DMT saved me

[Xorkoth]

Ismene has strong opinions on this subject, but we don't all have to agree. I don't think ultimate enlightenment is possible for humans, however myself and many, many other people have had permanent changes related to realizing important things about consciousness, life and the universe which were attained through psychedelic trips. The first time I tripped it was on mushrooms and I woke up from my life and into the universal consciousness and experienced the oneness of all things. Such an experience will change you, if you have it. My life changed completely from that moment on. The way I see things, the way I think, the way I believe, my sense of spirituality... I did a 180 and it was the direct result of my +4, life-changing peak experience, plus my work afterwards to understand it and integrate it into myself. It's my truth, nothing anyone could say could convince me that I wasn't changed dramatically as a result of this experience in a positive, wholesome way that has aided my level of awareness and understanding. No one could tell me otherwise because that IS what happened. It was my experience and thus, only I am qualified to make that assessment.

 

[pi_irple]

I'm new to posting on bluelight, I've read many threads but never posted and don't know where to post a question I have but maybe instead of creating a new thread I can just slip it into this thread since the topic of matter is similar.

As of today I've tripped on both mushrooms and lsd many times. But like 2 years ago right after I started smoking weed I got offered to try dmt. So I was with a friend that said they did the dmt last night and tripped. So we crushed it and sprinkled it on top of weed and I tried to smoke it. I had little smoking experience and this was the first time smoking out of a bowl. I took only two hits, the second hit gave me a feeling where my heart was beating fast and then after like 5 minutes it stopped. I didn't get any visuals or altered thinking patterns like I do with mushrooms or lsd. About an hour later when I got home I felt really good like super refreshed and optimistic. I know the FAQs say you guys can't tell me what it was, but I'm sure someone can take a guess. And it's not anti HR cause this happened 2 years ago and I just want to hear peoples opinions. Do you think I didn't inhale enough, or it may have been methamphetamine? The only reason I'm thinking that is because recently I did MDMA and the come up felt very similar, but the plateau of the MDMA felt like I was actually high. I know MDMA is somewhat similar to amphetamine cause it's a stimulant.

To the OP personally I don't like weed because the day after I smoke I feel lazy and tired and I like to be productive. Plus it always gives me a rush and I don't like the feeling, the only part I like about weed is the smooth comedown.

 

[Ismene]

myself and many, many other people have had permanent changes related to realizing important things about consciousness, life and the universe which were attained through psychedelic trips.

I agree X - mushrooms permanently improve my depression and they give me experiences of beauty and euphoria that I treasure. I just question how far you can carry that into working a hard, gruelling job surrounded by people you can't stand. Paying the bills and tripping on mushrooms involve different parts of your psyche. I don't think that if you have an insightful trip that you become enlightened when digging a ditch the morning after. There's no single viewpoint on life - it varies depending on what you're doing.

 

[max_freakout]

Personally, I believe that "enlightenment", commonly, is a side effect of what starts out as recreational drug use.

this ^ is very accurate

Society labels entheogens as recreational drugs, without revealing their use as triggers of mystical experience, ego death/rebirth and religious transformation (metaphysical entlightenment). So people start using the drugs with the idea that they are for fun/recreation, then unexpectedly stumble across their religious potential for mental worldmodel transformation which leaves them permanently changed.

The altered state of consciousness is temporary, but the mental transformation/enlightenment is permanent.

 

[max_freakout]

sorry for not being more clear, but i was referring to the genuine enlightenment that is attained without drugs, the one that doesnt go away.

drug free enlightenment doesnt go away, but it doesnt come either; it doesnt exist. The only "genuine" enlightenment is the psychedelic kind. Both Christ and Buddha ate the magical sacrament prior to achieving transcendence

drug-free enlightenment is a lie that derives from drug-war politics of the modern era. The only way to access the transformational mystical experience which reveals metaphysical Truth is by taking drugs. Very unwelcome news to the egoic worldmodel....

 

[Fishface]

drug free enlightenment doesnt go away, but it doesnt come either; it doesnt exist. The only "genuine" enlightenment is the psychedelic kind. Both Christ and Buddha ate the magical sacrament prior to achieving transcendence

drug-free enlightenment is a lie that derives from drug-war politics of the modern era. The only way to access the transformational mystical experience which reveals metaphysical Truth is by taking drugs. Very unwelcome news to the egoic worldmodel....

What complete and utter bollocks.

 

[Xorkoth]

I agree. Drug-free enlightenment is entirely possible, it's just uncommon in our culture, and much more difficult to achieve. Drugs can provide a quick shortcut but can also lead to the opposite of enlightenment if care isn't taken to moderate and critical thinking isn't applied liberally to your experiences afterwards.

I'm not saying one is better than the other either. Using psychedelics as a shortcut to mystical states is a fully valid and valuable thing. But it's not the only way. Just the easiest. And that is the reason it can also be dangerous, if care isn't used.

I agree X - mushrooms permanently improve my depression and they give me experiences of beauty and euphoria that I treasure. I just question how far you can carry that into working a hard, gruelling job surrounded by people you can't stand. Paying the bills and tripping on mushrooms involve different parts of your psyche. I don't think that if you have an insightful trip that you become enlightened when digging a ditch the morning after. There's no single viewpoint on life - it varies depending on what you're doing.

I don't think it has to be absolute though. Yes, it will still suck to dig ditches all day, but that doesn't mean a peak psychedelic experience can't still make it easier to put such a thing into perspective, to let physical and emotional suffering roll off you more easily. And to allow someone to still realize, while suffering and toiling, that we're all one and that life is beautiful.

I will admit that as I sank deeper and deeper into opiate addiction over previous years and my relationship got more and more toxic, it became incredibly difficult to FEEL the things I know to be true based on my peak psychedelic experiences. But the belief and understanding were still there. It's just that over time, the pain in my life made it difficult to feel.

 

[max_freakout]

Drug-free enlightenment is entirely possible

any definition of "enlightenment" that does not involve drugs, also does not involve intense altered-state experience (because drugs are the only ergonomic route of access to the altered states). So there are two fundamentally different versions of enlightenment:

1 - altered state enlightenment
2 - ordinary (non-altered) state enlightenment

The altered-state version of enlightenment is the kind that we see abundantly on forums like this one, people will say something like: "I took acid and the experience i had caused a deep personal change, it changed the way i think, changed the way i understand reality etc". This is a fairly common occurence among psychedelic drug-users, it is easy to identify and provide a basic definition, - ie altered state enlightenment is when a person's perspective on life is radically/profoundly and permanently transformed during the course of some hours of intense tripping. The light of higher understanding is switched on in the inner depths of the psychedelic experience - en-light.

What exactly is the alternative version of enlightenment to this that doesnt involve taking drugs? Where can we observe instances of this alternative version of enlightenment? Is this kind of enlightenment available to us? Does this kind of enlightenment really exist? Or is drug-free enlightenment just an artificial fabrication?

Drug-free enlightenment is nothing more than a hollow drug-war forgery, a very recent invention by the drug-war mentality to attempt to block the knowledge of entheogens at the core of religion.

Using psychedelics as a shortcut to mystical states is a fully valid and valuable thing. But it's not the only way. Just the easiest.

How else can we experience intense mystical states, without drugs? Don't fall victim to pernicious drug-war propaganda lies - egodeath.com/ShortcutFallacy.htm

Calling drugs a "shortcut" is just a rhetorical sly move that has tricked you. Calling drugs a "shortcut" to mystical states is like calling alcohol a shortcut to drunkenness, or breathing oxygen a shortcut to remaining alive. The only reason to call drugs a "shortcut" is to diminish them as much as possible to distort their position as the only ergonomic (easy, on tap, for everybody, as opposed to rare and exclusive) route to mystical experiences and the potential for metaphysical enlightenment.

 

[Xorkoth]

I have met people who have achieved the same conclusions about life, the universe and consciousness without ever having taken psychedelics. And what about trascendental meditation? There exist people who have never taken psychedelics who are able to access mystical altered states without drugs and who I believe have achieved a greater level of enlightenment than I ever will. Of course this takes a lifetime of dedication and discipline, and that's why it's so rare. I know someone who, as a pretty young person, had a dream in which they had an intensely psychedelic experience that changed their life forever.

I call using drugs a shortcut because it's a relatively easy way to suddenly thrust yourself into a mystical state and bypass that lifetime of discipline. That doesn't detract from its value, I don't use "shortcut" as a derogatory term. I use "shortcut" because it's also possible to achieve these states through discipline by training yourself to slip the bounds of your ego through meditation and related practices.

Drug-free enlightenment is nothing more than a hollow drug-war forgery, a very recent invention by the drug-war mentality to attempt to block the knowledge of entheogens at the core of religion.

This is incorrect. Spiritual systems/religions have existed for thousands of years in which meditation and related practices exist with the aim of achieving enlightenment without drugs. People have been achieving it for thousands of years in these ways (ancient hinduism, buddhism, etc). I agree that there is an attempt by to prohibition forces to discredit the use of entheogens in spirituality, but that doesn't mean that enlightenment is impossible without psychedelics.

 

[Ismene]

I don't think it has to be absolute though. Yes, it will still suck to dig ditches all day, but that doesn't mean a peak psychedelic experience can't still make it easier to put such a thing into perspective, to let physical and emotional suffering roll off you more easily.

Isn't that a subtly different thing tho - the peak experience gives you enough euphoria to get you through the bad times and gives you hope looking forward to the next peak experience. That's definately how I feel. I'm just not sure about being able to carry the lessons of a peak experience into everyday life.

It's just that over time, the pain in my life made it difficult to feel.

I think that's the key - how much pain you're in. When times were good I found zen and reading the tao was enough for me to get by.When I had a few tragedies in my life that became utterly useless and mushrooms were the only thing that helped. But I do tend to think that you have to be on the drug to really experience it tho. It's like someone saying "Carry the lessons of an orgasm into everyday life". An orgasm is an orgasm - there's not much you can do about carrying it into everyday life.

 

[Ismene]

There exist people who have never taken psychedelics who are able to access mystical altered states without drugs and who I believe have achieved a greater level of enlightenment than I ever will. Of course this takes a lifetime of dedication and discipline, and that's why it's so rare.

Do you really buy that X? The old "if you sweep the ashram for 60 years and follow our system you'll become enlightened?". I suppose no-one wants to spend 60 years doing something and then admit to themselves at the end it was a complete waste of time. That's what I found - I studied all the eastern ideas and they all failed me when the shit hit the fan. I'm glad I learned it was pointless early in life I suppose.

I use "shortcut" because it's also possible to achieve these states through discipline by training yourself to slip the bounds of your ego through meditation and related practices.

I don't think it is. I think I could meditate and study Buddhism for the rest of my life and never experience what mushrooms give me. I think mushrooms are vastly superior and better than any religion.

 

[Xorkoth]

No, I am not saying that I get euphoria from psychedelics and the promise of euphoria the next time keeps me going. I'm saying that due to my peak experience(s), my entire conception of what it is to be alive and be a living thing in this universe changed, and that has made it much easier for me to put suffering in its place and continue to see the beauty in the world, even when things aren't going well. It changed my sense of perspective in reality in a way I have never forgotten. This is what I have taken from it into my sober life.

The orgasm analogy is interesting but flawed I think... an orgasm is a simple physical/chemical response to the culmination of sex, it contains no more substance than that. It doesn't make me experience life differently, it makes me feel good and fulfilled on an animal level for a brief time, as it is intended to do in order to provide a drive to reproduce. A psychedelic experience is an experience which contains dramatic mental/spiritual content with the capacity to drastically alter my entire worldview. It goes far beyond the level of a chemical/hormonal release in response to the method of mammalian reproduction.

Do you really buy that X? The old "if you sweep the ashram for 60 years and follow our system you'll become enlightened?". I suppose no-one wants to spend 60 years doing something and then admit to themselves at the end it was a complete waste of time. That's what I found - I studied all the eastern ideas and they all failed me when the shit hit the fan. I'm glad I learned it was pointless early in life I suppose.

Yes I do. Like any organized spiritual system/religion, these systems have been used for social control and bastardized at various points throughout history, by various people. But I don't think that's all there is to them. I do believe it is possible to reach transcendent states through the use of meditation without drugs. No religion is necessary either, just discipline and practice, and perhaps a guide to help.

Note that I also don't have the inclination to pursue such a thing for a significant portion of my life. I choose to achieve these states through psychedelics.

 

[Vurtual]

..Drug-free enlightenment is nothing more than a hollow drug-war forgery, a very recent invention by the drug-war mentality to attempt to block the knowledge of entheogens at the core of religion...

What about sensory deprivaton tanks - pretty hallucinatory. I'm told by reliable people that meditation at the deepest level can give experiences that sound pretty much identical with the psychedelic peak (percieving the whole interconnected universe as one, oobe etc). It's no mistake the language used to describe psychedelics draws from spiritual/mystical traditions - it's because they've been doing this shit for thousands of years, with and without actual drugs. Just the same way as some shamanic cultures have actual psychedelic plants to pick, and others have to make do with tobacco or hanging themselves by their nipples for a week, so some other cultures have accessed these same states by more subtle testing of the faculties (sitting, mantras, staring at mandalas etc). They're all on the same spectrum - the resulting neurotransmitters are probably the same, just different catalysts (and different amounts of effort needed).

Psychedelic drugs just block switches in your neural network and turn up the gain till it feeds back (or something) - the content and meaning come from novel connections of what's already in the network, and must be accessible in other ways (our brains are fairly re-wirable via intense experience as well as drugs).

 

[Ismene]

It's no mistake the language used to describe psychedelics draws from spiritual/mystical traditions - it's because they've been doing this shit for thousands of years, with and without actual drugs.

Just because some of the language might be similar doesn't mean the experience is. Language is pretty limited when describing ineffable states. I've never found meditation even remotely like tripping on mushrooms. And I know the theory is "Oh, you have to do it for 70 years first" but that is complete horseshit.

 

[Vurtual]

But as i said, people who i think are completely reliable have described such things to me (not monks, or people trying to make me join anything). It's also been described over and over in many different texts; and it's pretty hard to not see the links between psychedelics and general 'transcendent' experiences as described. As i said, the magic of the trip is from your brain, not the drug - that's just the catalyst (or amplifier); i've experienced key aspects of the psychedelic state when non-drugged enough to realise this (eg boundless joy, love, feelings of oneness, empathy, visual distortions etc.).

Just think of sensory deprivation - that definitely trips you out with no drugs (or rather accesses the magic in your mind in another way). Meditation in its various forms is basically a form of sensory deprivation or endurance, which takes practice to get right; and lots of practice to get 'peak experiences' out of it. The shortcut chemical version probably suits us westerners better anyway (i know it does me) - but the cliche is true: easy come easy go.

 

[Xorkoth]

Just because some of the language might be similar doesn't mean the experience is. Language is pretty limited when describing ineffable states. I've never found meditation even remotely like tripping on mushrooms. And I know the theory is "Oh, you have to do it for 70 years first" but that is complete horseshit.

How would you know? Have you ever done it for 70 years?

That's an exaggeration anyway, no one says it's necessary to do it for 70 years, it just requires a lot of practice and gradually going deeper. If someone had been doing it for 70 years, I'm sure they'd be better at going deeper than someone who had been doing it less time, but it doesn't take 70 years to achieve a significant level. I'm not trying to say the experience is the same as tripping, just that similar enlightening experiences can be had through non drug-related means. Are all the people who claim to have had experiences with meditation deluded or lying? There are MANY more accounts than just those of religious monks and the like, often entirely unconnected to religion.

 

[Ismene]

No, but we know the Tibetan buddhists - who studied buddha for 900 years while they ran a brutal feudal slavemaster state. If they caught a peasant pinching a goat to survive, they'd gouge his eyes out and cut off his hands. So that's the old "do not covet possessions" buddhist law out the window right there. More "Do not covet possessions unless it is thy fucking goat, and then thy must get medieval on someones ass".

I'm sure all those centuries of tibetan monks could've quoted you Buddha chapter and verse - but their everyday life revolved around kicking Tibetans up the arse if they didn't fetch the water quick enough. Enlightened beings? Not as far as I'm concerned.

Are all the people who claim to have had experiences with meditation deluded or lying?

I prefer to look at someones actions rather than their words. Like the Dali Lama never mentions anything about buddhists hoarding money - but the first thing he did when leaving Tibet was fill a few helicopters full of gold.

I'm sure someone meditating experiences something - it's just nothing I'm interested in. It's like Dr Ruth's pussy - I'm sure there's something down there that pee that comes out but you wouldn't recognise it.

Mushrooms are a whole different thing to meditation.

 

[Ismene]

Meditation in its various forms is basically a form of sensory deprivation or endurance, which takes practice to get right; and lots of practice to get 'peak experiences' out of it. The shortcut chemical version probably suits us westerners better anyway (i know it does me) - but the cliche is true: easy come easy go.

I think it's a 50-50 thing between the mushrooms and the brain tho. You can't meditate your way to it - it's like trying to fly by flapping your wings. You need the aeroplane.

 

[Bare_head]

Still i agree with ismene, without my first mushroom experience i dnt think i woule be the same person in terms of being open minded

 

[Vurtual]

No, but we know the Tibetan buddhists - who studied buddha for 900 years while they ran a brutal feudal slavemaster state...

But buddhism is a multi-layered tradition; it's a set of principles laid out by buddha which you're free to interpret any way you like - it's not buddha's fault how things might have gone after him - he was very much against an organised religion. (and i think your version of tibetan buddhism misses a lot of pretty cool babies in the undoubted feudal bathwater (a lot of shamanic heritage found its way in (yes i know the bon po were oppressed)). Organised religions become nasty power structures because of social/economic factors; religion is just one of many ways this grubby reality is expressed - not really the religion's fault, as this stuff always develops after and in spite of the contents of the 'revelation'.

You don't have to join anything to think about and apply buddhist teachings, and buddha would have probably encouraged you not to.

As for it being 50/50 with brain/mushrooms, what about the salt tank, is that 50/50? And if it is, what about the sensory deprivation/manipulation practiced by meditators and mystics? Serotonin agonists block up neural inputs which somehow makes them feedback and turn up the gain (possibly by a similar process as video feedback can produce trippy patterns); dissociatives do similar sense blocking allowing internal signals to predominate - can you not see that this could be thought of as the same process as sensory deprivation, with the blocking further up the chain, but still resulting in the amplification of internal processes? (the 'meaning-finder' is turned up as the sense data is reduced)

Medititation is obviously not the same as mushrooms, but it's the same mountain top they both provide routes to (the plus four, ego loss, nibbana or whatever)