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Dissociatives-- any noticable long term effects?

Mongrel

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Aug 4, 2011
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I've read alot about the risks of prolonged ket, nitrous, & dxm use. I've never really expiramented with any of these(except for a bottle of cough syrup, once). I'd like to know what kind of long term negative or neutral thought patterns (& noticable neurotoxicity) I can expect from expiramentation.
I intend to use such things in moderation, just looking for a clue in on how much (if any) dissociatives will play in on my thought patterns.
What are some of the pros & cons to the dissociative headspace, both during & after the effects?
 
Pros:

Increased personal insight
Amazing visuals
Music/Movement euphoria

Cons:

Confusion
Nausea
Paranoia
Anxiety (possible panic attacks if you take too much)
A general sense of "going insane"
Loss of bodily/mental control

I can only speak for DXM, but it's one of those drugs that you get out what you put into it. It's definitely not a great recreational drug, but it can do wonders for aiding in meditation and objective self-examination. It can be incredibly intense and difficult if you go in over your head, but all of my best insights have occurred during bad trips, and the resulting catharsis of a great insight tends to make all of the difficulty worth it. In pretty much any given DXM trip, you can expect the most intense effects starting at T+1:00 and usually lasts for about an hour. After the come-up, the trip is much more suited for recreation. You hit a "plateau" where all of the intense, confusing aspects of the trip just suddenly disappear and you're left fairly clear-headed, although still quite confused (ymmv). I almost always have an afterglow the next morning, as long as I've allowed myself enough time to sleep. Be sure to drink plenty of water and take the DXM with something acidic (orange juice is a good choice, or you can take a shot of lemon juice after you've downed your syrup/pills) in order to keep your stomach at a good pH so you don't get sick (although sometimes, there's nothing you can do). A lot of people also take DXM with Benadryl or some other non non-drowsy antihistamine (don't use a non-drowsy antihistamine).

Dissociatives are great for working out inner issues, as they effectively separate your consciousness from physical and emotional restraints, but I would advise against long-term recreational use. I tend to trip two or three times a month, and haven't noticed any neurological or physical side-effects from my use, but I try to take care of myself before and after a trip (vitamins, water, exercise). In fact, I feel much better than I did before I started using dissociatives, at least psychologically. Most people will tell you that DXM is fairly harmless on the body, and that the worst thing for you isn't the DXM itself, but all of the sugars and binding agents found in syrups (not to mention other active ingredients in the medicine). Just be smart, and start with low doses (nothing higher than a second plateau for your first trip. Even I have a hard time with anything above the second).
 
Dissociative headspace while under acute effects of drug: confusion, decrease in ability to delineate between discrete objects, ego dissolution, changes in depth perception/objects not appearing the correct size, time dilation, marked antidepressant effect, mental impairment leading to odd thought tangents. Movies/tv shows may also seem to relate to you on a very personal level, it can be easy to forget the screen and think things are "real" or at least uncannily prescient. If you go so far as to hole, well, you'll have to see for yourself, it's like nothing else. =D

Effects on thoughts after acute effects: Usually there is an afterglow the next day, you'll be slightly out of it/ dissociated mentally, and feel very optimistic and positive about things. For me this lasts ~18 hours after the high ends, though my first time doing 4-meo-pcp (which was a weekend binge actually), had me after-glowing bordering on still slightly impaired for 4 days.

Other than that: Dissociatives can be quite psychologically addictive, so doing them too frequently might lead you to become completely obsessed, and possibly even lead to some delusional thoughts. Why are they psychologically addictive (imo)? Unlike serotogenic psychedelics, dissociatives tend to provide a more consistent experience, and this experience is much more escapist in nature than that of psychs. You will be disengaged from the world, problems and external things will recede into unimportance (because of this I more readily compare them to opiates than psychs but a lot of PDers feel differently), if you take things far enough you can get rid of the self, external world, and time entirely.


Also, to disagree with mcgrunge (it's more a ymmv type thing, but I figure it's good to hear different perspectives).

I'd say confusion is a pro, or at least completely inseparable from the decreased cognizance that is directly responsible for many of the enjoyable aspects of dissociatives. Also, I find dissociatives to be anxiolytic and paranoia free.
 
Some great insights =D These responses were really well put. Looking forward to the Kat tomorrow ;)
 
Heh, if you can get dxm only syrup at the 99cent store, no reason not to be masochistic!

Oh, and for physical effects of many dissociatives, especially with high doses: LOTS of vertigo, possibly vomiting (dph can help or herb,which tends to potentiate the drugs so it's a great idea in general), motor coordination impairment.
 
Also, to disagree with mcgrunge (it's more a ymmv type thing, but I figure it's good to hear different perspectives).

I'd say confusion is a pro, or at least completely inseparable from the decreased cognizance that is directly responsible for many of the enjoyable aspects of dissociatives. Also, I find dissociatives to be anxiolytic and paranoia free.

Oh no, I totally agree. It's like looking at the world from an entirely different perspective. I just find that at higher doses, the confusion can be very strong, and if you're not ready for it, it can be really scary. My last third plateau attempt was basically me having panic attacks for the entire come-up every time I moved my head. It was like being paralyzed while slowly losing contact with your body; a common feature of bad DXM trips is a sense of impending death. It's never wise to discount this drug's potential for being really terrifying, and some people handle it worse than others.

I recently introduced two friends to DXM (400mg), both about the same weight (160) and with a similar fortitude for drugs (did lot's of 'em) and fairly similar psychological profiles (both kinda crazy), and while one only experienced euphoria and mental acuity, the other laid in the bathroom for two hours, vomiting and wishing he were dead. I think it takes a very specific kind of person to be able to enjoy DXM trips, and the general consensus of this board seems to confirm this.
 
mcgrunge said:
Oh no, I totally agree. It's like looking at the world from an entirely different perspective. I just find that at higher doses, the confusion can be very strong, and if you're not ready for it, it can be really scary. My last third plateau attempt was basically me having panic attacks for the entire come-up every time I moved my head. It was like being paralyzed while slowly losing contact with your body; a common feature of bad DXM trips is a sense of impending death. It's never wise to discount this drug's potential for being really terrifying, and some people handle it worse than others.

I recently introduced two friends to DXM (400mg), both about the same weight (160) and with a similar fortitude for drugs (did lot's of 'em) and fairly similar psychological profiles (both kinda crazy), and while one only experienced euphoria and mental acuity, the other laid in the bathroom for two hours, vomiting and wishing he were dead. I think it takes a very specific kind of person to be able to enjoy DXM trip

Ah yes, the confusion can be overpowering, I've spent many an hour just kind of lying around on the floor feeling confused on dissociatives, usually 4-meo-pcp due to its long duration (I had set down my ipod to go to the bathroom, or if after I lost it, logged out of the computer and couldn't figure out how to log back in, or just went to lie down for a second and was unable to think clearly enough to get up and do something). Haven't had a straight up DXM 3rd plateau trip in quite a while (since before I lost my ipod actually, high dose DXM leads to me mostly listening to music with a sleepmask on).

Personally I've almost always found the sense of being dead/dying to be a good thing, if around peak experience, if earlier in the comeup, or comedown, concurrent with crazy nausea and vertigo it can definitely be unpleasant. Hooray for those of us lucky enough to enjoy DXM though.;)

Oh, and if the OP will forgive me for digressing from the topic at hand, what (if any) drugs do you enjoy in combo with DXM or any other dissociatives you've tried? I think cannibanoids are crucial for mitigating nausea (especially when dealing with 8 oz's of cough syrup) and potentiation, which is a common enough position. But towards the middle or end of the peak I also like to throw in a gaba-ergic, GHB/GBL is amazing, but booze works fine (LOL, I watched a movie in a low third plateau while drunk and stoned once, had absolutely no idea what was happening but it seemed amusing and significant). Usually don't like mixing psychs with my dissociatives, but 2c-e is a good choice when I'm in the mood.
 
Depends on what you mean by long-term, and what drugs are being ingested. PCP and MK-801 have shown to have neurotoxic effects in repeated use and high doses, not to mention the potential for psychotic effects from strong DRI acting dissociatives like PCP. Ketamine in chronic use has seen to induce bladder issues, which can be painful and I believe can take a long time to recovery from or persist chronically. Psychologically one can become mental addicted to dissociatives which can lead to the dismantling of ones life, and the intensity of such is based on how far the user/addicted mind lets it, this including ketamine. Dissociatives can also cause cognitive impairment (though not permanent unless there are destructive neurotoxic properties at work due to the chemicals particular makeup), particularly in memory formation/recall and speech. DXM ime shows this more than ketamine, or any of the other dissociatives I've tried, but DXM's cognitive impairment can be reversed (even with controlled use of dissociatives due to their ability to cause LTP [long term potential] on glutamatergic ionotropic channels, essentially playing an arborist on dendrite trees and building larger quantities of there ionotropic channels [receptors]). Really though, in occasional use (which one should really practice in the name of harm-reduction) dissociatives can be quite begin, and potentially have beneficial effects. Ketamine has been seen to have high efficiency in treating depression, which many research articles recently have been showing. NMDA-antagonist are also being investigated in other realms outside of depression and anesthesia, like for dementia, ADD, anxiety, opioid dependency, amphetamine tolerance preventative and reluctance, smoking cessation aid, alcohol cessation aid, etc. Google is your friend.

Now, any RC dissociative like 3-meo-pcp, 4-meo-pcp, and methoxetamine are not researched fully, or hardly at all and need to be treated with up most caution. Lets not pretend that any dissociative/NMDA-antagonist is completely safe, especially those that are research chemicals.
 
(since before I lost my ipod actually, high dose DXM leads to me mostly listening to music with a sleepmask on).

Darkness and music are a must for a DXM trip.
but booze works fine (LOL, I watched a movie in a low third plateau while drunk and stoned once, had absolutely no idea what was happening but it seemed amusing and significant).

In the name of harm reduction, it should be said that it is quite dangerous mixing CNS depressants with DXM. I personally would never mix alcohol with DXM, or really anything else for that matter except for cannabis and diphenhydramine, which is another must for a full DXM experience.

Pro Tip: Want a good trip but want to consume less cough medicine? Drink an entire bottle of White (must be white) Grapefruit juice. In my experience, White Grapefruit juice can potentiate the effects of a trip by the equivalent of consuming 75 - 150 mg more DXM. When I described my last third plateau experience, I had drank an entire 1.5 liter bottle prior to the trip. My initial dose was one that I have never had a problem with, but the GFJ pushed the trip over the edge and into some scary places. So be ready for that if you decide to try it.
 
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Great discussion here. While we're on the subject of dissociatives, anyone know anything about the psychopharmacology of "Other" dissociatives? Like why Salvinorin A & other Kappa Opiod Receptor Agonists cause dissociation & hallucinations?
Certain GABAergic agonists are also dissociating from what I've read (Muscimol, ether, even ethanol to an extent).

& what of the Sigma receptors? I've read DXM is a sigma agonist at a certain dose range, & that Noscapine, an alkaloid in the opium poppy, is a sigma agonist, but I't's effects as a dissociative being disputed.

I find this subject very interesting, I'm curious as to why certain dissociative states are composed of different visuals & sensory phenomenon.
 
Call me a purist, but I only consider NMDA antagonists to be Dissociatives (a category of drugs, I normally do not capitalize it), though certainly other drugs can be dissociative (an adjective), e.g. cannabis, psychedelics, and others. There is no substantial degree of similarity between kappa opioid agonists and NMDA antagonists IME, the same goes with either of those drugs and the GABAergic hallucinogens (which some try to throw in with the deliriants). I have no idea why people are so keen to put the more uncommon hallucinogens into classes characterized by completely different methods of pharmacological action, it is not only misleading, but probably leads to the neglect of these classes. Who's going to explore muscimol and the z-hypnotics' hallucinogenic potential if we say they're deliriant (which they're not), or call them dissociatives? Surely they'd just be considered shit next to the NMDA antagonists since they're not producing the effects one expects when consuming a dissociative. These drugs produce unique effects by disparate methods, and are all worth considering on their own merits.


is quite dangerous mixing CNS depressants with DXM
Not to act against the interests of HR, but I have never experienced any significant respiratory depression on any dissociative I've tried in sub-hole doses (can't exactly check when in one, obviously). Of course, I've been relatively cautious with doses, but I think the dangers are exaggerated, unless I am unusual in this lack of respiratory depression. Then again, I'm unhealthily comfortable with mixing downers as it is, so take this with a grain of salt and be cautious.
 
I can only speak for DXM, because that's the only dissociative I have experience with. Having used DXM countless times, I will say that after really high doses, I will sometimes end up with auditory hallucinations for a week or so. Nothing terrible, mostly just hearing my name being called when there's nothing there. But I haven't noticed any cognitive impairment or anything, even after years of reasonably frequent use. Of course, there is always the possibility of psychological addiction, but that also has a lot to do with how addictive your personality is and the frequency of your use.

EDIT: And I agree with NKB - I've never noticed respiratory depression with DXM. I've mixed DXM and downers on many occasions and never really had a problem, but I suppose it's best to be err on the side of caution.
 
EDIT: And I agree with NKB - I've never noticed respiratory depression with DXM. I've mixed DXM and downers on many occasions and never really had a problem, but I suppose it's best to be err on the side of caution.


Oh, what do you like combining with it (the DXM using population is small as it is, and the portion of it that combines with downers even smaller, so I'd like to learn others preferences), if you don't mind my asking?


Also on topic of long term effects, while I'm not sure if it was caused by the frequent dissociative use, daily GBL use, or some combination, but I was pretty much stuck in a state of derealization for a few months last year during my depressive 4-meo-pcp/GBL/O-desmethyltramadol poly-drug abuse crazy fun times period. This stopped after I quit everything for a month. Might have reappeared during dissociative binges since then, maybe...
 
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Call me a purist, but I only consider NMDA antagonists to be Dissociatives (a category of drugs, I normally do not capitalize it), though certainly other drugs can be dissociative (an adjective), e.g. cannabis, psychedelics, and others. There is no substantial degree of similarity between kappa opioid agonists and NMDA antagonists IME, the same goes with either of those drugs and the GABAergic hallucinogens (which some try to throw in with the deliriants). I have no idea why people are so keen to put the more uncommon hallucinogens into classes characterized by completely different methods of pharmacological action, it is not only misleading, but probably leads to the neglect of these classes. Who's going to explore muscimol and the z-hypnotics' hallucinogenic potential if we say they're deliriant (which they're not), or call them dissociatives? Surely they'd just be considered shit next to the NMDA antagonists since they're not producing the effects one expects when consuming a dissociative. These drugs produce unique effects by disparate methods, and are all worth considering on their own merits.

Would you mind if I PM'd you on this matter? I'd like to discuss this more in depth & would like to avoid starting an excessive amount of threads on the subject.

Also on topic of long term effects, while I'm not sure if it was caused by the frequent dissociative use, daily GBL use, or some combination, but I was pretty much stuck in a state of derealization for a few months last year during my depressive 4-meo-pcp/GBL/O-desmethyltramadol poly-drug abuse crazy fun times period. This stopped after I quit everything for a month. Might have reappeared during dissociative binges since then, maybe...

I feel like I have a bit of derealization/depersonalization from my psychedelic use & HPPD, nothing too uncomfortable though. I feel like HPPD has some special benefits, like each trip is a perceptual upgrade in the long run. Sometimes my vision's blurry, but other than that I kind of enjoy making my ceiling move by staring at it or catching a glimpse of some CEVs with my eyes shut. Smoking Cannabis has been very trip like thanks to my past expierences & I've come to gravely love the little green weed because of it's atypical psychedelic & dissociative aspects.

Any HPPD symptoms I can expect from dissociatives? I'm hoping they're worthwhile =D
 
Would you mind if I PM'd you on this matter? I'd like to discuss this more in depth & would like to avoid starting an excessive amount of threads on the subject.

Certainly, feel free to. Though my experience in some classes is extremely limited, which may not have been reflected in my bold statement.


I feel like I have a bit of derealization/depersonalization from my psychedelic use & HPPD, nothing too uncomfortable though. I feel like HPPD has some special benefits, like each trip is a perceptual upgrade in the long run. Sometimes my vision's blurry, but other than that I kind of enjoy making my ceiling move by staring at it or catching a glimpse of some CEVs with my eyes shut. Smoking Cannabis has been very trip like thanks to my past expierences & I've come to gravely love the little green weed because of it's atypical psychedelic & dissociative aspects.

Any HPPD symptoms I can expect from dissociatives? I'm hoping they're worthwhile =D

Not that I can think of, during the afterglow period I'd certainly expect HPPD symptoms to be amplified, but other than that I wouldn't expect anything major. Actually doing other drugs during the afterglow may lead to some serious dissociated/psychedlicized thinking beyond what those drugs would normally cause, so I'd encourage trying it! (serious derealization is pretty bad though, when you start to feel that the memories or imaginings in your head you access on your frequent dissociative experiences are real, and feel that the real world is fake and dreamlike...well it's not pleasant)
 
Now, any RC dissociative like 3-meo-pcp, 4-meo-pcp, and methoxetamine are not researched fully, or hardly at all and need to be treated with up most caution. Lets not pretend that any dissociative/NMDA-antagonist is completely safe, especially those that are research chemicals.

With PCP being potentially neurotoxic I'd always assume that any research chemical dissociative is potentially neurotoxic; with ketamine it has been researched that there is no permanent damage, and Osley's Lesions have been proven against in primates and humans due to having a highly different metabolism then rats, but this safety for ketamine is caused by it being a bit of a 'receptor slut' especially at higher dosages. I'd assume that is the true narcosis it causes at higher doses which is NOT found in many of the RC dissociatives, thus I'd assume there is a fair chance that those (like methoxetamine, 3-meo-pcp etc.) could be more harmful with prolonged use.

To answer the question of the topic starter; I can only speak for ketamine and nitrous oxide, but plenty of people already spoke for DXM so I assume that's fine. For ketamine the long term effects would be much deeper understanding and knowledge of your own conciousness, mind, personality and such. It is a great, if not one of the best, tool for self exploration and understanding. A lot can be learned from the dissociative state, also in terms of philosophy. It has high 'psychonaut' value if used properly, bút it is also properly addictive for many people. The effects are consistent, highly serene, beautiful, véry safe feeling and escapist. Fear is simply not possible as you are dissociated from emotions. Only serenity and possibly wonder prevail. If you have any real reason for escapism in your life this could véry easily cause addiction.

It also interfers with word recall and memory formation, the only thing I noticed that persists after all ketamine effects have worn of is the word recall issue. This can last up to 5 days for me after a heavy and prolonged ketamine binge. I'm pretty sure the fact this lasta for a few days has to do with the fact there is still metabolites (norketamine) in the blood, which is still a dissociative. This can have you feeling semi-dissociated for days after a heavy more-then-one-day binge BUT it is not permanent damage. If you take a long enough break it wíll return to normal. So there is no real permanent brain damage, but temporarely loss of efficienty for certain functions.

Then there's the bladder damage; nor ketamine is damaging on the bladder and causes scar tissue. This doesn't heal easily on itself and cán be very problematic. However, if you keep your usage below or at once a week at most, it will not happen. Also, paying attention to your water intake makes a real difference. If bladder damage has occured and a person keeps a daily habbit of multiple grams up it can work up to kidney damage, which is even worse. That's some good reasons to not get addicted to ketamine.

Still as a tool for self exploration, conciousness exploration, relaxation, hedonistic pleasure or synchronising your subconciouss with that of another individual also on ketamine (it can be só deep, só very psychedelic) it is really, really wonderful. The k-hole is beautiful too. It's a wonderful tool for creativity, inspiration and absurdism and surrealism too. The dissociative state by nature is absurdistic, and if you're into absurdist art (I am very very much so) it has a lot of advantages.

Also; the fact there is no permanent brain damage, just temporarely fails of the word recall until you take a long enough break and the fact the only organ it is really nasty to is the bladder and only with repeated seriously high doses for a longer amount of time, still makes it fairly safe. I'd say out of all dissociatives with current knowledge of them, it is probably one of the safest to experiment with. It's nearly impossible to overdose, and unless you use more then a gram a day for months or years you are unlikely to ever have a lasting negative side effect at all. Out of all currently known dissociative I'd say with some certainty ketamine has the best safety profile, with overdose being close to impossible, brain damage being pretty much proven against (serveral different studies all show that ketamine 'damage' reverses if you take a long enough break, thus it being not actual damage but more the metabolites interfering with normal brain function) and organ damage being very unlikely unless you really overdo it. I'd say once or twice a month is pretty much safe and really all you need if you want to do it for exploration, inspiration and occasional fun.

The only problem is making sure you don't become a more-then-a-gram-a-day user, which the first few months or years or ketamine use may seem 'impossible' since 'how could one function in such a state', well believe me, it IS possible. In june and july I found myself using about half a gram a day, for up to 9 days in a row with occasional one or two week breaks. Strange enough, functioning on ketamine is possible once you're used to the effects enough. Not because of tolerance, as 40-50 mg gets me decent effects, 80-120 mg gets me very strong effects and 250-300 mg is a guaranteed K-hole, but because I know the state so well. Any motoric function I'm used to doing, like rolling a joint, drawing, speaking, walking, drinking water etc. I can do up to the point where I litteraly can't move, which is only in a K-hole, meaning that as long as I'm not in an actual K-hole I can function at home or at parties or at a festival. I can also stand and walk on the combination of ketamine and 3-4 whippits of nitrous, most people twice my size fall over while subjectively still being less overwhelmed by the intensity. It's pure habituation, just like holding a deep conversation with a stranger about a deep subject on LSD is much easier the 50th trip compared to the 5th or so, it's not tolerance, it's getting familiar with the effects.

So yeah if you want to safely explore dissociation I would advise ketamine as best option, but I'd advise to keep usage at most at twice a month to prevent addiction.
 
A general sense of "going insane"

So true, had this on a high dose of MXE. It was unbearable.
 
All this information has been really helpful. I'm supposed to meet the Kat later today & I feel a bit reassured that I have more to expect than just a descent into Oblivion. I'm just not sure how to completely prepare for the expierence. I suppose like the psychedelic expierence, all that I can do is surrender myself to it.
 
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