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Do other drugs deplenish serotonin?

Somehow I just knew you would be back with a response to defeat me. You win, you always do. That's why I come out here. GOULET!
 
BilZ0r said:
^ I don't care what the "general consensus" is, no one has ever measured the serotonin content of the human brain before and after MDMA.

What is know is that people taking MDMA on two consecutive nights roll more strongly, on average, on the second night [1]. Furthermore, it seems more likely that tolerance is a result of receptor and transporter downregulation.
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well thats interesting, Ive never heard that theory before. So youre saying the theory, that after using MDMA the brains serotonin supply is lowered is false? The high from MDMA is caused by the release of serotonin into the brain though, so this confuses me..
 
mapleleaf said:
well thats interesting, Ive never heard that theory before. So youre saying the theory, that after using MDMA the brains serotonin supply is lowered is false? The high from MDMA is caused by the release of serotonin into the brain though, so this confuses me..
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I guess decreased serotonin is ONLY proven in animal brains.
 
I know it almost to be a fact that marijuana does not effect serotonin, however anandamide stimulates dopamine, not "deplenishing" serotonin.
 
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bilz0r said:
What is know is that people taking MDMA on two consecutive nights roll more strongly, on average, on the second night [1]. Furthermore, it seems more likely that tolerance is a result of receptor and transporter downregulation.
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Well that's objectively seen offcourse, the MDMA concentration in blood is higher. But subjectively, I've found the "TRUE MDMA" high to be severely diminished. There's not much love, empathy, all the good shit is pretty much gone. Yeah you speed hard, but I might as well snort some speed then.

And how would 5HTP work, otherwise? It should cause more receptor downregulation, thus not helping the user, but instead it seems to replenish serotonin and reduce the post-E hangover. It may be all placebo offcourse.. I never liked using 5HTP.

False Patriot said:
I know it to be a fact that marijuana does not effect serotonin, however anandamide stimulates dopamine, not "deplenishing" serotonin.
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Effect on one neuroreceptor can lead to an effect on other receptors.

If I have a good weed tolerance going on I will not hallucinate the slightest from mushrooms, untill I smoke weed. I might not even get any psychedelic effects. I'm very sure THC affects serotonin, or the action of serotonergic drugs.
 
Lev said:
Why is it you cant stay high for > 4-6 hours then?

Receptors / Transporters get fed up after that amount of time?
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Well the MDMA becomes metabolized and the effects stop (unless you take more MDMA before you start 'coming down')
 
I am very interested in this topic, since I have noticed a few personal things.
Having more pills within say a 6-12 hour period does make me pretty "messed up" definatly high, but it isn't always pleasant.

Could the actual "love" of MDMA be more because of dopamine than seratonin?

Bilzor, would you be able to shed some more light on this?

hmm, just read that study, heart rate and pupil I would understand, and have experienced, but the high is definatly...different with multiple doses.

Do you have any theories as to why that is?
 
Now we're entering speculation, again, I'm just working from two facts, a) serotonin depletion has never been proven in humans, and b) in people take two doses of MDMA 24 hours apart, the second time is stronger, both in physiological measures, and interoceptive ones, like "liking" and "high".

My speculation goes like this, some people CAN'T roll the second night, they just get speedy, or that kinda nasty messed up. this may reflect true serotonin depletion. This may because they have a low resistance to oxidative stress, (either dietary or genetic).

However, I am very dubious of the serotonin depletion theory of tolerance because of this
MDMA%20depletion.JPG
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See how long it takes serotonin to recover? Serotonin doesn't get anywhere near to normal till about 25 weeks after neurotoxic doses. i.e. if serotonin depletion was to blame, you wouldn't be able to roll for months.

It's also worth nothing that in that paper, it is show that you don't get serotonin depletion until after you've gotten true neurotoxicity (i.e. loss of SERT).

Again, some people can keep on dropping throughout the night (though my feeling is that this is a small number than those who can drop on two consecutive nights). I suspect that the tolerance you see there could be either a form of acute serotonin depletion (or maybe its better to think of it as reduced synthesis due to negative feedback), or receptor downregulation.

But I don't know..
 
BilZ0r said:
^ No, I'm not confusing them, do a search in this forum for the word deplenish. It's here about 100 times, and it's in google about 3000 times. It's already in usage, and people understand what you mean when you say it. Hence, it's a word.

I'm not going to get into some lame as fuck argument about what makes a word, a word. English dictionaries get their entries from words found in common usage, not the other way around. Hence ginormous is a word, googled is a word, and either right now, or pretty soon, deplenish will be a word.
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haha that's fuckin' retarded. since deplenish is a word, what does it mean? does it fall on the replenish side or the deplete side, or is it half-and-half thus not meaning anything?

o btw i got my own word: zumto. 2010 results: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=zumto&btnG=Search. if google says it is a word, it must be, right?
 
BilZ0r said:
My speculation goes like this, some people CAN'T roll the second night, they just get speedy, or that kinda nasty messed up. this may reflect true serotonin depletion. This may because they have a low resistance to oxidative stress, (either dietary or genetic).

However, I am very dubious of the serotonin depletion theory of tolerance because of this

See how long it takes serotonin to recover? Serotonin doesn't get anywhere near to normal till about 25 weeks after neurotoxic doses. i.e. if serotonin depletion was to blame, you wouldn't be able to roll for months.

But I don't know..
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My theory:
-receptor downregulation: due to a "massive" release of serotonin(procentually doesn't have to be much of our total serotonin "supply", like 1 % or something) more than other drugs due to the massive release

-serotonin depletion: only comes in play if you abuse ecstasy, and is the greatest factor in the side-effects(downregulation also comes into play): memory loss, weird sleep patterns, electrical shocks, anxiety etc etc

That's why those side effects take so long to go away, whereas a one-use post depression only takes a week or so.
 
yes drugs dont need to deplete serotonin to have a negative effect on the serotonin system, as was mentioned with receptor downregulation. i read somewher drinking depresses serotonin activity thats part of the depressive feeling that accompanies drinking alcohol. so anything that affects any aspect, the release, utilization etc. of the serotonin system can effect serotonin acting drugs.
 
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