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do strongly held values matter any more?

C

chinup

Bluelighter
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i mean ones that are not sacrificed in the face of extreme hardship.

they do exist, cos i'll give some examples:

i left a job at no notice, with nothing to go to, when asked to behave unethically
many people i know are sharing their homes with ukranian refugees indefinitely
JK Rowling defending her beliefs in the fact of death and rape threats to her and her family, both online and by people coming to her house

even working your fucking ass off to get a decent job seems alien to people these days. at uni when i wasn't profoundly mentally ill, i was working at least 8 hours a day in the week, 4-5 on the weekend (barring the odd heavy one). i know there is a privilege element to this but i see young people who want similar jobs to me who baulk at the idea of putting that much work in, through undergrad and postgrad, then even longer hours at the start of my career. unless they're excetionally bright (which only goes so far) or buck up quick, they've failed before they're even half way through studies.

last time i posted on here it was made very clar by the person replying that they didn't understand why having a strongly held value was worthy of respect. that example was about a guy who'd be a millionaire at the age of 30 if he wasn't so committed to free speech and keeping the internet a place where all views can be shared. he accepts the negative corollaries of free speech, that a lot of people want to say nasty things (he draws the line at breaking the law).

people who've thought their positions through and hold them strongly understand that there will be some nasty conosequences and accept those as better than the alternative. there isn't a perfect belief system, all have bad consequences, so its lazy to go after those imo, more importantly is whether people's actions back up their beliefs.

i dunno, i just feel like in most places online, morality and ethics has devolved to performative wishy washy nonsense delivered in social media friendly soundbites for and by people who'se attention span doesn't go much further than a tweet or a tiktok. maybe i'm just getting fucking old.

there's a lot of old fuckers in EADD so just wondering if your guys perception is the same or if you can help me figure out where i'm going wrong?
 
chinup said:
i mean ones that are not sacrificed in the face of extreme hardship.

they do exist, cos i'll give some examples:

i left a job at no notice, with nothing to go to, when asked to behave unethically
many people i know are sharing their homes with ukranian refugees indefinitely
JK Rowling defending her beliefs in the fact of death and rape threats to her and her family, both online and by people coming to her house

even working your fucking ass off to get a decent job seems alien to people these days. at uni when i wasn't profoundly mentally ill, i was working at least 8 hours a day in the week, 4-5 on the weekend (barring the odd heavy one). i know there is a privilege element to this but i see young people who want similar jobs to me who baulk at the idea of putting that much work in, through undergrad and postgrad, then even longer hours at the start of my career. unless they're excetionally bright (which only goes so far) or buck up quick, they've failed before they're even half way through studies.

last time i posted on here it was made very clar by the person replying that they didn't understand why having a strongly held value was worthy of respect. that example was about a guy who'd be a millionaire at the age of 30 if he wasn't so committed to free speech and keeping the internet a place where all views can be shared. he accepts the negative corollaries of free speech, that a lot of people want to say nasty things (he draws the line at breaking the law).

people who've thought their positions through and hold them strongly understand that there will be some nasty conosequences and accept those as better than the alternative. there isn't a perfect belief system, all have bad consequences, so its lazy to go after those imo, more importantly is whether people's actions back up their beliefs.

i dunno, i just feel like in most places online, morality and ethics has devolved to performative wishy washy nonsense delivered in social media friendly soundbites for and by people who'se attention span doesn't go much further than a tweet or a tiktok. maybe i'm just getting fucking old.

there's a lot of old fuckers in EADD so just wondering if your guys perception is the same or if you can help me figure out where i'm going wrong?
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Nah, do they fuck @chinup

Values, morals and ethics don't mean shit these days (just look at our fuckin government FFS).

Now it's all about virtue signalling - I.e. making it look as though one gives a shit on one's social media feeds, but in reality, one is just a narcissistic prick with no empathy for others.

That is our modern world unfortunately...
 
No respect, no manners no empathy...I see videos of people in trouble or robberies and no body helps just gets the fucking phone out . I won't tolerate bullying and have stepped in a number of times to assist even though there were others closer, same if i see someone ill, straight over to assist - this to me is 'normal ' behaviour. Maybe outside of the cities it's better but London is a cesspit.
 
chinup said:
i mean ones that are not sacrificed in the face of extreme hardship.

they do exist, cos i'll give some examples:

i left a job at no notice, with nothing to go to, when asked to behave unethically
many people i know are sharing their homes with ukranian refugees indefinitely
JK Rowling defending her beliefs in the fact of death and rape threats to her and her family, both online and by people coming to her house

even working your fucking ass off to get a decent job seems alien to people these days. at uni when i wasn't profoundly mentally ill, i was working at least 8 hours a day in the week, 4-5 on the weekend (barring the odd heavy one). i know there is a privilege element to this but i see young people who want similar jobs to me who baulk at the idea of putting that much work in, through undergrad and postgrad, then even longer hours at the start of my career. unless they're excetionally bright (which only goes so far) or buck up quick, they've failed before they're even half way through studies.

last time i posted on here it was made very clar by the person replying that they didn't understand why having a strongly held value was worthy of respect. that example was about a guy who'd be a millionaire at the age of 30 if he wasn't so committed to free speech and keeping the internet a place where all views can be shared. he accepts the negative corollaries of free speech, that a lot of people want to say nasty things (he draws the line at breaking the law).

people who've thought their positions through and hold them strongly understand that there will be some nasty conosequences and accept those as better than the alternative. there isn't a perfect belief system, all have bad consequences, so its lazy to go after those imo, more importantly is whether people's actions back up their beliefs.

i dunno, i just feel like in most places online, morality and ethics has devolved to performative wishy washy nonsense delivered in social media friendly soundbites for and by people who'se attention span doesn't go much further than a tweet or a tiktok. maybe i'm just getting fucking old.

there's a lot of old fuckers in EADD so just wondering if your guys perception is the same or if you can help me figure out where i'm going wrong?
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This is for sure true. So much virtue signaling it’s insane and I hate using that term because it’s too politicalized but that’s the best way to describe it.

Especially in America. We have so many ppl that want everyone to know that they are against racism yet they aren’t leading by example. I am very much against racism, but I’m not going to broadcast it to the world while I pay my minority workers shit wages and try to fool the masses.

And I totally feel what your saying about everyone wants the “ideal job” but they just don’t realize how much work it takes to get there and sacrifice and time. I worked ky way up from a warehouse associate to a lead to a supervisor and eventually a operations manager. Right now I’m working on opening up my own business. And I came from nothing. But ppl don’t realize how much work goes into it. They think you just got it easy.
 
Social media has devolved value propositions to narcissistic virtue signaling. I think a lot of people underestimate the effect social media has had on people's minds. It has been highly detrimental.

That said, when you scratch the surface of a lot of these people, their values fall apart. So I think it's a lack of values, rather than lack of strongly held values, that's happening. And it's because people have replaced lived experience with the internet.
 
Foreigner said:
Social media has devolved value propositions to narcissistic virtue signaling. I think a lot of people underestimate the effect social media has had on people's minds. It has been highly detrimental.

That said, when you scratch the surface of a lot of these people, their values fall apart. So I think it's a lack of values, rather than lack of strongly held values, that's happening. And it's because people have replaced lived experience with the internet.
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You are so right.

I deleted all social media accounts except bluelight and Reddit. And Reddit is nearly as bad but I just stay in selective forums. I’m very selective.
 
Juicewrldfan said:
You are so right.

I deleted all social media accounts except bluelight and Reddit. And Reddit is nearly as bad but I just stay in selective forums. I’m very selective.
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I use reddit for research because a lot of intellectuals hang out there. Besides that, I don't take it seriously because the platform has been overrun by censoring leftists. I use Facebook for staying in touch with people but it's mostly useless for truthful discussions, again because of leftist censorship. I use Twitter for very specific content creators. But I don't really end up in the "death scroll" and waste hours.

If anything I waste the most time making posts on forums, which apparently is "old school" now.
 
Yes. If someone borrows my umbrella and promises to return it. Oh, I dislike them quite a lot if it's raining outside, I can tell you.
 
Two values i always stuck with is hard work provide for your kids and wife only decent thing my old man gave me . Everything else i broken with decades of drug abuse . It was always drummed into me if a man cant be loyal to his kids who can trust him
 
Foreigner said:
Social media has devolved value propositions to narcissistic virtue signaling. I think a lot of people underestimate the effect social media has had on people's minds. It has been highly detrimental.

That said, when you scratch the surface of a lot of these people, their values fall apart. So I think it's a lack of values, rather than lack of strongly held values, that's happening. And it's because people have replaced lived experience with the internet.
Click to expand...

My perspective of this is that few people care about anything.

It's a mistake to think, "People don't care about anything, but they used to care," because I'm not sure that's precisely true. Likewise I think that thinking that people don't care about anything, but they should care about things is a philosophic dead end.

However despite people's pleas that they care much about this or that, despite all of the ado, when you raise the stakes on most men at all they go to jelly. Are you familiar with Kiplinger? He's a gem.

I went into a public house to get a pint of beer,
The publican he up and says, " We serve no red-coats here."
The girls behind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again and to myself says I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, and " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play
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Have you considered, Brave OP, that what you may be experiencing is a moral panic? Mitsushige, Pilates, Mishima, Seneca, and Fogerty all seem to have said comforting things about that.
 
If your "values" involve judging others, mistreating others, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, racism, or trying to tell other people what to do or how to live......then, no. They are ignorant and archaic and have no place in modern society.

If they involve treating everybody with basic respect and dignity and being overall a good, caring person...then this young person certainly thinks they matter a lot!
 
Foreigner said:
That said, when you scratch the surface of a lot of these people, their values fall apart. So I think it's a lack of values, rather than lack of strongly held values, that's happening. And it's because people have replaced lived experience with the internet.
Click to expand...
that could definitely be the case, it would explain the incomprehension i mentioned in the OP just as well.


THECATINTHEHAT said:
Just having a strongly held value alone isn’t worthy of respect. That is obvious.
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that's why i specified that you act on it. if you don't act on it, i'd argue its not a strongly held value.

its not obvious that any particular value can or can't be worth respect though i think some of the basics agreed by all world religions, like don't kill people and don't lie, probably are universally acceptable (though few people act on the latter). but in general, no one can be the arbiter of which values are or are not the correct ones, people have tried for thousands of years and every value system has its problems.

either way, i have more respect for someone with a value that i disagree with, but they have demonstrated clear reasoning about and are willing to suffer for before abandoning, than a professed strong value that that i agree with but is not evident in someone's actions. in the latter case, it doesn't fucking matter what values you profess cos you'll abandon them the second its convenient. maybe you can argue that the former is only respectable for certain values but without a clear way of selecting those values i don't know how you would.
 
chinup said:
either way, i have more respect for someone with a value that i disagree with, but they have demonstrated clear reasoning about and are willing to suffer for before abandoning, than a professed strong value that that i agree with but is not evident in someone's actions
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So you have more respect for the Nazis than someone who professes to care about the environment but doesn’t recycle?

I don’t think you’ve thought this through very well have you.
 
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