Do drugs of abuse alter the nucleus accumbens permanently?

[Deleted member 137730]

Does anyone know if drugs of abuse permanently alter the way the nucleus accumbens works? Especially if the drugs were used when the brain was still developing.

It seems if it was altered permanently this would leave any ex drug user fucked for life being unable to release dopamine when appropriate. Then the drug user could only get a proper reward through using drugs to stimulate the NA.

true or false?

 

[Sturnam]

Depends on the substance used, how long, and what dose.

But basically, yes it can permanently alter your reward system. This is why there is PAWS (post-acute withdrawal syndrome) that is so hard to beat. No biological stimulus can come close to the drug stimulus. However, I think with lots of time, the neurons can recover, although never fully IIRC.

There's many changes that affect this. There's a review on erowid about this that is really good at explaining all the changes associated with addiction.

 

[pofacedhoe]

i think part of the problem with resisting impulses following giving up long term hard drugs is to do with the prefrontal cortex and the loops that normally run from the nucleus accubens to the prefrontal cortex and back get rewired so that the neucleus accumbens has more control and the prefrontal cortex is less able to inhibit the impulses.

its not just about the reward mechanism its also the loss of strength of the inhibition system that used to keep it controlled. we all have a huge tendency toward reward but our clever human brains inhibit this a lot to help us acheive long term goals.

damage to a far away area may affect another by messing up the excitatory and inhibition loops conecting brain circuits. parkinsons being an obvious example.

amphetamine addiction grossly reduced my ability to control myself in the face of rewarding stimulus.

 

[seep]

It seems if it was altered permanently this would leave any ex drug user fucked for life being unable to release dopamine when appropriate. Then the drug user could only get a proper reward through using drugs to stimulate the NA.

true or false?

You mean besides the fact that its easier to smoke rocks than shovel them?

Everything I've read about those interesting little nerve bundles seems in line with the about-face from functionality that follows binges. But is there documentation of permanent DAMAGE (necrosis) does anyone know? Or is it merely conditioning and habituation.

I've dated several incarnations of the nucleus accumbens. I wonder if there are sex-specific patterns of habituation.

This might be irrelevant, but I'd think that acute hyperthermia in the first three years of life would do tons more organic damage.

**and as for shoveling rocks, I highly recommend it to anyone recovering from chronic addiction. Something about combat in the sun with a pick-ax, a shovel and a mountain of limestone is intensely--what's the word?

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

You mean besides the fact that its easier to smoke rocks than shovel them?

Everything I've read about those interesting little nerve bundles seems in line with the about-face from functionality that follows binges. But is there documentation of permanent DAMAGE (necrosis) does anyone know? Or is it merely conditioning and habituation.

I've dated several incarnations of the nucleus accumbens. I wonder if there are sex-specific patterns of habituation.

This might be irrelevant, but I'd think that acute hyperthermia in the first three years of life would do tons more organic damage.

**and as for shoveling rocks, I highly recommend it to anyone recovering from chronic addiction. Something about combat in the sun with a pick-ax, a shovel and a mountain of limestone is intensely--what's the word?

Exhilirating?

Make that any sort of exercise. It's the most tried and true remedy to minor depression we have, and a pretty good contender for treating major depression, anxiety disorders, and a variety of other mental problems. There's nothing like a good bike ride, especially if it's saving me a hassle or a waste of a car trip, and/or takes me somewhere scenic.

Head trauma or sustained high fever in the first 2 years of life can do permanent brain damage quite easily. The risk decreases steadily and plateaus at 20~21, when the brain is finally fully developed.

It's actually a similar kind of situation with drugs. If people use drugs that greatly change the neuronal firing patterns in the reward loop before their brains are fully formed, there's a good chance those patterns will persist as physical changes once the brain IS fully formed. It's kind of like the difference between sticking a chocolate kiss on top of a finished cupcake, versus on top of one that was in mid-bake. The earlier a kid starts using a drug that messes with their reward pathways, the less likely it is they'll ever be able to remain sober. Like a tree that's grown around a fence, their brains are just conformed to the presence of their drug of choice, and they just can't feel whole without it.

If you ever wondered why I'm such a nazi about recreational drugs (including alcohol and nicotine) being for adults, not kids, this is why.

Fortunately, our brains are more plastic than we often give them credit for. New neurons take a long, long time to regrow (it does happen). Growing new connections between other extant neurons happens far easier, but is still a fairly long term process. Quick changes in receptor sensitivity and density, and neurotransmitter availability, also greatly change the way the brain works, and are very plastic overall, depending on sleep and nutrition of course.

Piggybacking on what pofacedhoe said, it's definitely possible to retrain the PFC to override the NA, by doing mental exercises that strengthen and upregulate its inhibitory functions. (This is what a lot of 12-step programs' dogma is, at the neurological level: PFC repair.) But your chances of success at that depend a lot on whether you can remember a time when your ego reigned over your id (late teenage years for most people who never got addicted to anything before that time.)

 

[swilow]

And at what age do we consider too young? (mainly aimed at you MDAO- I agree with your post). I started using drugs (weed) when I was thirteen, then MDMA, then acid- it wasn't until I was about 18 that I began using meth, ecstasy regularly.

Something that increasingly bothers me is the fact my mum used amphetamines when she was pregnant with me (and she smoked cigs and drank a lot too). I wonder if my reward system was wired incorrectly from birth....

 

[pofacedhoe]

Exhilirating?


It's actually a similar kind of situation with drugs. If people use drugs that greatly change the neuronal firing patterns in the reward loop before their brains are fully formed, there's a good chance those patterns will persist as physical changes once the brain IS fully formed. It's kind of like the difference between sticking a chocolate kiss on top of a finished cupcake, versus on top of one that was in mid-bake. The earlier a kid starts using a drug that messes with their reward pathways, the less likely it is they'll ever be able to remain sober. Like a tree that's grown around a fence, their brains are just conformed to the presence of their drug of choice, and they just can't feel whole without it.


Piggybacking on what pofacedhoe said, it's definitely possible to retrain the PFC to override the NA, by doing mental exercises that strengthen and upregulate its inhibitory functions. (This is what a lot of 12-step programs' dogma is, at the neurological level: PFC repair.) But your chances of success at that depend a lot on whether you can remember a time when your ego reigned over your id (late teenage years for most people who never got addicted to anything before that time.)

so juicy and true! it is very difficult to leave behaviour patterns with short term reward behind when they began during your early teens.

i smoked cannabis when young and drank a lot and that came back into play later. the problem is i have learned drugs are an easy way to change a depressed mood in the now (amphetamine/mephedrone addiction). still i can resist alcohol and pot if they are about but probably not the same way as my mum who never drank/etc. until in her twenties. she has far more self control. and control of my drinking has only been possible since taking small daliy dose of tramadol (150mg) as an antidepressant. the tram has had a huge effect on improving my impulsive mood swings and behaviour

 

[seep]

The earlier a kid starts using a drug that messes with their reward pathways, the less likely it is they'll ever be able to remain sober. Like a tree that's grown around a fence, their brains are just conformed to the presence of their drug of choice, and they just can't feel whole without it...If you ever wondered why I'm such a nazi about recreational drugs (including alcohol and nicotine) being for adults, not kids, this is why...Piggybacking on what pofacedhoe said, it's definitely possible to retrain the PFC to override the NA, by doing mental exercises that strengthen and upregulate its inhibitory functions. (This is what a lot of 12-step programs' dogma is, at the neurological level: PFC repair.) But your chances of success at that depend a lot on whether you can remember a time when your ego reigned over your id (late teenage years for most people who never got addicted to anything before that time.)

Are you exercising poetic license here or is this an actual thing that's been researched? The part I highlighted in boldface pretty much sums up what I've always suspected and this is the first time I've heard it from a voice outside my own personal sconce. The Freudian psychic trinity is a very powerful trope from my point of view. It is reviled by many psychoanalysts but it nevertheless is consistent with the agon I feel inside myself. I used much LSD during my teens, before I had established any consistent and well-wrought sense of self. From my point of view, LSD was midwife to my conscious identity--to whom I perceive myself to be. I don't pity myself, but I'd rather never have put that first little piece of blotter paper with Felix the Cat's picture under my tongue at 15(?). Everything that came before that seems irrelevant now. I have no untainted ego prototype to revert to. Thanks for fleshing out that idea so lucidly, as I had thought it was no more than my private delusion.

But what's one to do if one has no baseline personality to moor himself to?

 

[pofacedhoe]

Are you exercising poetic license here or is this an actual thing that's been researched? The part I highlighted in boldface pretty much sums up what I've always suspected and this is the first time I've heard it from a voice outside my own personal sconce. The Freudian psychic trinity is a very powerful trope from my point of view. It is reviled by many psychoanalysts but it nevertheless is consistent with the agon I feel inside myself. I used much LSD during my teens, before I had established any consistent and well-wrought sense of self. From my point of view, LSD was midwife to my conscious identity--to whom I perceive myself to be. I don't pity myself, but I'd rather never have put that first little piece of blotter paper with Felix the Cat's picture under my tongue at 15(?). Everything that came before that seems irrelevant now. I have no untainted ego prototype to revert to. Thanks for fleshing out that idea so lucidly, as I had thought it was no more than my private delusion.

But what's one to do if one has no baseline personality to moor himself to?

swim in the sea of bordeline tendencies- maybe you are just a changable personality, i know i am. the big thing though is that without learning early self control its just too easy for you to give in to desires, freud is shit (sorry but he talks bollock as do all psychoanalysts for lots of money) self control is something we learn and work at (but can loose just as easy by not excercising it).

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Are you exercising poetic license here or is this an actual thing that's been researched? The part I highlighted in boldface pretty much sums up what I've always suspected and this is the first time I've heard it from a voice outside my own personal sconce. The Freudian psychic trinity is a very powerful trope from my point of view.

Yeah, I found it a fitting metaphor. I'm not a Freudian, but I thought his construct brought the point home well.

There is indeed research to back up what I said, and reflects what I was taught about the subject. If substance abuse begins before the PFC becomes myelinated enough to override the base drives of the limbic system, the prognosis for recovery is poor, and use tends to be an all-or-nothing thing from then on.

Can a substance abuser ever transition into using his substance of choice moderately? Only if he ever was a moderate user to begin with.

I first used amphetamine when I was first prescribed Adderall at 26. I liked it very, very much, but I took care not to abuse it for the first 2 years. Then I slipped into a pattern of abusive use for a month. Since then, I've been able to resume my former pattern of no more than 20mg, no more than once a month, if even that, and only for academic purposes. If I had first been prescribed adderall at 15, I doubt I'd be able to keep it in the house without binging on it.

But what's one to do if one has no baseline personality to moor himself to?

Develop one. It's never too late to find new things to be passionate about, and people who share those passions. I once knew a former alcoholic who immersed himself fully in golf, and gained a newfound self respect he never thought he was capable of, and a new and better group of friends taboot. Change something big about your life (like the place you live, for example), try something you've always wanted to try but never dared to before (not a drug).

I'd say the chance of you integrating highly habit-forming drugs into your new life in a healthy way is probably slim. But the chance of you getting a lot yet out of life is excellent.

 

[hugo24]

And at what age do we consider too young? (mainly aimed at you MDAO- I agree with your post). I started using drugs (weed) when I was thirteen, then MDMA, then acid- it wasn't until I was about 18 that I began using meth, ecstasy regularly.

Something that increasingly bothers me is the fact my mum used amphetamines when she was pregnant with me (and she smoked cigs and drank a lot too). I wonder if my reward system was wired incorrectly from birth....

Yeah thats probably the case more often than thought of,and it not only has to involve drugs your parents used.Like"why are some born with a permanently altered nucleus accumbens?".Of course theres genetics...but then there are aquired patterns of behaviours,what if those altered your nucleus accumbens?Or is that just guilt-projection of drug abusers