the inside I feel I have never known entire happiness. Like I've never felt a mental equilibrium.

What am I even typing anymore. Sorry guys, I would delete this but I would have typed it for nothing im getting high niw mgvvv

ngthing is gilod liket this anymore.
 
For some of us this world as is, is not sufficient. We want more than life offers. We didn't ask to be born and we actually have very little that we control, we for the most part are subject to the many "slings and arrow of outrageous fortune". There was a time when this fact had little effect on me. I hadn't really hit my personal bottom of suffering. Once you do it may be an eye opener and the study of life on another level begins. If you really reflect on what seems apparent you will come to realize you are not special. Soon you will age, decay, likely suffer in that decay and finally perish to be forgotten pretty much like that ant you killed when you were six. In the end living organisms basic function is to fight and kill, tear and masticate, digest and shit, "make love" so it may continue on as long as possible for your species. However eventually our species will die away like the others. This is why the Buddha said life is suffering. He also gave a method for reducing or elimination of suffering. However it's extremely difficult unless you were born into it and even then...

So here we are stuck in this quagmire and eventually with time and experience many will come to recognize the truth that may be in the things I've pointed to. Like I said I only finally truly grokked it when I aged and my energy/life force began to decline. Before that I was, IMO, ignorantly hopeful. Oh to have those days back again. But there's the rub.

Personally this awareness, while extremely painful for me has had one benefit that I value a great deal. It has taught me how to be compassionate and empathetic on levels I did not know I had in me and I am very grateful indeed for that. I see a world/planet in great suffering for so many of the inhabitants. So I wish for all of you great amounts of good luck and little suffering. It's all I have to give. And when it's finally my time to die by chance or by my own hand I won't miss this place hardly at all. I wanted so much more than life ever offered me. Thanks for a great discussion friends.
 
Keep your head up Nix. I find comfort that we are not special in any way. It gives me perspective that no matter what, we are just a blip in timeline of everything and our actions mean nothing. But it is liberating rather than a hindrance, as I feel it allows us to choose whatever path we feel is for us and not worry about the end consequence. Youve been through a lot for someone so young but remember, do whatever you alone feel is appropriate to keep going. If that means coming here to talk to curmudgeonly dudes double or triple your age, do it. If you need real help, get it. When nothing matters, your options are limitless.
 
Simple Definition of curmudgeon
: a person (especially an old man) who is easily annoyed or angered and who often complains
Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

I assume you refer to me with this term. Please explain how anything I've posted shows me to fit this definition other than my age? ;)
 
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I was talking about me but would be lying if I didn't consider you as well. It was a litte joke as I do not think you are one at all.
 
I think the 8 of us who read P&S all recognize your contribution. More people should read this forum but I guess most just accept their place and move on.
 
Only eight? A very exclusive club. I have found that the largest audience are lurkers. Some hang around for years.
 
Bwaha. When Cosmic joined I was 6 years old!

Doctor Kitty, did you just become a mod or am I just now noticing?
 
Nixiam said:
Mary Jane = Cannabis.



A bullet with God's name on it? I don't quite understand. Sorry.
To me, faith is irrational without evidence. But completely okay as long as nobody blows up... quite literally.

But the God argument is getting old.





Btw I accept you OTW^^^
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True that the argument is an old one but the religious are not getting the truth out of their greedy hierarchies.

I would end that argument quickly if religions were not contributing so much to the harm in the world.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
I see it as quite easy to do so.

I would just show this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

Regards
DL
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Not buying sorry. Quite easy?, global warming, overpopulation, environmental degradation, unending wars and genocide. If it's quite easy why are so many running in terror from their homeland? Why are people starving as we chat. Fuck I could go on and on. That youtube addressed none of our current problems. Things go up and then they crash. Take a real study of history and ancient civilizations, it's an eyeopener.

Btw I have no illusions that I'll convince you. Just sayin it anyway. Peace out.
 
I respect you Xorkoth and would be happy to work under you for a time.
I do feel awe at the vast intricate machine that is our consensus reality. Back when it worked better for me I loved nothing more than losing myself in it's visual display and trivia followed with a good disso hole. Coming to, and finding the people who not only put up with me, but will seek my com, the fact I still have three people like that amazes me. It also pains me as I still think the instant complete total destruction of the universe would be the True Jubilee, the true forgivness of debts at the dawn of a new King, a truly worthy fireworks show fading until not even space existed, not even a void. A truly clean slate if He felt like trying a universe again at some point.
I don't get why God put Noah on the ark, when he could of made some new clay people when he was done washing away the unworthy, .
 
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